Helz

That first point I just made is huge in my head though. If I just baited a reaction test my reaction 100% would be excitement and rolling into my planned results and analyzing with some 'hahaha, gotcha and look at what I figured out!'

Not a "Fuck you guys I am never playing again and I am gona vote to eliminate myself"

The reaction simply does not line up with the claim they were doing a reaction test at all.

Banana wrote:

does scum kohai whose voting himself bother keeping up the drunk schtick? whats the point if he is already thinking he’s doomed? why isn’t it possible he’s just town and made a mistake

It is possible. But what can I do with that? I would expect T! Kohai to explain doing a reaction test and be happy getting the reaction then dive into the results they claim they just tried to get. Not flail and rage and ATE as they self vote.

A lot of my reasoning is that I really do still suspect the other factors-

I feel everyone can aknoledge it being easy for Russia to be an evil flavor. On the global stage their stereotype is not 'the good guy' at pretty much any point in history. Russia is legendary for making nonstop bad faith actions to the point that a massive amount of the world united against them to deal with their aggression.

Then there is the role claim. It is kinda bastard for a host to impose such a loose obligation thats not even coming from a player.

Then there is the host meta question of "Would Lunatic after what happened last game and them being so upset about a mod kill slam in a mod kill mechanic this game" which is suspicious

Then there is the balance question of making a vanilla role that not only does nothing but also has an absolute negative utility that cripples the one thing it really has- its voice

Then there is their reaction and prior play today.

For me all signs point to scum. I am open to talking about it and changing my read but this feels like a pretty solid scum caught in a slip and is reacting with a hard emotional appeal. If you see reasons to town read them please point them out to me.

Kohai wrote:

yea, but it just gets me mislynched. Im just too fcking autistic for dis game.

My problem is your follow up. You deflate the claim by saying it was a reaction test. Well you certainly got your reaction. And now that you have it instead of analyzing that reaction and pointing out what you have learned you are exclusively survival focused and ignoring the reactions that you claim to have been testing for.

For me its also that I have other problems I see in you. I listed a few of them very clearly. Its not just that I do believe you slipped here. Its that I do not believe your role claim, your flavor claim looks like it could easily be scum, and that outside of these factors I have not seen much to feel you are town this game.

Im sorry if you feel like you are just to autistic to play. I am very autistic as well and it constantly causes problems for me but its something I am better at in real life because I have struggled for so long in other areas making myself grow. But really I just do not believe that was a reaction test, I have a lot of other issues with your play today that I find suspicious and I am reading your behavior right now is raw ATE.

Kohai wrote:

yea, but it just gets me mislynched. Im just too fcking autistic for dis game.

My problem is your follow up. You deflate the claim by saying it was a reaction test. Well you certainly got your reaction. And now that you have it instead of analyzing that reaction and pointing out what you have learned you are exclusively survival focused and ignoring the reactions that you claim to have been testing for.

For me its also that I have other problems I see in you. I listed a few of them very clearly. Its not just that I do believe you slipped here. Its that I do not believe your role claim, your flavor claim looks like it could easily be scum, and that outside of these factors I have not seen much to feel you are town this game.

Im sorry if you feel like you are just to autistic to play. I am very autistic as well and it constantly causes problems for me but its something I am better at in real life because I have struggled for so long in other areas making myself grow. But really I just do not believe that was a reaction test, I have a lot of other issues with your play today that I find suspicious and I am reading your behavior right now is raw ATE.

I will mention that one of the first things Kohai did in our scum chat last game as I was scum with them was to push for ways for us to distance using angle shooting and such. That said, those that care to deal with the cancer of the modkill conversation should keep that factor in mind.

UNVOTE

Im going to unvote for the hammer control. I really do want time to dig. Chances are me calling out the slip will mean I die tonight and there was something I was going to dig on later but I may now not have any later.

1 day 13 hours. We could slow walk the hammer and keep sorting.

ILikePie5 wrote:

Okay this is important. I confirmed with Luna that scum got a list of pre-made lies that Luna made.

Then I asked him how many. He said he could not share that info

So looks like Kohai is a moron and is scum

Fucking solid.

VTL: Kohai

So they are claiming a role I just doubt to begin with. And thats before considering how out of place it feels for Luna to hard cram in mod kill mechanics into this game

They are claiming flavor I think could be evil

They appear to have flatly scum slipped now

And I have not really seen a reason to particularly town read them

This seems like a pretty solid one for a D1

Thoth wrote:

Passing thought: If Kohai's role forces him to talk like a drunk Russian, presumably under penalty of modkill, what is Lunatic's standard for how drunk and how Russian he sounds? What exactly would count as a violation? Just Lunatic's subjective preference? It seems hard to define precisely.

The other part I am really chewing on is considering the site meta right now. Luna specifically having strong feelings about a mod kill last game then turning around and slapping something like this into this game? That feels out of its place just considering where Luna's head space may be at so it feels less likely for Host meta.

I am still pinged that Kohai got different information from me asking about details on the Mech list. They were told exactly 3. I was not.

Can others confirm if they were told 'a list of 3' or just 'a list'? This could be a straight scum slip.

Thoth wrote:

I think Kohai's first few posts were in Cyrillic, which points to Russian if you ask me, or possibly Ukrainian.

I did check some of that. There was a variety of languages. Most Slavic and there were also portions of just using a character map to inject random letters used in specific languages while speaking in english which made jibberish.

Wryly wrote:

Kohai wrote:

Helz wrote:

Sorry Kohai. Not Mikal. Some how some way I constantly get the two crossed in my head and I am not sure why.

Howwww???/// ve couldn't ve more diffrent if we trie

He gets people with two-syllable usernames confused, it's called Two-Syllable Name Blindness. Show some respect. Why do you think his username is only one syllable?

Also they are not typical words or names and they are both the ones in the game with a special user group declaration over their heads.

Its just a me thing and part of me playing more interactive this game as opposed to making walls of consolidated notes.

Kohai wrote:

I askked luna for klarification. He mentionned that he gave skum a list of 3 lies and skum chose between the 3 lies.

Interesting. I asked Luna and he told me they chose from a list. He did not tell me it was a list of 3 lies. Mmmm

Kohai wrote:

I askked luna for klarification. He mentionned that he gave skum a list of 3 lies and skum chose between the 3 lies.

Interesting. I asked Luna and he told me they chose from a list. He did not tell me it was a list of 3 lies. Mmmm

Wryly wrote:

*massages temples*

We are already giving this Discord exchange more oxygen than it should be given. I'm now in a position where I have to wonder whether Kohai and Thoth were discussing Mikal's post edit in scumchat or Mikal is scum and characteristically grabbing any OOG branch he can to whack town over with. OOG discussions shouldn't be tipping the scales for me like this.

Im just refusing to engage with it at all.

I fucking hate that its a subject at all. I do not like discussing OOG info and I do not like discussing moderator actions. Modkills and replacements are subject for after a game ends imo.

For their flavor claim Drunk Russian does line up. Russia and Ireland were the two that I initially thought of when I saw them softing and such. Although in my head Russia is easy to be an 'evil' thing. I would expect like Russia / China / North Korea / Iran or something to be easy contenders for bad faith actors as far as countries.

It also makes some assumption that is American / European centric there.

Russia- Large amounts of espionage and constantly threatening everyone around the world while smuggling and targeting civilians in other countries. Also crazy great hackers over there, general mistreatment of their citizens at scale

China- Intellectual property theft at scale, utter disregard for damaging the planet strip mining anything they can get their hands on and even creating massive fleets of ships to steal entire nations fish, general mistreatment of their citizens at scale

Iran- Major export is terrorism with roughly 30-40% of their millitary over the last 10 years being logistics focused creating weapons and sorcing them to terrorist cells within other nations. Even had a massive amount of their government displaced doing insurgency operations within other countries. Such a bad faith actor that they are almost universally hated by all their neighbors with is quite the accomplishment. Major mistreatment of their citizens at scale

North Korea- Weird little fat kid lying about inventing the burrito and shit. Life goal to nuke the world and threaten people. Pretty wild oppression of their citizens.

Off the top of my head I feel like these would be the stereotypes of an 'evil nation' for modern times. A non American centric take would take too long for me to even try to unpack. I would probably start naming conflicts and instances of ongoing genocide most people in this server are not even aware of.

Also a question of if the host designated specifically current day stuff. Open up all of history and I do not think there is much value in determining what nation could possibly be evil if thats the case. And this only unpacks nations and not religions and other groups..

But TLDR- I do slightly sus Russia as a 'good' character. By most global standards they are considered one of the larger bad faith actors to exist on the planet now and long before.

Thoth wrote:

I'm not caught up yet, but something I noticed while reading: who first suggested that the scum team picked the fake mechanic from a list? The OP doesn't say that. Sounds like a scumslip to me.

When you catch up I said it. I asked the host that and some other pointed questions and I believe Pie followed up to confirm. But go ahead and ask them. I also dug and got other specific details. As obsessed as everyone was with that mech list I am surprised nobody else was playing 20 questions with the host.

Specifically what I was worried about was if they were able to modify a truth it would mean one of the things is not just a lie its directly countering a truth that otherwise would have been revealed.

Mikal wrote:

So luna arbitrarily decides if you are acting drunk enough. There is not a "if you miss doing it post"

I lowkey hate this.

I've seen this modifier used multiple times but never at a moda discretion. It gives you the ability to say oops I missed a post and have a justification if you dont die.

Thats what I am saying. Its like a blackmailer demand.

He is claiming to not just be vanilla but with a posting restriction that could get him killed. I kinda call bullshit but I do not know if this is normal here. Its taking a role who's only real value is using their voice in chat and insulating TPR's from the night kill and nerfing the major thing they have screwing with how they talk.

Is anyone else getting the feeling that this is out of place?

Sorry Kohai. Not Mikal. Some how some way I constantly get the two crossed in my head and I am not sure why.

I would also like thoughts on Mikals role claim. A forced modifier that changes how they post as they are a VT? This does not make sense to me in line with anything I have seen so far on this site.

Its not just a citizen its a citizen thats kinda painful to play with an obligation that makes it easy for it to get itself killed. Im highly questioning how likely this would be in the game. Any of you old heads want to step up and give a take on if this is out of place for this site as it feels to me?

Wryly wrote:

Luna also just confirmed that 0 fake claims were given to *anyone*, so if Mech 1 is true, 3P were given no fake claim.

Good catch. That also makes 3 even less likely to be the lie.

Wryly wrote:

Helz wrote:

For 1 if I was scum and got to lie about the team I would have dropped a mafia or something. Making it so the town stops looking for alignment tells after 2 mafia die. And its just not a great lie to add or hide a Neutral.

Decent point -- if they were going to fake Mech 1, I would expect them to put 2 mafia, 1 3P, 9 town. But adding to your argument is the fact that it's still a tactic that wouldn't work for long; people would start to see through it when they had lynched 2 mafia but night kills were still happening. It could keep town busy hunting 3P for a single day phase maybe. If you're scum, you'd be hunting for a lie that would give you a much more long-game advantage than that.

3 is ehh. It casts doubt on theme but really people are gona draw connections at some point regardless if 2 or 3 scum have flipped

Mech 3 creates reasonable doubt against theme analysis, which I think is a pretty good advantage. Sure, once everyone has claimed we're gonna try to make connections and discover a theme split anyway, but any suspicion we cast as a result is never gonna stick like it would if we were certain there was a theme split. Also, as already stated, Mech 3 hands them three free passes to straight claim.

4 is totally useless for scum. People would immediately know if it was bullshit and call it out.

5 is of small use. Justifies dodging a claim a bit but by adding VT? Someone claims no role they are suddenly lower value to the town so VT is not the best claim.

Im thinking 2 or 5 and more likely 2 than 5 between the two things. Although it is itching at my mind why Luna would honestly want to disclose that there was citizens. Like.. Thats a weird thing to have host confirmed and 2 would make a lot of sense for the host to confirm.

Citizens?

Vanallia. I also have thoughts I am not interested in saying for today on them. I have zero interest in eliminating them D1.

I would rather we not dig into OOG conversations and potential mod kills or any of that mess. Plenty of time to talk about all that post game.

Looking back I was wrong about the timeline with Ultra. They were only gone like 25 minutes.

Im again more interested in their reads than their claim. I do hope this wont be another game where early D2 half the players have claimed for no reason.

I would rather hear reads than a claim. Its super early for claims

ILikePie5 wrote:

We’ll let Luna confirm, but the way he phrased it in OP, it seemed like scum created the lie

From what I gathered they were not allowed to craft anything themselves but got to pick 1 lie to be added in. So every one of those things should be written by Pie which was what someone was picking up on.

I also gathered that they were aware as they picked the lie that the town would be informed that one of the mechanics was a lie. That has some valid implications to chew on as well.

Details matter

ILikePie5 wrote:

Waiting on Luna to respond, but I think Helz may have slipped

Have fun with that. I like that you did grab onto it though even if I am slightly offended you think I would TMI like that.

When your back you should re-look at 1 and acknowledge that Ultra in hindsight does indeed appear to have been stalling. He was asked for a claim from 2 people and gave a "Hold on, give me 15 minutes" which as I pointed out was strange to begin with. I get saying yes, I get saying no, but give me time?

And then a lot longer than that passed dont remember how long and too lazy to look but from memory after like 30-45 minutes someone called out the time issue) they show back up and never claimed but instead just rambled a bit about the faked host rule thing.

It is not a big deal but it is on my mind. Particularly why someone would decide to claim but need time to do it unless I am missing something.

ILikePie5 wrote:

Helz wrote:

Thoth wrote:

The wording “Mafia Tailor” strikes me as odd. Why would any other alignment have a Tailor? Something about that wording stands out to me as being in Lunatic’s pen.

I could see it being useful for certain neutrals. Like an executioner or some kinda Neutral that ends up being able to work with the mafia team. But again- Mafia did not write the lies. They picked from some pre-made lies Luna gave them options on so that being tied to him does not indicate its the lie.

Hold on, where did he say that?

Mafia Tailor was the intro post.

In my DM's I asked a lot of questions and he told me that they picked from options. Although I do not see that info as useful to catch a slip I do see it as useful for us to reason out which of the 5 is a lie.

Ultracrepidarian wrote:

As Ive explained the vote was nothing more than a "flavor vote" as it's been called. I definitely did not expect it to cause a ripple.

Don't fully understand why I'm being integrated over an insincere vote and not being able to be perpetually glued to the mafia thread.

I can't give reads now but I'll try to later

That would help. I do not see anything of note from your vote but I do have other concerns. I am not asking you for your claim but giving reads would be very helpful.

Could be. I do not think it indicates aligned between Ultra and either of them. I am still scratching my head on the "Just give me 15 minutes" to then come back a lot more than that later and never claim. I agree that them being pushed over a flavor joke is nothing of note but some pieces of their reaction to it do have my attention.