whiteflame

I've held off on it for a while, but I will hammer before calling it a night if no one else has. I'd like to see an answer to this, don't know what I'll get.

Alright, then I’ll rephrase my question into a request: give me a scenario where you envision being able to use the protective role you have before you become the primary lynch.

Situationally here no. We have a pretty hard bad claim from Shining everyone agrees makes them scum and I am gona die because why? I refuse to say what type of protective I am? As I make myself an open book and answer any question given to me about why I did what I did.

I don't get this, Helz. I'm trying, but I don't. You have said so often throughout this game that we are overly focused on single players. Here we have a wagon and a counter wagon, just like you've advocated for. You're on one of those wagons. Shining is a nearly guaranteed lynch. You likely will be as well, and the reasons have been articulated multiple times. You keep paring those reasons down to just "I'm unwilling to full claim so everyone wants to lynch me," but that's obviously not true. I'm not going to relitigate the reasons I'm sussing you, but I'm hardly alone in having my concerns. And you can say you're just an open book, but you're not. You're withholding a piece of information that could at least give us some mechanical reason to townread you, even if that is only the result of not getting CC'd once you do. I'm trying to find reasons not to sus you, and you're making it harder to find them.

The problem I see is nobody really gives a fuck. Haven't herd a single person hit up Rex or Wryly and ask how much I was pushing to be read midrange town and specifically as 3p in guild chat. Of every player here you would probably be the one that can recognize how hard it is to float a mid range read for kill insulation as well as keep a door open for a 3p claim and even get people to read you not just as scum- but a very specific kind of scum. Sure I was low effort this game but damn thats a hard play. For half assing this game I am not mad about pulling that off. If chats woulda been released you would understand how much effort I put into being read as exactly that. I very much want to have an inverted LYLO faking a neutral claim someday. Wont be this game though.

I've heard from Wryly and she made a good point about something you said in the discord chat. If you were blatant about your strategy and why you wanted to look a certain way, sure, that's a WIFOM point in your favor. So is just saying you post a lot in your discord chat. I get why you want that to be a reason to townread you, but it's not a lot from where I'm sitting. Having Rex and Wryly confirm that you did indeed do this isn't going to move the needle much for me, either, since they've both come out sussing you nonetheless.

I do not see why me revealing details about my protective function helps either solve my role or does not directly harm the town. Thats not spite. Its just cold logic.

So you think there’s no value in potentially outing a hard CC? I get your distaste for focusing on flavor, but there are a good number of players left who are unclaimed. I also don’t see how it harms town when it’s a role you have stated you won’t be able to use for at least 3 NPs (Tracker next NP, get the item the following NP, use the role third NP). If there’s value in retaining that information, especially since doing so will result in your lynch this DP or next at the latest, I don’t see it.

At this point, I’m willing to just hammer this. I get the idea behind shifting over to Shining, but we’re going to have to cross this bridge sooner or later, and it’s really just about the order in which we do it. I see Helz basically admitting that he knew he’d have extremely limited access to his roles and was fine with it, and that he’s also just refusing to claim his protective role out of spite at this point. I get being frustrated, but this is ridiculous. If I have this wrong, I’m giving Helz the floor to explain why before I make my call.

He said it in guildchat

Ah, then I didn’t miss it. Thanks for the info.

Well to be blunt I saw my role as weak. Doing something every other day vs me having access to a 24/7 chat with my ability? Quite bluntly I felt I could have a much stronger impact and better time playing this game by having that especially starting out with a confirmed town to work with. I feel that I am a monster with or without any role ability and applying my experience in a guild chat was the correct move. Give me the ability to coordinate a team and I can move mountains in this game.

A Tracker and a protective role don’t seem particularly weak to me, even if they do require some setup to make it possible to use them. I get the thinking, but at the cost of no mechanical confirmation or mechanical benefit to town… wouldn’t have made the same call, but it’s yours not mine.

Pretty simply a cost benefit view. The way I see it people are demanding details just because they want to know. They are not asking "What does this do to prove this dudes alignment." Its just that its the norm here to reveal PR with zero positive impact and large damage to town. This is why I keep referencing the learned behavior thing. People doing a thing because thats just what is done while not stopping to ask "What is the reason behind the thing I am doing" (in this case, demanding specifics of a protective claim)

I don’t see the benefit. This comes off as “I’ll never have access to this role, but I’m willing to deny town this info just to spite them because they haven’t given me a good reason to provide it.” That isn’t true anyway - Pie has pointed out that a specific role can be CC’d while a vague “protective role” is more difficult to CC - but I have to wonder what benefit you see in keeping this info secret since you likely will never have access to this role.

Fwiw, I do recall Helz at one point saying "wait, so I could have used my ability at any time? I may have been dumb for accepting the invite."

Ah, I missed that. That’s at least something in favor of the choice to join a Guild, even if it’s questionable whether that was just putting on an act.

Alright. As far as I’m concerned, both you and Shining are fine targets for a lynch this DP. Both of your claims are baffling in different ways, mainly based on your justifications. I agree, behaviorally, you have more support for being town than Shining does.

What’s pushing me over the edge with you to put you ahead of Shining is just how adamant you are about withholding this role information, and the more I keep reading, the more it becomes clear why. Both your roles require a prep period to use, and I’m not the only one who has called out that it’s odd for you to take a Guild invite when you know that will limit access to your roles even further (since you have to get two DPs where neither the Guild protective role you mentioned or the recruit are used).

Setting aside the fact that the character has never had goggles, you chose the Tracker role to pursue. Fine. That means you’re at least two NPs off from using this protective role that you’re so secretive about. Worse, it’s three because you’re going to use that Tracker. So either you’re banking on the game going much longer so that you’ll get access to that role (weird with two scum dead and a high likelihood that your Guild will try to recruit or protect itself at some point), or you’re keeping it secret to avoid a potential CC on your claim.

I get that you don’t like the focus on mechanics, but I can’t make sense of your choices this game if you’re town with this role. Why accept the Guild invite when it would further limit access to roles you would need 2 NPs to get? Why be so intransigent about a role that will take at least 3 NPs to access? I don’t get it. It doesn’t make behavioral sense to me. Maybe you wanted to use Guild chat to build your towncred so that you could look a little scummy in day chat. Maybe you just really hate the meta of seeking full role claims from players we are set to lynch and are willing to stand on principle against that. The former I can kind of respect, even if you had to know that that would make your role claim look off. The latter… well it’s either anti-town or scummy dude. Take your pick.

I’m heading into a movie shortly. Was planning to wait until afterward to decide on this hammer, but this just seems ridiculous at this point. Can you give me a reason beyond good scum hunting and a lot of posting in your Guild chat that would make me question it?

We still need one more besides me lol. Whiteflame is probably that person but he’s probably busy with his birthday stuff

I’m going to be freed up in the evening, so if there’s a hammer needs doing, I’ll do it then.

I'm just going to casually remind people that I said long ago that if there's a 3P, it's the snake boss and they would be bulletproof.

Wouldn’t be surprised if they had a protective role on the scum team or as a TP, but given that we know who the Poisoner was, I don’t think it’s as likely to be the snake boss.

Alright, with regards to Wryly’s role, it’s kind of inspired. I don’t see Wryly coming up with that without some serious help from someone who knows the show because yes, she does get a bad smell off of monsters and most hunters. The sole exception to my knowledge is Sung Jin-woo, which makes me question whether it’s a normal Cop or just one who will solely be able to tell that her target is SJW or not.

As for Rex’s role, I had that character flagged early as potential scum, though with the monster flips, it’s clear he isn’t. Some small chance he’s TP, more likely the negative utility role is a good fit and he’s just straight claiming his actual role.

Can I get an analysis of Rex's claim plz

I don’t have the bandwidth this morning to dig back. Can you direct me to the post where he claimed?

Mass claim, baby.

Agreed with Pie. If you want a mass claim, fine, but we’ll need Helz to finish out his full claim first. Especially given that he explicitly didn’t use that role and is setting up to use his delayed Tracker role next NP, there’s no excuse for this.

I haven’t caught up completely, but I have read through a lot of your posts, and while most of it is WIFOM writ large, I’m going to focus on the most relevant part.

I’m going to be blunt with you: I don’t buy your justification at all and your role claim sounds like an awful match for the character. I’m not voting tonight because it’s late and I’m going to want to think about this overnight, but what I’m missing is anything that makes me think “yeah, Mikal gave Helz Yoo Jinho as a character and gave him this role.” It’s a baffling, almost entirely out of left field choice that matches precisely no one else living who has claimed a character from the show.

What it matches more closely with is the pretty awful set of roles and justifications we got from Thoth and Alyssa. The most charitable thing I can say is that your Tracker claim at least is riskier, but it’s even built to reduce that, since it has this built in time delay. And none of that really helps fit the character better, either. It’s not like Yoo Jinho has to ask and wait for his father to give him supplies in the show, he just shows up with them. He does fight with his father a bit over control of the Guild he’s founding, but that’s about it. The time delay isn’t organic to his character, the Tracker doesn’t fit with his equipment. I don’t believe that Mikal just made up goggles to give town a time delayed Tracker.

And if this is your role, it just raises questions of why you’d accept a Guild invite at all. The role is useless without two NPs of night actions. You’d have to have known that recruitment was a thing and that it would render this role useless, since you wouldn’t get two NPs to use it. That means you were reliant on having some access to your other role, but you’re so intransigent about revealing it that we effectively have no way to understand why you’d even accept a Guild invite based on your claim.

All this just reeks of you having received a fake character claim, looking up the character, and trying to retrofit a role to it that you either knew wasn’t in the game or believed wouldn’t be based on Luna’s role. Alyssa and Thoth played it more conservative with their claims, but they had the same partially divorced from the reality of the show feel to them, just right enough to think they’re plausible but with a lot of problems to consider.

I’m not voting tonight, in part because I think Shining reeks of scum as well and I’m trying to figure out an order to approach this in, and in part because I’m tired and would like to approach this rested. I’ll fully admit you’ve looked behaviorally town to me for much of the game, but unless you’ve got a very good reason in the form of the second role claim for why you shouldn’t be the lynch, you’re on a very short and rapidly shrinking list.

Is there anything in the series about Jinho getting goggles specifically?

Nope.

Yoo Jinho make sense as a Modified Tracker to yall?

I’m just coming back to another 5+ pages of this, so I still have to understand the context for this statement. Yoo Jinho is almost a nepo baby of a character to start, one who is not a powerful hunter and has gear well above his level, but is utterly incapable of handling the first gate that he’s thrown into. It’s only because Sung Jin-woo was there that he survived, and later he does stand up to his father and angles to found his own guild with SJW. I can kind of get behind him being able to acquire upgrades or even new roles, but I don’t get the Tracker at all. It just seems like such a random role gain for him.

Well, I guess we’re getting into it with Helz at this point. Seems appropriate given the information we have, don’t love that Helz is being intransigent about claiming especially when he spent so much time laying into Pie about lying and now it’s clear he did as well. Leaving us to debate with REF for this long while throwing pot shots at Pie instead of just outing that he was in this guild also doesn’t help. I’m also not super fond of this “claim one function” aspect. If there’s a time to clarify your position, now is that time.

Anyway, I’m not going to be on much of today given that it’s my birthday and I’ve got enough going on beyond this. I’ll check in from time to time, but it will be limited.

While I do not even slightly understand why Pie would dig in and waste half a day for everyone harping on "Well did you tell your guild mates" or demand full role claims from a player they town read its possible it was not to the end of clearing themselves. While it looks like very poor play its not necessarily scummy.

It’s Pie, so when it comes to claims and the order in which they’re given, he’ll often push back when pushed. In a game where he’s mod-confirmed town, I’d expect him to push harder, especially if he feels he’s onto something.

The only way to disprove Pie in this situation is for TWO guild members to come forward, as we know there are only two scum left so it couldn't possibly be a gambit to save Pie's ass.

Once he takes this final step and actually confirms myself, I'm willing to work with him, up to the point of dissolving my guild entirely. Waiting for some answers from Mikal while I investigate things internally, but I do want to say one thing because it seems to be the working assumption among some people: Shining is NOT in my guild.

Dude, you are making this absurdly difficult. If Pie has incentive to run this train with two players in the game who can deny he’s the Guild Leader, I don’t see it. If he has incentive to do it with a coming Wylted flip that will confirm whether he was actually the Guild Leader, I don’t see it. He’s as close to confirmed town as you can get without two people outing themselves to give him a blaring green light that he does not need. Meanwhile, you are sitting on pertinent information that could help significantly with scum hunting since someone clearly messed with your role and you may well have told the members of your Guild your plans. Why are you withholding even at this point?

Alright, waking up to a lot of back and forth about what Pie’s plan was here and whether he lied, so I’ll just go through your TLDR which seems to encompass the major points.

Did Pie lie about the information they needed to confirm themselves? Absolutely 100% yes. They locked up the day demanding info that had zero bearing on them clearing themselves. Their entire rambling about needing confirmation if Rex whatever was just an utter lie. Nobody can deny this.

I don’t recall Pie saying that he would be cleared based on Rex’s claim. He was pushing for Rex’s claim because he was confident he could town confirm himself by demonstrating that he’s the Guild Leader. When you’re that sure you are mod confirmed town and someone just got an erroneous result on you, the focus becomes on the how of it. Pie wanted to confirm Rex was town and, knowing that, how his result could have been altered. Someone either knew Rex’s target (a Guild member) to Frame him or knew his role and Redirected him to make it look like his target was scum (still likely a Guild member).

Is Pie a guild leader? Maybe. If they are they are confirmed. Are they confirmed? No, not in the slightest. Town acting like they are confirmed is just stupid imo.

So Wylted flips tomorrow. He’s the claimed Guild Leader. Pie’s dead automatically if his flip confirms as much. Also, we have good reason to believe there are two other people in this game who are still in that Guild. That would make three players between them and Pie who would have to be scheming as scum to make up this lie, since the other two could just out him now and we’d lynch him immediately. So yes, I’d say he’s as close to confirmed town as it’s possible to be.

Pie pushing to lynch Rex? Thats scummy as fuck. They declared they believe Rex was not scum and now pressure them to reveal information or die because...? Sounds scummy as hell to me. You do not town read a slot then advocate to kill them when they do not do what you want.

Likely frustration. Pie’s confirmed himself, Rex is being intransigent and refusing to help by providing evidence only he and one other unknown person knows that could lead to scum. Pie would rather get the information, but Rex is still here posing a trade.

So here we are with an almost certain TvT stand-off. You can keep asserting that none of this makes sense, but it’s all pretty clear to me.

I’m going to wait until you come back (presumably tomorrow) to give up the info on your remaining Guild member(s). We have the time to wait, even if it’s pretty absurd that you’re pushing this information trade after Pie just confirmed himself town. You being the un-CC’d cop gave you some leverage, but this is too much.

That doesn’t prove anything about Pie. He could just be saying that to buy time or if he’s scum so he can get another action in. He’s also not going to admit when he gets caught

Are you assuming another day action? Because that’s the only thing he could be “buying time” for, since he will be lynched this DP if he doesn’t confirm himself. There’s no room to play here, no way he gets around it or just refuses to admit it. If he cannot town confirm, he’s the lynch. Plain and simple.

Hey buddy. Do you promise you don't / won't steal the win?

No incentive for me to do it even if I could.

Dude, getting a red check on you and still making demands like you're not the one with evidence against him.

If Kohai or Shining or someone were like "yeah I'll prove my innocence later let's just move on" no one would let them get away with that shit lol.

If anyone said “I will be the lynch this DP unless I can 100% prove I’m innocent” after getting a red check, I’d strongly consider what they’re saying, regardless of who they are. Don’t see anyone else expressing that kind of confidence.

Pie's the default lynch if he doesn't prove himself, so the only question is whether we seek the information he's trying to get from REF first or second. Pie's putting himself on the line, so my take is REF goes first.

Sorry, I'm too used to Pie's ways. He's a slippery bastard as scum and always pleads for more time. Shining is definitely the lynch here based on the feebleness of his claim, so if Pie has a way to prove his innocence, I'd rather get that out of the way first.

Nah, he's not getting out of this. If Pie doesn't prove his innocence this DP, he's the lynch. Plain and simple.

What the heck do you want me to say? Make shit up?

I think you are making shit up, so...

It actually doesn't: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Lightning%20Rod

But it also doesn't really matter. The role isn't the problem. The justification is just... wow.

Hang on, why are you guys asking for my justification and not Awesome's? Anyway, mu justification is dogshit and its obvious Mikal was lazy with AI. My justification is I am silent, but I have a strong desire to win and that makes me a Lightning Rod (Its not actually a LR, mine is just single target).

Yes, that's how Lightning Rod works: you target someone and redirect all night actions directed at them to you. I've seen some other versions that work passively, but that's how the role is usually spelled out. So... you're silent and have a strong desire to win? That's it? And that makes you the Lightning Rod somehow?

Also, we have gotten Awesome's justification, which was the whole "Airmax invested in the site" line he brought up earlier.