whiteflame

Whiteflame’s shit is just logical shit that anyone can say. It’s literally just an observation on the game state, not an opinion. Anyone can say that. Plus many of them seem forced like “I need to say something here”.

You've played with me across multiple games now. As both town and scum, this is the stuff I focus on. If I start spitting out more gut reads, that should be the point where alarm bells go off. That being said, yes, there are opinions in my posts. Just because I give reasons to support them doesn’t mean everything I say is just factual.

And yeah, after a long argument between two of the more vocal players in this game, I do feel the need to insert some thoughts about them. I don’t see how my posts come off as forced, though.

honestly shocked you're townreading me.

Not sure what’s surprising about it. I found elements of the case you made persuasive, especially after re-reading the end of the last DP and this one.

Alright, I'm caught up.

The long and short of it is that I agree with Luna: I think it's more likely than not that you are both town. It's not that either of you cannot be scum, but I just don't see either of you playing this way as scum. At minimum, I don't think you draw this much attention to yourselves this DP, and in that respect, I'd say that Mag1c looks a bit more townie than Pie (frankly, I think he would have let some of this shit rest at this point if he was scum, especially since Pie's argument hasn't exactly been reeling in a lot of agreement, more just confusion and uncertainty). I can't entirely drop the possibility that this is all a very elaborate ruse by Mag1c to try and get a lynch and make it look like a genuine mistake, but if he's putting on a show, hat's off.

Pie's a little trickier, if only because I think whatever he's going for here makes less sense, both based on Mag1c's recent behavior as scum (he's much more careful than this and wouldn't commit to a convoluted plan along these lines) and based on some inferences I'm taking from what he's said about his PM, which I haven't seen Pie mention. It would not be a first for Pie to tunnel like this as town, nor would it be a first for him to push this hard as scum to get what may initially look like an easy lynch. I get the feeling it's more of the former and that scum Pie would have dropped this at this point, but given his recent absence, it's going to be harder to make a call on that.

So I'd say I have a slight townread on Pie, and a town lean on Mag1c, but it's not just about my perspective. I think we need to make an active choice here: either put a pin in this and move onto someone else, or get both claims since both sides are pretty entrenched on this. I'm not sure if Mag1c is still down for it, but if he is, then getting a mutual full claim would be a good start since I don't think this is going away even if we do pursue someone else.

As for who else to pursue, I can't say I see any reason to push Luna at this point. His logic has made more sense to me than anything else coming out in this DP, and I just don't think he refuses to take sides on this argument as scum. I don't see good reason to push Thoth, either. Again, if Link was scum in this game, there would be no reason for Kohai to suggest that he might modkill players who flavor claim. I cannot make sense of that.

So that leaves Wylted, Rex and Magoroth, all of whom are null to me at this point. I'm good with getting a claim from at least one of them as well.

Apologies for the delay in posting, busy Sunday. I can't catch up until later this afternoon, will respond to people then.

Choose who you want to claim out of Pie/Mharman.

If it's really an either/or situation, then I'm definitely going to need to sleep on it. DP just started and I already feel like I'm missing something. I'll get back into this tomorrow morning.

Really wish this DP had started sooner. I'm on about 4 hours of sleep from last night (seriously, good sleep has been elusive for about a month now), and I'm having trouble focusing on the words on screen at this point.

The long and short of it is that I can see the case both of you are making. I think there are significant oddities in Mag1c's play, but they could just be legitimate fumbles, albeit very big ones. In particular, while CCing Link does stand out as a big problem, it also makes sense that he'd be mentioned in multiple character justifications, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that he just saw the name a few times and thought that was his character. It's not great play, but it's not necessarily scum indicative, especially since the CC places him as a prime target for a lynch the next DP. It doesn't necessarily make Mag1c town just because it would be very sloppy play as scum, but considering how he's played as scum recently, it's not what I'd expect to see from him if he was scum.

As for the reasons Mag1c has given to sus Pie, the not being there at EoD is the weakest. I went back and checked and, yes, that's what Pie said would happen ahead of the game. A lot of the rest of this looks like Mag1c's frustration in response to tunneling (fair, I've been there) and the shift to focusing on him after the events of the last DP. I get why those would be frustrating, but I can't say the continued pursuit of his read or the decision to push Mag1c this DP comes off as scummy. It's not unusual for Pie to pursue someone like this as scum or town.

In terms of what we can do about it, I think the mutual claim probably makes the most sense, though I'm about to shut my computer down because I'm getting a headache. If you guys don't sort this out by tomorrow, I'll give my two cents when I can think more clearly.

Dude, I haven't caught up yet and I'm actively working on doing so while trying to respond to all these new posts. I didn't say I'm convinced yet, so let me get through it.

Exactly. And he claims he made the same mistake before. If anything that’s even worse. Help me pursue a full claim from him

I'm considering it. Give me a bit to catch up.

Banana said she had confirmable role. Scum doesn’t need to know what specifically the role is to have an incentive to kill her

I think that's reason enough to explain why she was killed. Scum would have had limited info about roles and characters going into the NP as well, so the alternative was shooting in the dark with someone else.

Be real with me. If you had seen Thoth claim Link, would you have unvoted? And if you thought you had a CC, wouldn’t you have checked to make sure? It’s so unbelievable.

Yeah, I would have unvoted. And yes, if I believed I was Link and I saw someone claim that character, I would have double-checked my PM. Fair points.

I am kinda side eyeing both Pie and Whiteflame being absent for EoD only to pop in and say “what’s going on guys?” at the very end. Whiteflame has an alibi, but why schedule interviews around EoD?

The long and short of it is that I didn't. I told Mikal I could do some night in the future. Mikal hopped on and asked if I wanted to do the recording, said there were a bunch of other people who were similarly doing their videos. Schedule's been mostly full, so I took him up on it after posting a vote and my remaining thoughts on Thoth at the time.

I don’t buy that from Mharman at all. He needs to full claim. I will also say that my action failed last night

It wouldn't be a first for someone to "accidentally" hammer as scum and play it off as a mistake, and it was certainly opportune, though from reading the end of the last DP, it doesn't look like a bluff to me. Is there another reason you're sussing him?

What was up with that wierd ass last minute push on me when I said hours before that I would be asleep for EOD? I was literally on all day before that you could have pressured me where I could actually have responded. Idk that was pretty fucking sus ngl. Other than that I was town reading magic man but now I’m questioning combined with that wierd CC thing

I have no idea what that was and it also rubbed me the wrong way. If I had to guess, I suspect at least some of those people were just focused on getting a lynch at that point and there was such limited time to do it that they just went along with the flow. Doesn't explain why you, specifically.

No single member of town has a right to overrule a group decision. He should be lynched as a matter of principle at the very least.

Considering it wasn't a group decision - several people opted off that wagon shortly after Thoth claimed and Magic himself apparently didn't want the lynch and didn't expect it would happen based on his vote - calling this "a matter of principle" seems like a stretch.

Bastard elements were already mentioned in last dayphases op so I assume him being scum is one

I don't understand the logic here. Including MC characters as part of the scum team is not a bastard element, I've done it several times in my own games. Thoth isn't auto-town just for claiming the character nor for having the lynch reversed, though I have a hard time believing Kohai would've aimed to include such strong anti-flavor claiming mechanics if scum was being given Link as one of their characters.

Well, glad the lynch got overturned, well done Banana. Pretty ridiculous that it happened at all after Thoth claimed Link, just a shame we don't have Banana around to townread for it now.

Are we officially in twilight?

I was on an interview with Max and Mikal for 30 minutes, what the fuck happened?

Realizing I should’ve pinged you on this.

We have the opportunity to get a lunch off before the deadline if you guys are on

Considering the choice is between lynching someone in my POE and no lynching this DP, the choice seems pretty obvious at this point. Doesn't look like Thoth is hopping on, but this should put him at L-1.

VTL Thoth

I have a conspiracy theory involving someone that I will mention tomorrow if I’m still alive.

I'm intrigued, love a good conspiracy theory.

For now, I’m rereading. I don’t have any scumreads.

Otherwise down to lynch any of [Banana, whiteflame, Wylted]

Any particular reason Thoth doesn't feature on your POE? You were mentioning a likelihood of one scum between Luna and Thoth earlier today.

This is public info in the discord but Mikal said he helped make the game from very swingy to slightly swingy. Best way to do that is Vanillas. So I buy that Vanillas exist, just a question of who they are. A relative no name for Vanilla makes sense. I also think the refusal to say the justification is townie.

I wouldn't be surprised if Vanillas are in this game, clocked the same line from Mikal and it came off as likely stripping out some PR(s) to change the balance. I'm a little less sure about the refusal to claim the justification, though the reason for it (that he views it as potentially angle shooting) seems like an odd choice for scum.

Just got home. I’m going to catch up then make a call.

I think we're at a little over 9 hours out from the end of the DP and things have come to a stand still.

After all this about pfps, I'm inclined to townread Luna a little, as I don't think he draws this much attention with this kind of response as scum. I believe he'd express himself regardless, just not that obviously.

I'm also townreading Magoroth a little based on that claim. Much as it is pretty safe, it's also a pretty random grab for characters. I assume scum got at least one fake character claim and she would be a very odd pick.

But even with all my slight town leans, I don't have much to go off of this DP. Leaves me with Banana, Pie, Rex and Thoth as my null reads. Anyone got strong feelings on that group?

I’m probably being paranoid, but why are you so convinced I’m Town?

I asked him about it. He said it was a combination of the question you asked about the possibility of a cult and generally feeling your posts were on the level.

But to be fair it wasn't them that messaged me, it was savant, and he didn't force me to change it either, just said some of the mods were concerned, and said if I am keeping it they will have to have discussions debated on what to do with controversial profile pics.

Just to be transparent, I got pinged about it. I got what you were going for as a response to Thoth.

I’m Peatrice. I’m Vanilla. I have a huge crush on Link.

Been a long time since I've played Skyward Sword, but I somehow do remember this character. Seems like a pretty safe claim, even if her being Vanilla isn't surprising.

I won’t claim my justification for why my role is Vanilla, because I think it would count as angle shooting, due to the way it’s worded. If there are other Vanilla they could 1) townread me for it and 2) scum could figure out who the Vanilla are (trivial) and shoot in the PR pool.

Don't really see how providing the justification is angle shooting, but I also can't see how it's worded so that's a call you're going to have to make. As for making it easier for scum to shoot in the PR pool, that's based on whether other Vanillas out themselves, which would be a mistake. I don't think that's more likely just because you provide your justification.

Alright boys, new pfp. If your offended and you know it clap your hands!

That's certainly a statement.

Wylted’s townread on Pie is something Wylted does a lot as town, trying to quick solve things. Also him trying to buddy up with Pie is something he does frequently as town.

I'll need to go back through previous games, but I distinctly recall him buddying as scum before as well. It's NAI to me.

Magoroth’s cult questioning by was something I felt was a sign of a townie ignorance. Nothing feels off about the way he’s posting either.

Hasn't really pinged me, either. Always hesitant to indicate alignment based on ignorance, but fair point.

As for Thoth that situation has changed

Got it.

I haven't said anything about a cult this game

See, this is why doing a late night ISO on limited sleep isn't great. You did mention a cult, but in the context of how people would think about the "alignment changes" portion of the OP. You were indeed not suggesting the existence of a cult, my error.