whiteflame

He said it’s at the mod discretion if he gets modkilled or not for breaking character. That’s after he already broke character once

It being mod discretion is a given for a role like this. Where did he break character?

I don't mind the push on Ultra, either. Much as he has posted some short reads, I'd like to see much more in the way of participation from him before the end of the DP, preferably a complete read set with some more insight. Even with his read on me, he said he had a slight townread on me for scum hunting (wouldn't argue I've been doing as much of that as I should) and then changed to intuition. I just don't really get his thinking and I'd like to pin him down better before the DP ends. A claim might be necessary if Ultra is just not forthcoming, but for now, that's where I'm putting my vote.

VTL: Ultracrepidarian

Magoroth wrote:

Kohai’s scum. There’s way too much shit going on with his fake claim shit that this just feels like another one of his terrible scum games. Why would the mod force you to drunk-post then ultimately say “ya know, actually you can post normally too?” I think Kohai was just going for a soft-claim of drunk, fucked it up, and is now trying to salvage it.

So... where has he dropped the drunk posting or said he didn't have to do it? I get sussing Kohai at this point for a bunch of reasons at this point, but where are you getting this one?

Alright, I'm caught up this morning and... yeah, that is a lot from Kohai. The TMI on the game mechanics and how many choices scum got is particularly striking, it's just such an odd thing for him to call out so specifically and then fully admit he lied about it. And the tumble from there is confounding:

He says he wanted to test reactions to the number in #513

Then he just shows a lot of frustration and defeatism in #538, talking about getting himself modkilled (please don't), putting himself down (come on, man, don't do this to yourself), saying he completely misread Luna, and pushing for his own lynch.

Needless to say, this outweighs my OGI considerations with Luna, but I also do get where Banana is coming from. I've seen crashouts like this from scum before, and I've also seen instances where someone put themselves into a hole with their plan as town and just keep digging for a while. I think it's more likely the former than the latter, but I want to give Kohai a chance.

Kohai, just explain where your head was at. What were you aiming to do by testing reactions? Is there nothing to glean from them at all? Just lay out your thinking here, at least give us some reads to function from.

Alright, promised myself yesterday I'd get some actual sleep tonight (seriously been averaging just a few hours the last three nights), which means shutting this off early. I'll be back on tomorrow.

Mikal wrote:

"Bro, kohai and thoth are begging me to mod kill you. Its retarded as fuck. Pie does it one game and now this shit starts happening"

...Seriously, are we doing this? I get that you're basing a lot of your thinking on this, but man, I really didn't think we'd go to quoting Discord PMs in DP1.

Just looking through the remaining players. Not enough to read into with Casey, very little from Magoroth, very little from Rex. I'm null on Thoth for now, mostly minor thoughts so far that come off as NAI.

Mikal wrote:

Because speech impaired roles are always functionally vanilla. Yes I assumed that. I assumed the same of you when you started doing it. People do it as a ploy to test reads (tim for example) or its a restriction thag operates as a shitty vanilla claim.

I'm not going to overfocus on this point since I think it's pretty silly in general, but your line of questioning focused a lot on the use of Vanilla roles in this game and how Luna would present them. If a role went by another name, that line of questioning goes out the window. Functionally Vanilla is distinct from lumped in with Vanillas.

Helz wrote:

Mikal wrote:

So luna arbitrarily decides if you are acting drunk enough. There is not a "if you miss doing it post"

I lowkey hate this.

I've seen this modifier used multiple times but never at a moda discretion. It gives you the ability to say oops I missed a post and have a justification if you dont die.

Thats what I am saying. Its like a blackmailer demand.

He is claiming to not just be vanilla but with a posting restriction that could get him killed. I kinda call bullshit but I do not know if this is normal here. Its taking a role who's only real value is using their voice in chat and insulating TPR's from the night kill and nerfing the major thing they have screwing with how they talk.

Is anyone else getting the feeling that this is out of place?

In terms of role mechanics, yeah, it's not something we see here. I believe I remember an instance of it on DebateArt way back, but that might have been a faked role. I'm not saying it looks mechanically normal, but if Kohai faked this claim, then it's just a coincidence that this is exactly I discussed with Luna back in the Frieren game. Again, it's modpsych, but it's hard for me to shrug off.

Mikal wrote:

Kohai did functionally claim vanilla

Is no one reading this dp ....

Dude, he claimed a named role. I get that the role is functionally Vanilla in terms of night actions, but your line of questioning basically just assumed he was actually Vanilla in role. I don't get that.

Since every read is just going to be "slight" in either direction, I'm going to leave the modifier off. I'm also not getting all these done in one sitting, but this is a good start.

Kohai: Town. Like I said back in #351, this comes from a bit of OGI, but I can't ignore it. I think he was frustrated that he didn't really get to roleplay as a drunkard for as long as he wanted and that it didn't end up mattering since the game ended so quickly, so I suspect he was taken with the idea of just requiring someone to speak drunkenly. If scum came up with this on their own, props, but Luna was the only person I talked with about that.

Mikal: Null. Mikal's been all over the place this game pushing reads that feel half-baked. I'd be tempted to townread him over it if not for some of his weirder takes. The Vanilla rabbit hole doesn't quiiiite saying Kohai is Vanilla, but he seems to be assuming that Kohai will claim Vanilla or at least claim to be functionally part of the Vanilla pool, which he didn't and hasn't. I don't get the continued sus on him, either. It's weird tunnel vision based on "convenient" pressure and some OGI that looks less indicative of a scum team the more I look at it. Two different people can call Mikal out separately, I don't see it as likely that Luna gave this opportunity to give away two members of the scum team. I do, however, think that's exactly how Mikal would react to that information, and much as all this is frustrating, it's NAI to me.

Banana: Town. I don't want to give too much credit for the very early softclaim, but the combination of that with the somewhat reasonable sus on Ultra and continued attempts to push it, bafflement at defense of him (just seems like a lot of doubling down if Banana's scum, don't think she'd do that), and this PM focus (the angleshooting may not be appreciated, but I don't think it's a scum move) and I just keep moving a little bit towards town for her.

Ultra: Null. I think there were some valid reasons to sus him a little based on his response (or lack thereof) to pressure and a bit of roleplay. He did come off as more playful than pushing a lynch with Rex. Hasn't really helped me nail him down since then, though. Scumreading Banana and Kohai means he's mainly looking at who's on his wagon rather than really considering the field of players, despite some light reads on me, Pie and Helz. He may just strongly believe that scum was on his wagon, but I can't say based on the little info he provided in those reads.

Helz: Town. It's good to see Helz really engaging with the back and forth so far and not hearing about any self-imposed restrictions this time around. The reads they've given so far make sense to me, and the reconsideration of how much sus he's putting on Ultra for his absence doesn't seem fake.

Wryly: Town. Really just tempted to read Wryly as town for having some good logic and explaining it well, though I know that's NAI. Noted similar issues with Mikal, doing a lot of poking and prodding into why certain people used specific terms and points of questioning throughout the DP so far. Wryly just looks pretty organized and is asking appropriate questions. More of a gutread that Wryly wouldn't do that as scum, but that's where I'm sitting with it.

Pie: Town. I like the focus on the 5 mechanical pieces of information and using that to inform reads. Providing a lot of small reads along the course of the DP and digging into thoughts on the setup throughout that look pretty good from where I'm sitting. I wouldn't say he's particularly aggressive this game as he seems much more careful. Similar to Wryly, I just think he's doing more to break down the game and establish reads than most.

Apologies for the prolonged absence, pretty busy day. I'm going to catch up and skim through posts and give some reads where I feel they are appropriate.

Wryly wrote:

I'm gonna be busy again today and will catch up later tonight.

I'm still surprised by the number of people who softed unprompted, especially considering scum were given no fake claims and this very specific kind of softing helps them narrow down which fake claims are safe.

Can only speak for myself, but there’s a reason I softed. Surprised at the number as well.

Helz wrote:

I suppose I was just wrong. WF was on Wryly not Ult

Yup, haven’t voted Ult yet. Voted Wryly just to spur activity.

Ultracrepidarian wrote:

Banana is my top scum lean currently

1 - tried to make me full claim on the grounds of an obvious joke vote, then when I didn't immediately comply with that demand said I was stalling

2 - Im heavily leaning toward number three being the lie, and banana's opening behavior with immediately soft claiming is very in line with that.

Considering the game we just came off of where Shining won the whole thing in part by just posting as little as possible, I get Banana’s skittishness. Pushing you based on the joke I get being frustrated with, but yeah, I get sussing stalling tactics this time around. I can absolutely understand her seeing it that way.

Kohai wrote:

Mikal wrote:

Okay im more confident with kohai now

I asked luna.

"Would a speech impaired role be considered vanilla"

Answer was " I cant answer questions about hypothetical roles"

Rephrase it " is a vanilla just a vanilla or would it have any additional features added to it it"

Answer was "its literally just vanilla"

So this speech impaired shit by kohai is either a farse or we have to assume in addition to the potentia for multiple vanillas he also made room to balance for a quasi vanilla in a speech impaired role

Kohai is basically claiming Russian because they drink a lot is my assumption based on his posting so far

For a full cñain: I am the Rusaians, town drunk, Yeah, I am fubctionibg vanilla. I’m forced to act frunk because our love for vodks.

So I know this is a bit of modpsych, but I buy your claim for one reason:

This is very much what I’d expect from Luna after the role I gave him in our game. He was Alcoholic. I’d outright told him I considered giving him an element to his role where he was required to behave as though he was drunk in each of his posts and he leaned into it. I think Luna was disappointed that he didn’t get to spend more time with the role (it was a compulsory RB that couldn’t prevent NKs) and I can absolutely see him using it here. Doesn’t mean it’s a given that he’s town, but it’s a point in Kohai’s favor from where I’m sitting.

Banana wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Can someone point me to the reason for sussing Ultra? Is it just the VTL out of nowhere?

just read his iso, see if it feels as odd to u as it did to me. buncha of posts that dont really establsh anything or push the game fwd and then random vote on rex. then he gets pressure, but doesnt think 4/7 is eough for a claim so he stalls it out for some reason. idk just seems sus to me.

I wouldn’t say there’s a lot there to read. After the last game at least, I can see why we’d want to avoid allowing anyone to coast, but the vote on Rex looks like he’s just leaning into flavor a little. That’s how I’m seeing it. Could be an indicator of something but it doesn’t come off as obvious.

interestin defense. lets flip this around, do you town read him, n if so why? 

I don’t see it as defensive to point out that one of four points is NAI. I null read him atm, though I want to see more from him so I’m fine with the pressure and seeing how he responds to it. That will be a stronger indicator.

Anyway, I’m exhausted and I’m still not fully caught up. I’ll read back through the last few pages and catch up the rest of the way tomorrow morning.

Kohai wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Can someone point me to the reason for sussing Ultra? Is it just the VTL out of nowhere?

1. VTL out of nowhere with poor reasoninggg behind it. Et waz literaly just an OMGUS bote.

2. He den completely disappeared

3. Haz little interactions and kontent.

4. Ergo dis is a good slot to presssire.

2-4 I get. The first is harder to read given his interaction with Rex.

Ultracrepidarian wrote:

I thought I was being funny :(

Was the vote just an extension of the Obama line then? Feel like I'm missing something.

Can someone point me to the reason for sussing Ultra? Is it just the VTL out of nowhere?

Banana wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Thoth wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Option #4 limits the possible claims to one of those 3 areas. If it just laying out the actual theme split, then why would scum post #3 at all?

I was just saying that this is a plausible example of a theme split, not the actual theme split.

And my point is that there are an absurd number of possible splits and ways to split characters with this theme. That’s my point: the presence of a theme split doesn’t put a lot of pressure on scum because it would almost certainly be difficult to parse out anyway.

i was thinking that one would be a good option for scum to choose. if we think there’s no theme split we don’t have a lot of basis to sus ppl on their claims. if we lynch people we can tie scum with other scum. it leaves us with just role analysis

And behavior, but yeah, it does basically nix any flavor analysis. I take Wryly’s and your point, there’s value in it for scum.

Wryly wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Thoth wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Option #4 limits the possible claims to one of those 3 areas. If it just laying out the actual theme split, then why would scum post #3 at all?

I was just saying that this is a plausible example of a theme split, not the actual theme split.

And my point is that there are an absurd number of possible splits and ways to split characters with this theme. That’s my point: the presence of a theme split doesn’t put a lot of pressure on scum because it would almost certainly be difficult to parse out anyway.

Well never mind lol I misunderstood you.

It seems to me that if you were told you'd be getting no fake claims but could make up any game mechanic you wanted, you'd probably want a game mechanic that offsets the loss of being given no fake claims.

Saying there's no theme split allows you to straight claim your characters with virtually no risk, which is preferable to the some-to-moderate risk of straight claiming when everyone knows there is a theme split.

It’s a fair point. I’m thinking short term on this (i.e. the first two or three DPs assuming at most one scum flip) and I can see it being hard to discern, but I take your point that it would matter a lot later. It is more testable, though, so the advantage only lasts as long as it takes to discern a split and lynch someone on the other side of it to see if the split is real.

Thoth wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Option #4 limits the possible claims to one of those 3 areas. If it just laying out the actual theme split, then why would scum post #3 at all?

I was just saying that this is a plausible example of a theme split, not the actual theme split.

And my point is that there are an absurd number of possible splits and ways to split characters with this theme. That’s my point: the presence of a theme split doesn’t put a lot of pressure on scum because it would almost certainly be difficult to parse out anyway.

Thoth wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

I don't know about anyone else, but a theme split for stereotypes seems a lot more subjective and much harder to nail down even if it exists.

Option #4 gives a plausible theme split of race/gender/organization. Or it could be race/sexuality or any other split between types of groups.

Option #4 limits the possible claims to one of those 3 areas. If it just laying out the actual theme split, then why would scum post #3 at all?

Mikal wrote:

I think kohai has a genuine role that makes him speak in a certain way. Wf has never faked something like that in 10 years of playing with him so just makes me wonder if there was motivation behind it

I've been enjoying playing up the theme a bit and leaning into my character. Yeah, it's something I haven't done anymore and I'm enjoying doing it. I don't know what other motive you think I'd have.

Wryly wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Wryly wrote:

Hi all, I'm super busy today and will be on later tonight

Welcome in! Have you heard the good word? Would you like to?

If it really is just one word, absolutely!

But why stop with one? There are so many to dig into!

Wryly wrote:

Riiiiiiight so.

Very tempted to townread the people who have softed early, since that's dicier for scum to do when they've been given no fake claims. It is so hard not to imitate the stereotype I was given right now, but scum already know there's a feminist, maybe a Jew or a Catholic, maybe Asians. I'll hold off on adding to that list for them for now.

I wonder if Lunatic gave them the full list of all the other game mechanics before letting them craft their own fake mechanic, or they had to think up one blind?

#3 seems the likeliest culprit to me, but if I'm right, no one who softed early gets any town points. In fact, I might have to put them on the sus list. It's a good plan: make up a "there's no theme split" mechanic, so now you can straight claim, so now you can soft early to farm town cred. It's not like Pie to soft early anyway, and whiteflame handwaved #3 being the likely culprit with a vague "that would only get them so far". I'll need to think more about this.

Alright, then I'll give more of my thoughts on the third option. I'll note I didn't dismiss it entirely, but I did have two picks that I think are more likely (2 and 5). The benefit of being able to straight up claim characters is one of the reasons to support it, as is the fact that Luna has included theme splits in his previous games. Looking back at those games, though, both of them had relatively clear splits: antagonists/betrayers in Ted Lasso, creators vs. creations in Alien. I don't know about anyone else, but a theme split for stereotypes seems a lot more subjective and much harder to nail down even if it exists. It may still make it easier to character claim if they can make out that there is no theme split at all, but the split being not obvious is a given with a theme like this.

Mikal wrote:

God's chosen people aren't the jews. Its def the Palestinians.

Now now, let’s not get political. That’s for sermons.

Kohai wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

UNVOTE

y did u unvote?

Wryly is no longer a wayward soul and promised to participate tonight.