whiteflame

I'm surprised you thought Rex had given me the bomb, I felt pretty null-read DP1.

I had no clue who he'd given an item to or whether that would be the Bomb, but I kept thinking about it all game long. Had to just risk it previous NPs, but when it came down to two, that really was the tie-breaker between you and Banana. Figured he was more likely to townread you than her in DP1.

Well played, despite your setbacks.

Couple questions. Why Banana NP3, and why did you pass up going to MYLO just to frame Thoth?

Appreciate it, and same to you.

So I think Banana would've been more of a wildcard. She might have been convinced, but it would have been a rough road to get there and I wasn't sure I could. My other concern was that I thought Rex had given out an item on DP1 (he apparently didn't), and I was really concerned it was the Bomb. If he had done that, I figured you were much more likely to have gotten it than Banana was.

As for why I passed up on MYLO, that's POE. Thoth would have been confirmed, so I would have had to just kill him. So it would have been me vs. Luna again, and I would have had to argue with you and Banana over it to get there and win you both over. Same problem, higher wall.

So... yeah, that was a lot.

To start, I'll just say that rolling scum 3 games in a row is brutal. I played this as well as I could, but I'm 100% taking a break from mafia for a hot minute after this, if only to stop the cycle.

As for what happened with Kohai, I'll clarify the basics. We had worked pretty closely on the Kleya Marki claim, and asked about it, so we knew she wasn't in the game pretty early. I had worked up a set of fake claims, and Kohai seemed to take to one of them, even to the point of asking about the role (it was verified not in the game). He mentioned claiming Strengthener, I said that would get him lynched. A couple of hours later, he went for it with the Strengthener, and the rest is history. Strengthener claims tend to work better when there's a lot of established role fuckery, and we had none of that. I get what he was going for, but it was pretty frustrating to have done all that work on a claim and just have him go an entirely different direction with it. Didn't help that he was absent after that.

And for those who were interested, I landed on Bix as my character claim through some elimination of likely characters and a well-timed question. The role claim came about when I asked about a Cop, found out there wasn't one, and figured town was relatively low on investigatives given we only had one night manipulation.

Regarding the setup generally, I was a little frustrated with it. We had one night action between the two of us, and while Bus Driver is good, it basically meant one of us was always in danger. My day action was good for reducing possible available characters and roles, which is something, but I was effectively just absent anything except my NK after DP2 since everyone had full claimed by then and I had Luna's role. Scum needed some serious responses to town roles, and especially without the Bus Driver, it was pure luck I got that far.

Also, that Restless Spirit role is broken as hell. Usually, those only last one DP beyond the death of the player and they don't count for parity. It wasn't a big deal here, especially since Wryly probably would've voted for me in the end, but that role is just too much.

Still, congrats to town on this one, particularly Wryly and Luna with whom I actually enjoyed the discussion of the last DP. Felt less antagonistic and more fact-finding.

You are misunderstanding me. You are claiming you got a list of a bunch of roles correct? I am assuming a lot of the claimed roles would be among that list

You'd be correct.

I have a hard time believing you didn't townread Magoroth or Banana if either Petitioner or Restless Spirit were on your list

Again, my list gave me good reason to buy all but one claim in the game. And I’ll point out that I did buy the Petitioner straight up, especially since it was already mechanically demonstrated, it was just a question of affiliation. Restless Spirit is clearer affiliation-wise at least, and I townread Magoroth the moment he claimed it.

I assume you're claiming Watcher, Roleblocker, and Bulletproof were not on your list?

I asked about mentioning roles that aren’t on my list, and as long as this doesn’t just become a list of roles I check off one way or the other, it’s fine. I can say some of those aren’t on my list, but not all.

Agreed, I don't think we should normalize modkilling ourselves. Fuckin A, magic was the first person to do it in a long time, now suddenly everyone and their dog is talking about doing it. First wylted now wryly. "Breaking the rules is cool guys!"

Glad it’s not just me.

I know your scum but humor me for wrylys sake: Are you able to divulge literally anything? Like say if there was a JOAT would you be able to see what abilities they would have? I just have a hard time imagining you having a list that tells you every role and still doubting that certain roles exist, like bananas, rexs, mine, etc

Thought I was pretty clear on that. I would get a negative result if I had said “Watcher” and picked you. I would have had to pick “JOAT,” and no, the only result I would get is “positive” or “negative” for that role.

BTW we have just under 3 hours remaining if I am correct

Yeah, that’s about right since it’s 7 PM CST, always have to remind myself to add an hour.

This is actually a good point. Even if he can't divulge this information, wouldn't he have known that if people were claiming those roles they were likely town and not fake claims, therefore he should have been town reading them? Pretty sure he remained open about them in his POE.

Like I told Wryly, choices came down to players who all claimed roles form my list, with one pretty obvious outlier. Either everyone else was in POE based on my list, or no one was.

New plan. Post the list and modkill yourself. After you're modkilled, Mago and I will hammer Lunatic.

Made it back home!

I’ll just say straight up that I won’t do this on principle. You’re basically telling me to break a mechanic of the game for a town auto-win. If it’s a choice between doing this and lynching me, then I’ll choose the latter. I’m not good with setting a precedent where we use a tactic that the mod explicitly prohibited to face roll our way to victory.

Back on the road, will be fully available in 2 hours, but I’ll briefly respond.

Did you lynch anyone whose role turned out to be on your list?

In most instances, yes. The choice was between lynching either roles on the list with one exception.

Divulging which dead players' roles were on your list will not give anything away about the remaining roles

Stating if any specific roles are on my list is part of what I’m restricted from doing, including those who are dead. Don’t know why, either.

What reason is that?

Getting specific would require me to reveal roles on my list.

Also, are you telling me roles like Petitioner and Restless Spirit were on your list?

I can’t divulge that.

12 is a big margin for error.

I have some reason to believe that scum claims were in there, too, so that makes 3 roles that aren’t in the game.

Just a heads up before I start responding. I’m at an appointment with my wife, could be called in by the doc at any time, so my availability will be sporadic.

The main thing with your role to me is that it seems almost too weak. You're given a list of roles to choose from, if you pick the wrong role, you're fucked and town have -- what, for investigatives? Rex's 1x Tracker, which he could accidentally give to scum? 

As far as I can tell, we have two investigatives since either Luna or I are lying. Either the 1X Watcher he has isn’t real, or my Confidant isn’t real. And yes, there’s a risk that the 1X Tracker could have been given to scum. There’s a risk that I’d pick the wrong role and not have any possible confirmation. I’ll fully admit my investigative is weak, but it also gives multiple chances to find someone of that role, and if scum had claimed one of the remaining roles, it could still have verified that they are not that role.

How many roles were in the list?

12, and yes, I checked to see whether my role would get a positive result if, say, I had picked Watcher and targeted Luna. Savant told me it would show negative. If he is the JOAT, as he may well be, I would have had to select that role from the list to get a positive result on him.

Also, explain to me a world where Savant doesn't put Luthen Rael in the game.

It would not be a first for a mod to exclude major characters from the list of town characters and then give scum the option to ask about characters so that they could find them. At this point, you already know that one of us asked about a major character or lucked into a major character claim. I’ll admit that Luna has one up on me in that regard having claimed earlier than I did, but if it is the result of asking the right questions about characters in the game, then timing is less of a factor. Luthen is also a more central character to the plot of Andor in both seasons, so I’m just as surprised as you are that he isn’t in this game.

Lol chill dude, my mind's not made up at all. whiteflame's just been on the road so I knew he couldn't respond. You were here so I grilled you. I'll grill him tomorrow.

I’m good with that. It’s been a pretty long day and, as you say, there is still tomorrow.

There generally aren't non passive BP's, except for that game I guess whiteflame mentioned, I don't think I've seen it or if I have I don't remember it

I’d dig back and try to find it, but it would take a while since I’m on my phone. It’s kind of baffling because being BP doesn’t seem like something that should just go away with time.

If in mafia "passive" just means it's not a power you actively use on others, then what could a non-passive Bulletproof possibly be?

One where you have to tell the mod you want it activated. Usually has a single NP duration, like a self-doc. It does happen, just seems weird that it would come up at all and that there would be confusion over it.

In your expert opinion, are bulletproofs usually passive or do you have to tell the mod to activate it?

Most often, it’s passive. I’ve seen some activated BPs before where it was only available for one night after use, but those are unusual cases.

I'll tag him and ask then

Alright, I’m confused, what did I miss? Can someone explain what I’m clarifying? What’s normal phrasing for a passive role?

I think it was a miscommunication. I thought you were accusing me of waffling, so I was defending that I wasn't waffling because it happened so fast.

Apologies, pretty clear I misread your point. Long and short of it is that I can see value in trying to hold off on a decision for both sides, whether that’s waffling or just uncertainty.

I’m hopping on the road for the next few hours, so while I hope I’ll be around for the final vote, I’m not expecting to be.

Who said otherwise wtf?

I thought you were talking about how I wasn’t waffling. If I’m wrong, my mistake.

Has mago ever given the indication that he wasn’t active and aware of what’s happening? Because the couple games I’ve seen him in he’s been pretty alert and attentive. Also he talked a considerable deal about his role and using it correctly. Anyways I’m cool with either of them making the decision and will understand if it’s me, but for gods sake let them take their time and breathe lol 

Like I said, it would be great if he’s active too, I just haven’t seen any signs of life. And again, I don’t know why you think I’m rushing this. Never said anyone should make a decision quickly, so I don’t know why you keep characterizing what I’m saying that way. Literally never been my aim.

Is it really waffling when you hammered like minutes after he claimed? I was willing to talk it out with him and consider possibilities but you just kind of shut that shit down. Potentially maybe you thought me divulging further information would make me look town and therefor you bussed him before that could happen, or you just wanted to simply farm town cred. Either way there is no realm of reality you can call that “waffling” when you ended the day phase so fast.

I said you were waffling, not that I was. I don’t see what information you could have provided that would make you seem more townie at that stage than your character claim. As for farming towncred, being the hammer didn’t and shouldn’t have given me a lot. Kohai was widely scumread at that point.

I just get the vibe you are trying to manipulate wryly into a hasty decision when there is 0 evidence to suggest someone as active and attentive as magorath (whose also been receiving multiple pings) just would randomly decide to not pay attention in the most crucial phase of the game when he has been among our most active players recently.

I’ve repeatedly said I want Wryly to take her time and consider. I don’t see how that implies that I want her to make a hasty decision. Pointing out the uncertainty that Mago’s even around at this point just emphasizes that the decision is in her hands, not that she should make it more rapidly. As for Mago himself, I only know what I’ve seen so far. If he’s paying attention and going through the game so far, great. He can’t post beyond his sole vote, so I can’t know that that’s the case. Neither can you. His being pinged so much doesn’t prove he’s around, either, though I hope he is.

Agreed. But now looking back you were pretty quick to vote him there. I suspected him but even I was willing to hear him out. You kind of just immediately voted him and it seemed more based on his character claim at that point. Now you say it’s because of his role. It looks like at that point maybe you thought the ship had sailed and decided to just full on bus him since we were looking for a lynch pretty quick and kohai was already at l-1, maybe you thought that would give you a bit of town cred. And tbh it did, for me at least. I had you as town pretty much the whole game until now.

It’s more WIFOM at this point. Waffling on the lynch doesn’t exactly look better when the time for every DP is shared, and avoiding the lynch in an effort to hopefully spare him is something I could see you doing. I could also see you bussing at that point, so I can’t say it’s obvious to me either way.

There’s no way mago isn’t here and keeping track of things. I think he is just being patient, and honestly good on him.

I hope so, just don’t have any information to tell me that’s the case. If he’s taking his time and analyzing the game, yes, I agree he’s made the right call.

I'm just grasping at straws at this point in hopes that one of them will somehow make this not a 50/50 shot in the dark. I take it by Mago's lack of a vote that he isn't sure either, or else just wants to see this play out a bit more first. I'll be busy until later today so I'll just hammer then.

Not sure if Mago’s even paying attention at this point, since he didn’t post a vote last DP either. A shame since that Restless Spirit is pretty OP, but I’m good leaving this in your hands at this point, even if I don’t envy your having to make it.

I’ll be on the road for much of the remainder of the afternoon/evening, so I might not be on for when you hammer just FYI.

Typically when I think strengthener I think “counter to roleblocker”. Depends on the mod but I guess in theory it could counter a redirector or bus driver but we also now know kohai was the bus driver so that logic is out the door. Only thing he could have countered was me and I know I’m town.

The Strengthener claim was obviously scummy and even with the possibility of a scum RB/redirector (honestly have no idea if the Cheuffer would have been affected by one), I don’t think there was much of a chance he was town. Just seen too many scum try that one before.

With all that, I'm leaning whiteflame. End of the day, with nothing really more to go on, Luthen is so central to the plot I just can't jibe Savant leaving him out.

Like I said, I think this is a fair take since I said the same thing. Regardless of which of us it is, scum got lucky with their character questions and Savant left a big player out of the roster.

I'm not even sure what question whiteflame would have asked to arrive at his role. "Is there a role cop in the game" maybe.

Odd for me to go rummaging for a niche role like this one if I knew there was one that was entirely absent, but I get your point.

Roleblocker, why give town a roleblock and a counter to it? Makes no sense. If there was a scum roleblocker and a town roleblocker that would make more sense IMO.

Cant say I get this logic, since at the time you wouldn’t have known whether scum had an RB or other role manipulation, but I guess I get the basic idea that a Strengthener wouldn’t be there just to counter a town RB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3_PPdjD6mg

Lol, almost believable.

Anyway, I've said my piece and it looks like Wryly and Magoroth aren't deciding this tonight. We argued POE and WIFOM last DP, so I encourage both of you to consider all the available information before voting.

This makes no sense coming from you, your the king of neutral stances. I have been more into them lately, but you historically play safe.

I get trying to be neutral, but you have a case where one of the remaining two players has confirmed the role of the other. You either believe I'm scum and did that, or you believe there's a scum BG. If there's a reason to remain uncertain at that point, I don't know it.