whiteflame

It’s a role confirmation at best, not affiliation confirmation.

True enough, not a lot of role confirmation to go off of this DP.

Towncred. But he also backtracked from that a little by saying the Poisoner visited him. And he was CCed on that as well

The passive CC is something I'm still trying to parse, but it's unlikely two of the same roles were handed out with different names.

Favor and town cred? They poison Mago, Shining town confirms him, and then Mago dies from poison, flips town, confirms Shining's rolecop results, and Shining ends up looking pretty good.

I think I mentioned earlier that he could be using it for towncred, just seems like a round-about way to do it. Certainly not out of the realm of possibility.

But I have lingering questions: why does scum Shining say the Shadow Poisoner visited him, and why does scum Shining fake claim a passive like that when Rex handed scum fake role cards that were perfectly safe to claim? Also, why did scum poison Mago at all? He's an easy mislynch target, why waste poison on him.

He seems to have some idea of how the Shadow Poisoner could work, might be using that towards the same end as above to get some towncred. It's not the simplest way to go about it, but assuming he's right about how it works, scum couldn't inflict the poison directly with that method so it would give him cover from being the actual Poisoner. Poisoning someone still does make sense, just a question of why Mago specifically.

As for the passive, that much I can't say. It does seem like an odd mistake to make if he is scum.

Before I went to sleep last night, I asked REF about the message someone would receive if they were Vanillaized. He said something like you are vanilla now. So he definitely wasn’t vanillaized. Now for the poison — it could be a gambit to survive the 2 DPs. Cause why would Town lynch someone who is already on the deathbed basically. And then later he claims he was cured or something magical happened.

Well, he's now saying his Watcher was disabled. Don't really get that, either. Didn't see an Enabler in Mikal's flip. Fair enough point on the potential gambit, even if that doesn't explain the apparent confirmation by Shining. He's not my main concern atm, but I'll at least consider it.

I disagree. Mago had already revealed his roles yesterday as RB, Watcher, Vengeful. He could’ve just restated what Mago said. I’d wager there’s one scum in between them. I don’t think they both can be scum.

I just don't see the point of confirming Mago's roles if Shining's scum. Yes, it was easy to do, but what's the point?

We're at 3 by my count, but fair enough to play it safe.

I have a passive called Perceptive that activates at Imperial Noble level. It lets me see which roles target me in a given night. This sounds identical to the passive Shining is describing, although he's claiming he had immediate access to it in addition to Rolecop, which would mean he would have to have started with high favor or be the Empress.

We have pretty good reason to townread Shining so far, chiefly on the basis of his Rolecop target and info, though this does look like a CC. You've each got a different label for the role and, at least insofar as how he's described it, it seems pretty clear both of these are passive. So yeah, they seem pretty similar.

We also have an explosion of claimed town investigatives (Watcher, Tracker, Cop, Rolecop) which now makes me suspect Rolecop is either a fake claim or a scum power being straight claimed for favor.

The number of investigatives definitely stands out, a lot of pseudo-CCs. I'm trying to put this in the context of access through favor, though even then, it seems like a lot. Having two be apparently accessible NP1 and potentially (assuming the Watcher is real and possible to use - doesn't seem like it from what Magoroth said) two different investigatives on NP2 seems like a lot.

In addition we have the inconsistency that Shining is claiming a visit from a Shadow Poisoner but Magoroth is the one who claims he was poisoned.

I've never heard of the role, but it's an odd thing to fake and even odder that it worked out this way.

Apologies for my lack of activity today, I'm still getting my thoughts together on the DP.

The player that stands out the most to me, both behaviorally and due to a lack of interaction, is Awesome. I'd like to change that and do it early enough that we can act upon it without it feeling like a last minute decision. We're less than 24 hours into this DP, plenty of time to contribute.

VTL awesome

Okay, I'll just out this. I have a passive that allows me to tell who visited me during the night, and something called a shadow posioner did.

Never heard of that one before. I'll say I didn't visit you.

I don't think it was Barry mafia. I think it was the last game we were mafia together with the sensor.

Ah yeah, that was the Chicago Bears game. Cop, Tracker, Sensor. Fair point, though that bore Vader's unusual hallmarks. Hard to say how that would apply outside of games he mods.

Anyway, I'm rapidly fading, going to pick this back up tomorrow.

I checked in with REF and I was wrong. It’s only Vader’s distribution of favor that doesn’t register as a visit.

Barry Mafia had a stacked town with like 3 investigatives.

I designed that game, so I can confidently say there were two: a Watcher/Tracker and a Dreamer.

Has anyone claimed cop?

Not that I’ve seen, though Wylted’s Miller does imply one exists.

Not sure what you mean by this btw, I thought it was only the Emperor's favor handouts that don't count as visits.

I’m still waiting to hear back from REF, but this is what Wylted said:

Vader said taking or giving favor doesn't count as a visit.

That seems broader than the Vader’s handing out favor.

So, let me see if I've got the basics here, and please someone correct me if I've misunderstood or missed something important:

Magoroth claims to have been both Poisoned and Vanillaized (he says his ability "lost its power"), that he didn't and couldn't commit a night action, then asks Pie why he visited him last night, which suggests he has a role that can monitor visits. I can't really understand his thinking since he would have to be lying about being Vanillaized or about the lack of favor required to use his Watcher. Don't get either one.

Wylted's story fell apart over the course of the DP and he seems to have admitted as much. I guess this was a gambit aimed at exposing something in Magoroth's play, though his story didn't hold together very well, especially since he mentioned himself that taking or giving favor doesn't count as a visit, but that's precisely what he believed Magoroth had visited him to do.

Wryly claims she Tracked Mikal to Wylted, though it's unclear what Mikal did. If Wylted's right about what Vader told him (I haven't check in with him yet), then the High Adjudicator couldn't have been used since it wouldn't have been a visit.

Shining claims he Rolecopped Magoroth and that his roles match his claim.

Magoroth comes off as pretty townie after all this. He and Shining would have to have tied themselves together with this Rolecop claim and I don't see them being quite that obvious about that. Couple that with the Poisoning/Vanillaizing (seems over the top for providing himself with cover if that's what he's doing) and I just don't see him pulling all this as scum.

I'm townreading Shining a little as well. A town Rolecop is difficult to believe, but if he was scum, I don't think he'd give Magoroth an out with that result.

Alright, apparently taking the time to make and eat dinner was a mistake. Didn't realize we'd be 5 pages deep this soon. I'm catching up.

i'm tempted to wait another day for magoroth to venge someone

He'd apparently need a lot more favor to do that.

I’m about to go to bed. I’m down to lynch awesome or mago, let me know where you’re leaning. I’d prefer not to vtnl but it could be headed there regardless if we can’t come to a decision.

Awesome coming back this late only to pile on Magoroth without putting a vote down rubs me the wrong way, but we have 15 minutes and not enough time to get into what's going on there. So the VTNL seems inevitable at this point, not enough support for any lynch.

But you remember him from the Chicago Bears game. He OMGUSed a lot, took the game really personally, played pretty impulsively, at one point told me to ignore claims and strategy and just go by my feelings (which he said are what lead his playstyle), and claimed that mechanics don't matter at all only behavior. I hammered him DP4. He was town.

That's a big part of what's holding me back from VTLing him, this does seem at least somewhat consistent with his previous play as town.

But you would've gone into next DP with 0 role confirmation after emphasizing the importance of getting out roles early so we could confirm them. Your own standards would have put you in a precarious position next DP.

I already said I have 2 favour. I’m a concubine. I cannot use any night actions unless I get favour.

So... let me get this straight. Your aim was to confirm others by night actions corresponding to their claims this DP. You claimed Watcher, a role you say you couldn't use this DP (I believe you mentioned it was your even night role), which wouldn't have been confirmable at all, and now you're saying that you are completely unconfirmable because you don't have enough favor to use any of your roles? Even if I didn't like the method you were going for, I at least understood that the aim was to be pretty equal opportunity about giving everyone a chance to prove themselves, but were you really banking on receiving two favor tonight so that you could do something to demonstrate your role?

i don't think town watchers are commonplace because they are usually seen as broken

scum watchers make more sense to me but idk site meta that well

Honestly, town Watchers are way more common than scum Lookouts on this site, so if we're going by what's common here, that's a point in his favor.

Can you move to vtnl

Sure.

VTNL

Heres the thing; If you think this issue will circle back at any point in the game, we are just perpetuating the inevitable. I suppose if you wanted to risk taking him into lylo that could potentially confirm him scum, because scum would never let him into lylo.

That's fair. I'm at odds with myself over the lynch, especially since I think a flip at this point could at least be informative. I'll hammer if there are enough people on him, but my preference would be to give him one NP to at least potentially get something valuable out of his role assuming he's telling the truth.

I can’t decipher whether mag is town or scum. Everything points to scum but I Havnt played with him enough to just finger out if he’s playing shitty so I’m okay with coming back to this later and I feel like awesome is to much of a risk to shoot

Yeah, I'm in a similar boat on Magoroth. I can see the case against him, but I'm really split on him and I'd prefer not to just lynch him at this point.

we do prob need some claims tomorrow and push from more on shinning and awesome or they can just coast if they are scum.

Harder for me to say on the inactives, but I'm also nervous of just lynching blind, and that's what we'd have to do at this point.

Mines on vtnl

Rex prob missed it

Got it, that's where I'm leaning atm.

We have four votes currently on Awesome. Is there any reason you all are on him besides a lack of activity?

What difference does it make whether I claim my character instantly or 30 minutes down the line? It would be scummy if I claimed my character first and my role(s) second, not the other way around, the roles are what is important not the character.

It seemed odd that you didn't claim them together, not that you claimed one first, though that was one of the minor oddities in how you posted it.

Oh wait, nevermind, I misread that. Yeah, I'm more pointing to people who challenged him on his claim and strategy, not necessarily sussing him fully.

I don't remember sussing him? I mean, questioning his suggestions, sure

He sussed you, this was about his reads.

I broke down what happened with Magoroth since last night in post 399, and I think he's been pretty central to where this DP has gone, especially given the full claim.

Just some brief thoughts on read lists:

Banana largely focused her attention on inactives when it came to scumreads, though at the very least, the reads on awesome and Shining came from their few posts. Always a little hesitant to townread that kind of focused attention on less active players, but this seems genuine.

Thoth's slight scum pool is more varied. The scumread on Luna feels a little more like a gut-read than a thoughtful one, since he's actively saying he liked most of what Luna had posted up to that point. Similar gut read vibes on Wryly, while the Magoroth read comes as more informed by what he's seeing and how he's interpreting Magoroth's thinking. Just seems a little off to me, a little too varied in how he's coming to his conclusions.

Mikal's been shorter on broad reads, but his initial thoughts on Magoroth and Wylted make sense, even if I'm drawing different conclusions.

I'm still working my way back through this DP, but I'll stake out my position for now at least:

I'm still pretty unclear on Magoroth, though I'd like to get some answers to the above questions for his choices with regards to claiming. Absent anything obvious there, I don't have any strong scumreads and I'm loath to lynch someone based on inactivity at this point, especially since it will almost certainly require us lynching blind if said player doesn't hop on in the next ~3 hours. With an even number of players, I'd say we have leeway to start with a NL and see what information we can get out of NP1 to inform a lynch next DP, so I'd be comfortable with a NL at this point.

I'm looking back through Magoroth's posts in particular from these last 6 pages.

Looks like he sussed Pie overnight for his sussing the Watcher claim, and the logic for that is... confusing. If scum have a Ninja as he believes, then they have little incentive to kill a Watcher. I also don't get this "Mafia Doctor," which may be a thing on other sites, but has never appeared here. Mods have given typically town roles to scum before, so I guess he's just spit-balling about one such example he's seen.

His read list is at least a little biased. It seems he sussed most of the people who sussed him (Pie, Wryly, Luna and Thoth) and townread Wylted and me for giving his points more credence. I'm usually driven to do the same, particularly when it feels like people are giving my posts short shrift, but these reads are all based on responses to his claim and ideas rather than their behavior generally, so I take them as pretty weak reads. The shift to VTLing Thoth at least fits with his past response to me in the Chicago Bears game.

The weird part is when he starts full claiming, and it's strange on multiple levels.

To start, he just doesn't claim his character at first, took him another half an hour to claim Bai Ruji. Looking at the specifics of the claim, he switches between Watcher and RB on different nights (unrelated roles where he says he claimed the even night ability despite arguing that we should claim our roles for confirmation) and then says he's the town Framer. There's negative utility and then there's this, just completely unheard of for a town player to be a Framer. He then clarified a half an hour later that the Framer was fake, pushed back on claiming it, and eventually settled on Vengeful. I haven't had time to dig into the character beyond reading the blurb Luna posted, but at least there, it does fit the character. That being said, I have questions:

First, why would you argue that you should get favor when your initial claim was that you would obtain a town Framer? I get wanting to have the Vengeful locked and loaded, but Vader would have had no idea you had such a role to work towards if you'd stuck by claiming Framer.

Second, why withhold the Vengeful claim at all? You said its usefulness would drop to 0, but if I'm understanding Vengeful correctly, you can immediately kill another player when lynched. Still seems plenty useful if it's revealed.