whiteflame

Now I'd really love to spend some games as town. This was game #5 on DebateCraft and it's starting to feel like the randomizers hate me.

Well, it is what it is.

Honestly, I was shocked so many people wanted to lynch Luna DP2, didn't expect to get that one and it was pretty fucked up that he got lynched in absentia like that.

Mag1c, man, I felt for you. I know Rex was pushing your buttons a bit, but we weren't trying to go that far at all and the modkill was completely unexpected.

In terms of how we played it, part of the problem was that there was just so much internal confirmation within town. Even if we hadn't NK'd Banana (we honestly thought she was Zelda), she would have been town confirmed by using her Governor role the next DP. Thoth/Wryly were almost town confirmed the moment they claimed Link (still baffled by how that lynch went down, but it happens), Mag1c's Zelda claim would've been similarly townread (particularly with the Cop), and Wylted basically got confirmed the moment Magoroth used the Day Cop (which was a pretty lopsided mechanic to incorporate into this game, pure luck I used the Lawyer the night before).

That left Pie, Luna, and Mago who wouldn't necessarily be townread based on their claims, though when the specifics of their PMs came out, Luna and Mago basically confirmed each other and, if I gathered correctly, Pie's Watcher claim could have confirmed him based on whether he gathered the right information. None of that was guaranteed, but it meant POE shrank fast and there was no room to argue by the end, even with a Ninja'd NK and confirmation of my fake claimed character. Ugh.

I mean that’s pretty hard for me to believe. As for the strongman, it’s also a counter to the bodyguard

I don’t know what your role is or if it matters in this instance, but I’m being straight up about mine. Without a BP, every night kill goes through, whether it hits a BG or their intended target. I’m the only means of preventing a NK in this game.

Still, at this point, Wylted has support for his claim and I do not, so I’d understand if you chose to side with him. Your call.

VTL Wylted

How do you explain Mago getting the Day Cop?

I chalked the possibility of scum literally giving out a Day Cop up to it being bastard modding and I stand by that. At this point, though, it’s the only thing I can buy. Kohai mentioned there could be bastard elements in the game, and we haven’t seen the alignment changes he suggested it could be. Maybe this is it, something that makes scum look blatantly townread.

So, here’s what I don’t get at all from Wylted: he sees the flip, knows that he gave the Day Flavor Cop to Magoroth and that he saw I was Fii, and still ends up practically starting this DP with a locked in vote on me. Straight up admits visiting the dead player too.

I’ll just claim: I’m Fii and I’m BP. My justification talks about how I’m a spirit connected to the Master Sword and how I cannot be physically attacked. I’m pretty sure I’m the reason that REF’s Strongman flip is in this game.

Yeah, I don’t see a reason to drag this out. There is one obvious scum, we can work on who his partner is next DP.

VTL Rex

Why can’t it be both of them? Suppose his role that he gave me is a complete lie and my day action does literally nothing, just a role like “Give out a fake role during the day. They will receive whatever feedback you decide.”

That would be a hidden mechanic. You wouldn’t know it exists, so that would fall into a “hidden modifier.” But if you want to verify that, you can always check with Kohai.

Why would scum being able to give out Day Cop be so bastard? It’s not like it’s particularly useful to them. It could even be the case that the DayCop gives erroneous results, like a Naive Cop (or like a Cop + Lawyer combination), so it might not be that crazy.

In the OP, Kohai said:

”There are also no hidden modifiers or roles.”

So, no, not possible that you were given a Naive Flavor Cop. Either town gave you a real Day Cop or scum did.

That was before there was a Bodyguard flip, which for some reason, that I don’t actually understand, makes people think he has to be scum? Wtf? Why can’t there be two Bodyguards? We don’t know what roles scum has.

We know there are two BG roles in play. We know one of them was Thoth/Wryly. We know either Wylted or REF are lying. Wylted has additional support for his role, namely you receiving the Day Cop.

This is the type of thing I would expect a scum to say when bussing. Whiteflame was one of the first too.

Literally everyone has called REF scum at this point, so bussing is a given. And though you say among the first, several others were calling him on his claim at the end of the last DP.

You do realise Wylted’s role could easily be make-believe, right? Like, he might not even be Inventor. The bodyguard ability has thus far not been confirmed, he gave it to Mag1cman (supposedly), who made no mention of having received an item. I doubt he wouldn’t have at least soft-claimed something along those lines.

Why are you so quick to trust him?

Because it would be the most bafflingly bastard thing I’ve ever seen a mod do if Kohai gave a scum player a role that gifts any kind of Day Cop to another player. It’s not great that there’s apparently a Day Cop in this game, but giving the role to scum would be next level shitty setup.

As for the role being entirely make believe, I’m relying on you being accurate about what you know there. We know there’s one other scum beyond REF, so if you’re verifying that you received and used this role from Wylted, then I’m buying that it’s not made up.

Whether the BG gifting was true or not isn’t really all that material to my read, especially given that Mag1c was such a wreck most of the last DP.

I don’t know the answer to rhat question. I asked Kohai if a Framer would have to be a DAY Framer specifically in order to interfere with my results and his answer was “no comment”.

He did say Framers and Lawyers might exist and interfere with results tho.

That's all pretty strange. I've never heard of Framers or Lawyers affecting a Flavor Cop's results, and a day version of either would be brand new to me.

I guess the closest thing to that would be a Tailor. I have never seen such a role before, but then again I have never seen a Flavour Cop either.

I've always thought of that as being used on dead players to modify their flips, but you're right, I've seen variants where it can modify how an investigative role sees the target. Still, a day Tailor?

Okay. I got my results. I won’t say who I checked, since it’s not even relevant, because I was in fact day FLAVOUR cop, not alignment cop. All I did was confirm that someone’s flavour matches their claim. Not very useful, especially considering I don’t even know if the night action Wylted gave me does what it says it does, and even if it’s legit, I don’t know if Framers or such exist. Or Lawyers.

So now it's a day flavor cop? This keeps getting weirder. That could matter a lot since the theme split is almost certainly very simple this game. As for the concern about a Framer or Lawyer, wouldn't they also have to be a day phase role and apply to flavor instead of alignment? Is there even a role that modifies flavor for investigatives?

What’s your scum pairing right now?

At this point, the most likely person is you, largely by POE.

Giving scum a Gifting role that allows their target to Day Cop someone else would be so absurdly bastard that I'm dismissing it out of hand. For all that I don't get Wylted's logic, he has external confirmation that that's what happened, so he's town locked.

That just leaves Magoroth, who would have every incentive to just come out with a result if he was scum and get that person lynched next DP. With REF's lynch a certainty, he could effectively give himself the win, and I don't think he waits to do that. Also, much as he wasn't right about elements of his PM being oddities or angle shooting, he was specific about what those were and they look identical to Luna's. If he's scum, he'd either have to have been given that information or have bluffed it with REF and been exactly right. Don't buy either scenario.

I am perfectly fine with him Copping. I have a hunch that it may fail if he uses it on WF

Wouldn't that just make me sus? Having some role that persists into the DP and stops a day action on me without mentioning it would be something I should have mentioned by now.

That is literally the only character I even know.

Played enough Skyward Sword that I'm familiar. I think someone mentioned Navi DP1. Found Fii less annoying than the "Hey, Listen!"

I'm fine giving my role if Pie is, seems like he'd prefer to wait for the Day Cop result.

I'll just out as well. I'm Fii.

You can use the cop on me guy, prove my innocence!

Yeah... no one's wasting an investigative result on you here.

Why didn’t you give the DayCop first?

Also, how was it optimal to no lynch last DP with this role?

I'm all kinds of baffled by the choices too, doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Why give the BG away first, and with a Day Cop in play, why opt to VTNL? I guess he wanted to save it for this DP, but I can't say I understand his thinking.

That makes no sense. You just said you’re an inventor that can give items to other people to use. You couldn’t cop someone NP1

Don't get this, either. Maybe he's misunderstanding the role? I'd have reason to mistrust all this if Magoroth hadn't confirmed at least part of it.

I am beedle misspelled"beetle" . I give gifts and I knew damn well that mago would not be targeted so he got the day cop ability from me.

Also dp1 I gave magic the bodyguard and he apparently though I begged him before he was mod killed before revealing that he received an item.

Huh, alright, so you're basically confirmed by Magoroth, since he says he received the Day Cop. Don't get the BG situation, or why there was apparently a giftable BG and just a normal BG, but that makes sense of why you were sussing REF immediately after he claimed.

Last scum between whiteflame and pie. If you target whiteflame and he is guilty we lynch him. If not we lynch rex. And have this discussion next dp

Your call. I'm good with being the target.

We should also discuss who’s going to be voting first. I nominate myself because it seems you both townread me.

This DP, I don't think that matters as much since we're all aligned on who is scum, but I don't mind you being first.

Agreed. Lines up with Peatrice.

It does. Either Mago received details about the Vanilla PM as scum or he's town, and given REF's claim, it's very likely the latter.

I had to look up Luna's character. Captain Lineback is not one I'm familiar with.

Can we hold a mass claim

I'm fine with claiming at this point. We can collectively decide on an order.

I mean, there’s no question here, right? Rex claimed 1X BG at the end of the last DP. Wryly/Thoth were the BG. Rex is the obvious lynch.

Fuck it, we have 5 minutes and no time to work this out further. If we aren't getting claims from either of them (Luna is absent and Rex apparently isn't claiming for some reason), I'd rather this not be left up to a coin flip. I don't love doing this blind, but I'll go with the majority opinion.

VTL Luna

Once I see the VC, I'll make a call.

So... wait, is this really coming down to a decision between Rex and Luna?

Sorry for the insult, was trying to bait a reaction out of you. I don’t have my mind for a lot of pairings either.

Fair enough.

Why has wylted been in your POE? Apologies if you've already said

Basically the only reason I put him in my town pile at all was because he was saying his character's name was repeated twice with incorrect spelling in his PM. Beyond that, I just haven't gotten a solid read on him one way or the other.