Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/30/2026 at 8:12 PM (post #215)
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 9:09 PM (post #214)
but u still have no results on two night kill targets, so does mafia have 2 ninjas and a roleblocker? theres still a very specific set of rules for this to make sense
Or they killed Vader
yeah i know but still, very specific things had to have happened for us both to be town here
sigh. im going wryly here.
two many issues with the second joat thing, it has to be specifcally like a 2x ninja and roleblocker, or 1x ninja 1x redirector, and 1x roleblocker for our actions both to have been prevented. just too specific of a thing for us to both be town. its possible but idk. plus thoth makes good points about the theater when i look back at dp1. i can defntly see it. we have less than an hour left, so its time to make a decision. im going wryly.
VTL: Wryly
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 7:47 PM (post #208)
Suikoden mafia, one scum was a JOAT and the second scum got two abilities. Second one wasn't called a JOAT, though, and I don't think two abilities really qualifies as a JOAT.
Ruyi Zhuan mafia both scum naturally got tiered abilities like everyone else.
but u still have no results on two night kill targets, so does mafia have 2 ninjas and a roleblocker? theres still a very specific set of rules for this to make sense
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 7:33 PM (post #204)
Okay. Can someone explain the two JOATs thing to me like I'm a 2-year-old with a tummy ache.
so wylted was a joat, what is his partner? i am claiming i got an action failed message. u have two results that didnt get an action failed message. could be explained by a ninja or a redirector, but that doesnt explain an "action failed" 4 me. so if they have a ninja, that means they have another role preventing thing. which means they are some sort of joat, with wylted being one. my question is if we honestly believe that, because if not, me and u are in conflict based on that
so the only answer we have between me and wrylys results not getting results but different messages seems to be a second joat with wylted. i think this needs to be somethin to focus on...
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 6:45 PM (post #193)
They could have a 2x Ninja, or they had a 1x Ninja and they simply NK'd Vader the first night, so I saw nothing when I watched whiteflame. Not sure. And there's precedent for Rex putting two of the same role in a game.
Ugh. I have no idea which of you it is. I feel like we're just chewing over the same stuff over and over.
no new developments, just new realizations about balance implications seems like
2 hours guys
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 6:23 PM (post #184)
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 8:14 PM (post #183)
so just gonna ignore balance and think about claims now. one of the main things i was scumming thoth for is now gone, bcuz i thot it was wierd that there was a role with 2 one shots abilities in a game with a bunch of odd/evens, but ruyi zhuan had the exact same thing. so i guess that means nothing since we can look at that game. now im kind of stuck on the two watchers thing again. like even without wylteds watcher theres a lot of investigative roles and now we have a second watcher on top of a tracker cop. like part of me wants to think that 'wryly wouldnt do that as scum' but the more i think about that its kind of a weak reason to give her a pass bcuz they could have just banked on wylted not dying. only thing tripping me up is what wylteds plan was with his result on thoth dp2. theres a chance that thoth actually just caught him in a lie and it foiled there whole plan. whats wierd is wryly claimed watcher AFTER that happened. so i dont know what her play was if she was scum here, unless she was really hoping we either wouldnt ever lynch wylted, or that we would buy a second watcher even if we did lynch him. or maybe she was just hoping to get confirmation with a result of wylteds like we originally thot, and was hoping to buy town cred from me since she was the first to claim odd/even after i did.
hmmm
But wylted was like, very very probably going to be lynched after he straight claimed DP1. I don't get this.
definitely a weird stategy if u guys are scum. i admit that. but i have such a hard time justifying a second watcher so its not out of realm to believe there was a bus intended here, or u just hoped we would buy a second watcher if he did actually flip. but there is at least basis to believe u hoped to get a result off him to use for confirmation. if thoth was town, that probably got impededed. and if u were scum u couldnt claim a result in dp3 either since use couldnt have got one in dp2 since u claimed odd night.
also we have to find some explaination for ur no result. my best guess for this b4 was that there was a ninja or a tracker, but i know i had an action interupted np2 and specifically got an 'action failed'. u never claimed to have an action fail, just that u got no result. so i just dont understand how your results make sense with a ninja.
the best possible excuse i could give u for this was that the other scum was also a joat and used like a redirect or ninja on u both times u should have had a result, and a roleblock on me or something np2. but then we have the problem of why would scum have 2 joats... so yeah lots of issues here
Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/30/2026 at 6:26 PM (post #185)
For the sake of full honesty, and I know how bad this sounds, I will say that I redid my lynch math last night and there was really no reason to VTNL wylted if I was sure he was scum. The extra DP from my Commuter was possible anyway. I'm retarded, but I'm tryna own up to it.
we already know lol it only looks good for u to finally admit this
so just gonna ignore balance and think about claims now. one of the main things i was scumming thoth for is now gone, bcuz i thot it was wierd that there was a role with 2 one shots abilities in a game with a bunch of odd/evens, but ruyi zhuan had the exact same thing. so i guess that means nothing since we can look at that game. now im kind of stuck on the two watchers thing again. like even without wylteds watcher theres a lot of investigative roles and now we have a second watcher on top of a tracker cop. like part of me wants to think that 'wryly wouldnt do that as scum' but the more i think about that its kind of a weak reason to give her a pass bcuz they could have just banked on wylted not dying. only thing tripping me up is what wylteds plan was with his result on thoth dp2. theres a chance that thoth actually just caught him in a lie and it foiled there whole plan. whats wierd is wryly claimed watcher AFTER that happened. so i dont know what her play was if she was scum here, unless she was really hoping we either wouldnt ever lynch wylted, or that we would buy a second watcher even if we did lynch him. or maybe she was just hoping to get confirmation with a result of wylteds like we originally thot, and was hoping to buy town cred from me since she was the first to claim odd/even after i did.
hmmm
we have a little under 3 hrs left
there was also a town redirector! rex loves neg util on town apparently
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 5:54 PM (post #176)
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 7:47 PM (post #175)
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 5:42 PM (post #174)
Rex obviously didn't give us a Rolestopper and a Roleblocker. Well, obvious from my pov, anyway. That's too much negative utility potential for town. Both roles are already swingy; you could roleblock a townie or you could rolestop scum. But even the positive utility potential of Roleblocker is mitigated if a Rolestopper targets scum as well.
like i said b4 there is balance issues there but no more than there is with 2 watchers an every night tracker and an even cop.
i don’t see how the two role prevention abilities is a bigger problem that 4 investigation abilities, or even if 4 investigations would be considered worse balance. or if an argument could be made that the two role blocking abilities balances out 4 investigations. Theres some wierd balance going on regardless here
Well that's true, but with a Hated and Lovers in the game there's already a ton of negative utility for town. Hated gives scum the potential for a free lynch. Lovers give scum a two-for-one. Plus Roleblockers and a Rolestopper?
hmm... mikal was a 1x rolestopper in ruyi zhuan, with mago being an odd night roleblocker. that game also had a doctor/commuter in it... wow also had a town an odd tracker and even watcher in it. i think my thots on balance are going out the window a bit now...
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/endgames/posts/2q/ruyi-zhuan-mafia-endgame
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 5:42 PM (post #174)
Rex obviously didn't give us a Rolestopper and a Roleblocker. Well, obvious from my pov, anyway. That's too much negative utility potential for town. Both roles are already swingy; you could roleblock a townie or you could rolestop scum. But even the positive utility potential of Roleblocker is mitigated if a Rolestopper targets scum as well.
like i said b4 there is balance issues there but no more than there is with 2 watchers an every night tracker and an even cop.
i don’t see how the two role prevention abilities is a bigger problem that 4 investigation abilities, or even if 4 investigations would be considered worse balance. or if an argument could be made that the two role blocking abilities balances out 4 investigations. Theres some wierd balance going on regardless here
Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/30/2026 at 5:40 PM (post #171)
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 6:31 PM (post #169)
If you're scum then you likely didn't commute, so I think the argument is that you used a role which produced her "action failed."
Absolutely, but Banana's #162 made me think she was suggesting that her action failed because I Commuted and she was moved to me.
not where i was going with that lol
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 5:25 PM (post #168)
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 7:17 PM (post #166)
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 5:16 PM (post #164)
I'm here. Made a quick dinner.
wheres ur head at right now?
I'm still leaning Thoth. I just don't get his explanation for his VTNL of wylted. He said he was ready to vote, we had him, and then he escapes the noose and we lose another townie. You being blocked and him claiming a blocking role isn't a great look, though there could be other explanations for that. I remember in Ranger's Apprentice mafia he and Mag1c had a tense scumchat; I can't imagine him and wylted together would be much better. I feel iffy about this because you and Mikal weren't very active and I don't have a huge body of evidence to go off of, but my gut is saying you're town based on what I've seen in this DP.
as far as my activity and participation goes i do wish i had more time in the previous dp's, my biggest regret this game so far has been my participation. i honestly didnt really read much of the game til this day phase which is why i was linking so many old posts, it was my first time reading many of them
Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/30/2026 at 5:21 PM (post #167)
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 6:14 PM (post #162)
bcuz ur the only other claimed role that could result in an action failed, on a night when my action failed but u claim to have commuted.
So you are suggesting that I Commuted and you were redirected? Wouldn't that mean Wryly has to have an unclaimed redirect?
all it means is one of u is lying and has some role preventing ability. doesnt point towards a specific person.
wheres wryly
Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/30/2026 at 5:11 PM (post #161)
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 6:06 PM (post #160)
ya i did np2, u were a commuter night phase 2, which means idk why i would have had my action fail that night. rex did tell me there could be other roles for why my action failed tho so its the only reason i havent been pushing that.
Why is that a reason to be sus of me?
bcuz ur the only other claimed role that could result in an action failed, on a night when my action failed but u claim to have commuted.
Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/30/2026 at 5:03 PM (post #158)
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 5:52 PM (post #153)
i already asked him this, he told me that i would recieve an action failed. kind of the main mechanical reason to be suspicious of thoth, bcuz this happened on the night he "commuted". rex did tell me however that there could be other roles and reasons for why my action failed.
I thought you blocked Pie?
ya i did np2, u were a commuter night phase 2, which means idk why i would have had my action fail that night. rex did tell me there could be other roles for why my action failed tho so its the only reason i havent been pushing that.
we have to get ready to make a decision very soon. i dont think we should wait til last minute and leave a chance 4 no lynch.
4 hrs left, are u around? we need to make a decision
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 11:32 AM (post #148)
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 12:01 PM (post #143)
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/7t/candace-owens-cinematic-universe-dp4?comment_number=104
So his protective could only have mitigated the damage. Can you ask how your role would interact with his? Like what happens if you roleblock someone and he rolestops the same target?
i already asked him this, he told me that i would recieve an action failed. kind of the main mechanical reason to be suspicious of thoth, bcuz this happened on the night he "commuted". rex did tell me however that there could be other roles and reasons for why my action failed.
will be on later got work
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 9:42 AM (post #140)
What does the setup look like if either of your roles are fake? Without a Rolestopper and Commuter, we're down two protectives. That leaves an every night Doctor and an even night Roleblocker for protection. Is that enough for a 9p with Lovers in it? The Doctor is one of the Lovers, so if he or his Lover is wiped out you lose your Doctor immediately, and you've got only a Roleblocker left for protection, which could hurt as much as help.
well i explored this a bit with thoth, and im not really seeing a ton of "protective" utlty with his role. he said rex said he cant protect both lovers with the role stop, and the commuter only works as a protect if he was able to bait scum into killing him, which he claims he was confident he would do, but it seems shakey to me that scum would have bought that personally. coming down to it, i would say a roleblock has a better chance at stopping a kill then his role does in most cases. regardless the three protectives provids jus as much a problem as the FOUR investigatives lol
Meanwhile if we're down a Strengthener and Roleblocker, we still have Thoth's protectives to make up for our Lovers liability, but we have no counter to wylted's Mirror and whatever interference abilities the other scum may have. Hmm.
i dont think town would need a counter to a 1x mirror. how would u even design to counter that anyway?
