whiteflame

UNVOTE

Wryly wrote:

Hi all, I'm super busy today and will be on later tonight

Welcome in! Have you heard the good word? Would you like to?

Thoth wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Who are these Weaboos you speak of? I know of the twelve tribes of Israel and they are not among them!

I really, really, really hope this isn't just horsing around and you actually RNG Jewish people. (Does just "Jews" come off too much like a slur there? Serious question.)

God’s chosen people? Why yes, I do believe they don’t mind being called Jews.

ILikePie5 wrote:

i think after everyone gets their thoughts in, we should at a minimum press the extremely low activity players for a claim. try to avoid a shining situation

Amen.

Thoth wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Oh, do you read aloud often, my child? I’m particularly fond of the stories of Samson, Solomon and the Sadducees. What are your thoughts?

Who are these Weaboos you speak of? I know of the twelve tribes of Israel and they are not among them!

Kohai wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Thoth wrote:

Hey all of you guyth, whathth going on? Howth the game progrething?

Oh, do you read aloud often, my child? I’m particularly fond of the stories of Samson, Solomon and the Sadducees. What are your thoughts?

me no like da sadducees. Dey make me sad, u c

Now I’m sad too. Sad you have rejected His teachings.

Thoth wrote:

Hey all of you guyth, whathth going on? Howth the game progrething?

Oh, do you read aloud often, my child? I’m particularly fond of the stories of Samson, Solomon and the Sadducees. What are your thoughts?

ILikePie5 wrote:

i think 5 is true bc it’s doesn’t make sense for scum to use their lie for it. even without it, everyone knows lunatic usually has multiple vanillas in the game

Yeah, that crossed my mind too. I can’t fully dismiss it, but it’s a pretty distant second possibility.

Banana wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Banana wrote:

ching Chong bing bong very good points u make. U might be one of my ppl

We are all united, my child.

will i be born again?

The Kingdom of Heaven awaits!

Banana wrote:

ching Chong bing bong very good points u make. U might be one of my ppl

We are all united, my child.

ILikePie5 wrote:

To put everyone on the record and help future reads/DPs, everyone should say which of the 5 mechanical pieces of information they think is fake and why.

I will say prima facie, I think 1 is true because claiming TP as scum is basically suicidal.

2 I think is true because Luna loves Tailors and

3 and 4 don’t make sense to me side by side. What’s the point of talking about 4 if 3 is in there. I think 3 is the mafia made up lie. 4 doesn’t make sense coming from scum.

5 is most likely true because Luna usually has multiple Vanilla’s in his set ups.

Alright, I'm going back to normal for this. @Mikal it was just for fun. I might slip into it from time to time, though I'm not keeping that up all game.

I think 1 is probably true. I can't see Mafia throwing out the possibility of a single TP as something to keep everyone else on their toes.

2 is unclear. Scum have incentive to make everyone question each flip and a fake Tailor would also mean that we're underselling whatever other PRs scum has access to. I could see Luna using one (he has before after all), but I'm not sold on it since he hasn't announced it in the past.

I suspect 3 is true. There is some incentive for scum to use this so that they can straight claim their characters, but that's only going to get them so far. Less certain on this one than 1.

I don't get 4. It's the biggest outlier of the group and just seems like unnecessary detail, but it's also something that doesn't really stand as helpful to scum, at least not that I can see. I don't see what's wrong with having both of these as part of the game, since 3 specifies how we should (or in this case shouldn't) subdivide character claims and the other deals in how we should look at individual claims. If one is false, it's 3, though I suspect neither is.

And 5 is the other one I'm mainly considering for the fake. I could see scum using this to give themselves cover for Vanilla role claims. It's another instance of "this is something Luna does" that he could just have included here, or that enterprising scum could use to their advantage.

So it's between 2 and 5 with a smaller chance of 3. If I was picking one, I'm siding with 2. I don't think Luna gives away that information if he includes a Tailor in the game, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if scum wanted to make us paranoid.

Mikal wrote:

Doest thou god smite thee if yee doesn't not speak his language

God loves me as as with all of God's children. The days of Sodom and Gomorrah are far behind us. I merely bask in his beneficence!

Mikal wrote:

Doest thou serve thy king or queen. Take up yonder arms and claim thy liege

Your speech has made a marked improvement, good sir! Though I must confess, I have no liege. Worldly lords and kings pale in comparison to the one true king.

Mikal wrote:

Oh this is great

We have so much to be grateful for, I agree!

Mikal wrote:

Ate you British and have to talk like that lol

Despite our differences with King Henry VIII, we welcome all! And I know not what you find perplexing in my speech.

Come hither and take heed, my child. Your presence is requested and all are welcome.

VTL: Wryly

Have faith and take heed, for I hath arrived.

And lo, the game has started without me? Forsooth, this lack of ping disturbs me.

DP1 mislynches are bound to happen, so frustrating as it was (and I feel for Mago there), it's almost a given most games. I'm with Luna on this, getting flip info at least provides something to work with.

Alright, so some thoughts on how things played out. I'm not going to comment on the ongoing discussion of the modkills, only how they impacted things.

Losing Luna DP2 was a pretty big problem. As I said to him and Pie, if I understood his justification better (the initial reasoning he gave did not make sense to me), I would have at least townread him through the end of that DP, largely a combination of seeing some behavioral towntells I've seen from him and his apparent frustration with the theme.

That being said, I'll fully admit I wasn't onboard with a Mikal lynch at the time and I should have been. That was largely because I couldn't see a world in which he sees my Lightning Rod claim and claims another redirection role almost immediately afterward. That's WIFOM thinking and it should have been outweighed by other elements of his claim.

Then we get to DP3 and even I was starting to be convinced that Mikal was a reasonable lynch... only for a sizeable amount of the DP to turn on Casey and hammer them overnight. The lynch DP3 should at least have been between Bullish and Mikal, and I still don't get this decision. Uncertainty over the Dream was not a good enough reason to ignore what was pretty behaviorally consistent play from Casey, an admittedly weak early softclaim and a huge risk in having been visited overnight.

By DP4 it was obvious Mikal was scum. If he hadn't gotten himself modkilled, he would have been lynched.

DP5 was almost all about Helz, and frankly dude, your efforts to manipulate me almost backfired. I considered the Shining lynch early and that consideration only got stronger as the DP went on. Your sus of Bullish and Shining and your team's subsequent kill on the former had me almost dismissing all of my reads on Thoth and just defaulting to Shining the moment I entered DP6. It's the reason I told Pie that I was planning to go with my gutread against him and lynch Shining.

And then DP6 happened and the spiral was real. I could see a lot of what Thoth was doing was at least behaviorally uncertain, especially given his chat with Helz, so a lot of what happened there - inconsistencies in what he told me the previous DP and gaps in his logic - weren't moving the needle much for me. The decision to backtrack on the DP4 reveal of his claim, however, tilted me, as did the whole "I'm the heaviest, so I'm the Soldier" justification, which was just straight up not what his PM said. Shining's "Uranium is Bomb" stood out to me too, but at least it was somewhat in line with other flips in the game in terms of showing a clear use case and effect or something specific to the chemical makeup. So the only thing I was hanging onto as a possibility that Shining was scum was that Helz had strongly scumread him before exiting the game, and that wasn't enough.

Anyway, good game to scum. Pie's right that this partially came down to errors Thoth and I made in those external chats, and I'll own mine. Shining, you're on notice. Expect to have to claim early upcoming games. Expect to have to participate. I know you've complained about how often you're mislynched before, but scum play like this is going to draw attention to your absence.

Bullish wrote:

If thoth just voted whiteflame and went afk, I think whiteflame would have self hammered for the win.

Thing is, you’re not even wrong. I told Pie in chat when he asked early in DP6 that I would have self-hammered at the time if I had to make a choice then and there.

Anyway, if it wasn’t nearly 2 AM, I’d post thoughts on the game, but those will have to wait until tomorrow.

That's game regardless. So was I right or wrong?

Thoth wrote:

Should I scumread Shining for taking the same position?

I don't fucking know. Scumread him or don't. I've given every argument I can think of and responded to your points with every piece of information I have. I don't believe there's anything more I can add to substantially sway you. So go ahead and vote.

Alright then, let's end this. If I'm wrong, I'll take the L.

VTL: Thoth

Also, why did Shining bust out the Vaporizer wiki link after people were hard-sussing Helz? That's a planned bus f I've ever seen one.

He did a pretty obvious thing, which was look up the role that you'd claimed Helz had provided as the name of his role in chat with you. Claiming it's a planned bus when you've acknowledged you were in the wrong for not looking it up yourself is just... what are we doing here, man?

They were all written by ChatGPT?

And they all have similarities. I've pointed to those similarities. I've pointed out how yours doesn't match those similar characteristics despite being produced by ChatGPT with what was likely a similar prompt. Your response to that so far has been that ChatGPT generated your outlier PM for... reasons. What am I missing?

Let's also not forget that Bomb is a scummy claim when you're not townlocked enough that you're likely to be the kill anyway.

I don't know, man. Soldier's pretty scummy to me and the claimed DP4 delay, reveal that that and the justification behind it were a lie, that's pretty scummy. By contrast, Shining was one of the last to claim and almost certainly would've been a potential lynch if he hadn't claimed at that point. What did you want him to do? Refuse? Make something up like you did?

Thoth wrote:

How about this from Shining's DP1:

I also don't fully understand why Mikal is getting shit for the whole Kohai IC thing.

So once again, we're pointing to a post from DP1, this one just being a statement that it was odd Mikal was getting flak for saying Kohai should have used his IC differently. I remember that. I gave him shit over it, too. I agreed with Mikal. Should I scumread Shining for taking the same position?

If my justification stands out, it's only because the other justifications are wild, and I don't think anybody was sussing the clear and obvious justification of having a hidden role because Oganesson has barely been studied.

So you're seriously going to argue that there are no uniting characteristics of the justifications we have so far? Nothing at all that would make yours stand out compared with all of them? And you're right, many of us weren't sussing you when part of your justification was that you had a hidden role due to the lack of study into your element. You've clarified that you faked that part of your justification. That doesn't help you.

I did ISO Shining, repeatedly. I just didn't end up finding much noteworthy that you didn't point out already.

Every single post you've given that says anything about Shining behaviorally has reduced him to null. If you're actually town, you know for a fact that he's scum now. Are you telling me there is absolutely nothing he's posted all game that would indicate as much to me?

Thoth wrote:

Helz also said later that he assumed his role would be called Vaporizer if it had an official name, but that he had never heard of a role called that. I assume he knew about that role and was tricking me into not looking it up.

Alright, I've had enough of this back-and-forth. It's 12:15 AM here and I'm not going to spend all night engaged in this rereading of your chat with Helz or all the WIFOM logic over and over. So I'm going to make this simple:

Give me any reason to townread you that goes beyond you tying yourself so closely to Helz.

Give me any reason to scumread Shining.

If you want to convince me, that's what I need.

Thoth wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Because it is by far the weakest logic out of all of them. Read back through all the flips we have, scum and town. None of them just say "it has this generalized property, thus you are _____." They all point to specific roles these elements play in different environments, behavioral patterns, discovery conditions, chemical bonds, and nuclear physics. Even Shining's role directly relates to Uranium's use in bombs. How does yours comport with any of those? For that matter, "heaviest" is just a weird delineation when it comes to elements. It's the heaviest by atomic mass, but it's not the densest. That would be Osmium. Why is heaviest the measure Pie would select and not density? Why not point to literally anything any element has over all over elements on the Periodic Table and use that as a basis for the Soldier? It's weird, man.

And are you going to tell me that Mikal and Helz let me claim that, if all your points are legitimate? And this does make sense as the measure of heaviness because it's periodic table of elements mafia. You can see the atomic mass written right on the reiodic table entry, at least if your table goes that far.

Yes. It wouldn't be a first for you to just claim without talking to your partners about it. And that's not responsive to the point I'm making. I didn't say your element wasn't heavy. I'm saying your justification stands out a lot compared with every single flip we've seen.

Why are you talking about getting modkilled now? You're talking about in-game choices you made... all the way back in DP1, as though that somehow defends you against anything I said. And no, I don't believe you tied yourself to Mikal in any way. Where are you getting that?

If I'm scum now, I've been scum from the beginning, so, yes, it does make sense to bring up choices that I made all the way back then. Mikal was hard townreading that slip even though he didn't say that it totally townlocked me.

Yeah, and decisions made in DP1 aren't tied to any results or activity beyond what's posted in the DP, so no, they aren't very informative. It's all a lot of WIFOM. Do I think Mikal would pretend to townread your claim? Sure, plenty of us did. That doesn't mean he townlocked you. Mikal said multiple times in chat with me that he was sussing you, so no, this doesn't work.

I literally quoted your specific responses, so yes, you did provide contradictory answers. Yes, you did use the capitalized word "Vaporizer" first publicly in the DP. And I only have your word that all this is explained by the contents of a chat you can't show me.

Helz called it Vaporizer with a capital V, although, now that I'm looking at it again, that might just have been because he started a sentence with it, not because he was necessarily using it as a proper noun. Helz described his role as anything targeting the person gets vaporized, other than, presumably, his ability. I interpreted this as Pie's justification for Rolestopper.

And your story changes again. Lovely. This is not helping you.

Thoth wrote:

Disregarding the fact that U is for Uranium... Bombs!, how do you justify going from this:

Uranium to Bomb is such an obvious 1 to 1 that I’m wondering if this is another “Cobalt is Magnet” situation.

To this:

The "Uranium is Bomb" claim is not great, either, as it looks most akin to Mikal's claim out of all the ones we've seen so far.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you sussing the claim because the justification is too clean?

Yes. I thought that was pretty clear. It seems a bit obvious and easy for someone to come up with on the fly, as I think Mikal did (though he clearly used the Redirector as a basis for claiming Magnet).

Thoth wrote:

Despite seemingly tying myself to Helz later, can I get some towncred for being the only person voting him at the end of day 1?

...why would you get credit for an extremely weak early bus that was never going to achieve a lynch?

basically just blanket null reads Shining because apparently he hasn’t posted enough to get any reads (not accurate)

I'm not saying that Shining has posted nothing, just that there wasn't nearly as much to work from there as with some other players.

You read him as null and didn't go through with an ISO on him. That's what I'm pointing out.

the decision not to look it up after Helz said it that specific way is beyond me.

Again, I had no reason to think it was the role's official name. I figured that Helz's justification said something like, "you have role X because you vaporize things", and that was Helz's nickname for his role.

You said he capitalized it for you in the chat, effectively giving the role a name, and then walked it back. You never once thought it was a good idea to check and see if he may have slipped? Really?

If Mikal and Helz were in scum chat with me, do you think they would let me change my story like this and not provide me with a fake claim yesterday before I claimed Soldier today?

I'm not convinced they're involved in anything you're doing here today, and the delay out to DP4 seems to have worked pretty well for you, so... yes? And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they are upset with you.

Cool, responses at last.

Thoth wrote:

Nevermind. The justification has just come down to “it’s the heaviest, therefore Soldier,” which seems baffling

Oganesson outweighs the last scum because it's the heaviest element. How is that baffling?

Because it is by far the weakest logic out of all of them. Read back through all the flips we have, scum and town. None of them just say "it has this generalized property, thus you are _____." They all point to specific roles these elements play in different environments, behavioral patterns, discovery conditions, chemical bonds, and nuclear physics. Even Shining's role directly relates to Uranium's use in bombs. How does yours comport with any of those? For that matter, "heaviest" is just a weird delineation when it comes to elements. It's the heaviest by atomic mass, but it's not the densest. That would be Osmium. Why is heaviest the measure Pie would select and not density? Why not point to literally anything any element has over all over elements on the Periodic Table and use that as a basis for the Soldier? It's weird, man.

I'd also like to bring up the Connor/Luna fiasco from day 1. If this gets me modkilled, so be it, I might be about to die before Pie gets on. You'd have to believe I tied myself to both of my scum partners super aggressively while setting up the hidden-role claim that only pays off if I make it to the end.

Why are you talking about getting modkilled now? You're talking about in-game choices you made... all the way back in DP1, as though that somehow defends you against anything I said. And no, I don't believe you tied yourself to Mikal in any way. Where are you getting that?

DP5: Claims Soldier, spends a lot of the DP evading or holding off answering questions about what was communicated between him and Helz in chat, giving sometimes contradictory answers (“Helz told me that he was 2x Rolestoppper” vs. “He did not use the term Rolestopper in our chat” vs. “I did ask him if he was the Rolestopper and he confirmed that he thought that is what his role is normally called on here”), stating the role “Vaporizer” for the first time publicly, and giving weak reasons for townreading Helz.

I don't believe that I ever gave contradictory answers. If it sounded like I did, I think I've clarified it. Again: Helz claimed something that sounded like Rolestopper; I suggested that's what his role was; he agreed but said that it wasn't called Rolestopper, and instead suggested Vaporizer without claiming that was his role's official name.

I literally quoted your specific responses, so yes, you did provide contradictory answers. Yes, you did use the capitalized word "Vaporizer" first publicly in the DP. And I only have your word that all this is explained by the contents of a chat you can't show me.