Helz

ILikePie5 wrote:

Helz wrote:

My personal opinion (and I have no problem being the asshole here)

We should get off Mag and Mika’s. Who did what is just unhealthy.

We should acknowledge the pattern-

Very clear rules were set and a substantial amount of the player base did ignore them regarding anon.

The host did muddy the water saying they would allow some amount of the rule break

The rules were at some point reenforced and again ignored. Twice this problem happened this game alone

There is a substantial pattern of angle shooting in this community prior to and including this game. Let’s not bullshit like this is an isolated issue or split hairs about how it happened

After it happening we have people excusing and justifying problems. Whatever as far as not punishing people and such but fuck man. The level of angleshooting Oog bullshit in this community seriously sucks. Let’s grow the balls to own that and move on

As Bullish said, Mikal has a history of doing this as either affiliation. It’s NAI for him, and here he was wrong anyways with Oberon. It’s not like it’s an infallible strategy. But would factoring in people’s posting schedules and knowledge of what they do irl count as angle shooting?

Like we know Luna works the night shift and if someone posted from Gerard during the day when he would be asleep, would that count as angle shooting? I don’t think cause you’re asking everyone to ignore what they know about players

You are utterly missing the point here. It does not matter if them doing that was AI or not. Its that its bullshit and should never happen in the first place. This is the type of behavior that is going to make mafia players not want to come to this community and we should not excuse it.

My personal opinion (and I have no problem being the asshole here)

We should get off Mag and Mika’s. Who did what is just unhealthy.

We should acknowledge the pattern-

Very clear rules were set and a substantial amount of the player base did ignore them regarding anon.

The host did muddy the water saying they would allow some amount of the rule break

The rules were at some point reenforced and again ignored. Twice this problem happened this game alone

There is a substantial pattern of angle shooting in this community prior to and including this game. Let’s not bullshit like this is an isolated issue or split hairs about how it happened

After it happening we have people excusing and justifying problems. Whatever as far as not punishing people and such but fuck man. The level of angleshooting Oog bullshit in this community seriously sucks. Let’s grow the balls to own that and move on

/backup

I really love the work you are doing. Super cool stuff thats a massive quality of life improvement. A few concepts I feel could be benificial-

1- Spoilers (Like the kind that hides walls of text behind a cut, not the kind that just blacks stuff out until clicked) Helps to consolidate information such as walls of multiquotes while allowing it to be referanced

2- When replying adding in link to the replied to comment. This makes a massive difference to keep up with what someone is responding to without having to dig through threads for context

3- Automated vote counter auto closing threads on hammer. Pretty standard thing on just about every site with a vote counter. Allows hosts to control if twilight even exists or not

4- Page numbers on top of ISO function. Really small detail but if you ISO someone right now you gotta scroll to the bottom of the page to move forward or back. Tiny quality of life feature

5- Allowing messaging like the forum is. I hit a wall last game trying to submit my last will to the host. My message became reformatted into the chat box function and made my large LW a trainwreck. It would be nice if there was still some way to message outside of being forced into the chat box. I ended up having to send a text document to the host to convey my last will because no function on the site would allow me to convey the information.

A few ideas on the development side. Feel free to ignore any/all of them but I appreciate the work you are doing creating a cool platform.

Mikal wrote:

I wasn't going to modkill myself. Was waiting david to get mad and slip. Sometimes you fake behavior to get reactions

So you remind me of me when I first started playing mafia. I spent a lot of time pushing the boundaries of Mafia and was ripping on peoples emotions to get reads I could use to solve games.

At some point I had to step back and acknowledge that what I was doing was hurting peoples experience. That gaining a small edge in the game was not worth the harm I was causing to others.

This is how I see your move there. You were leveraging using rule breaks to get mod killed as a way to get an advantage in a game. Sure. Maybe such advantage existed but thats a pretty harmful way to get that potential advantage. In this game I hope you recognize that you harmed peoples experiences to the point both Town and Mafia players voiced they were willing to see the game shut down before ending because things had gone too far.

I hope you reach the same conclusion I did 15 years or so ago that certain things are not worth the harm caused even if they give advantage.

I have played 2 games on this site. Both games I was disgusted at the amount of OOG and angle shooting by players. Take that for what it is.

ILikePie5 wrote:

The problem is that you can’t ignore consideration of who people are. Because the pool of players is so small, it becomes very obvious based on posting who everyone is.

As for Mikal asking those questions to Mago. I see them as legitimate questions, and it’s up to the mod to consider the ramifications of answering questions. Mikal himself as mod doesn’t answer any questions, but when in doubt, No Comment is the best answer.

I disagree.

Yeah, its a small community. Being told you need to not say who you are and do not say who you think other people are is a very simple rule. How rapidly that devolved into people hard declaring who they were was not great. When Mikal was directly warned over and over and told they should not keep doing so and until the end of the game doing it was not great.

Them asking a question to angle shoot? Not great. Sure. Blame the host for answering.

The inexcusable bit was when they were trying to leverage a mod kill from their rule breaks to shift the result of the game.

Magoroth wrote:

Julian jailed flora and had a huge last will but it wasn't displayed on NP1.

Can we get that last will?

Oh, Found it. Confused as fuck as to how it works though.

Someone with 4 games played and 3 wins at 75% has a 1502

Someone with 5 games played and 3 wins at 60% has a 1506

Interesting.

I dont get the win/loss counter elo thing. I am not even sure how to look at it on this site.

But I agree if people start splitting hairs on when a game should or should not be counted its gona get really messy. I figure some structure should be put in place to deal with egregious breaches of rules and/or hosting issues if thats going to be a function. People voting on their feelings post game if the game should qualify or not is as bad as the whole "People can enter a debate and reframe the rules of the debate mid debate" standard imo. I hate everything about the potentials that come from such a precedence.

I had fun playing with you guys this game. I was kinda sad to see things get as toxic as they did.

I think its rather unfair to blame the host for the chronic disregard of basic rules. This community and its leadership probably needs to figure that part out if its ever going to grow a healthy mafia community. Second game out of 2 I have played here and I am constantly bothered by the conduct in games.

I do think the setup was very scum sided.

I agree that Mestari's play individually was the the most impactful in the game.

I am rather disappointed in my personal performance this game. Really struggled to engage and it was actually a huge problem for me to push my thoughts with my self imposed restriction.

Props to Kohai for their deep wolf play. I woulda turned on you after Brand flipped but that shit threw me for a loop. EoD I was struggling to reconcile my reads and just kept cutting back to "I do not fucking know but in every world I look at Brand is scum" kinda thing. I am sorry to hear your stepping back from mafia and I appreciate the tools you are creating for the community.

I mean really, there is two ways to think about the roles and their relation to flavor and such.

On one side people can say "Host shoulda done X different, Its their fault we could not figure things out with how they made things"

On the other side people could say "We should not be so dependent on host meta and flavor for our eliminations and should use analysis"

Dope art btw~

Felt like the entire thing boiled down to “There might be a wolf in the guild, so you! Give me a full role claim!”

”I will tell you this much that’s not damaging, ask me anything about anything”

”Fuck no! Just give me the erroneous information of your role now!”

Annd somehow it ate an entire day cycle between that and pie slow walking their reveal while demanding information from Rex

Well I’m not sure stalled is the right word. I reveled what I was willing to and said I would die with the rest. The only reason anything more got revealed was a guild member leaked it.

I 100% would have just kept asking people to talk to me and use analysis until I flipped given there was no real case in the situation to begin with past the paranoia that a scum could be in the guild.

Yeah, your mech was exelent.

I will also say my banana read was awful.. I was not only wrong I was very wrong and even pushed my guild to recruit them in the early game >.<

I had very strong positions on Thoth and Alyssa and was suspicious of Mag1c but Banana gave me the slip~

That was never a thing. Its not about being scum read to make the game harder.

There is strong advantage in keeping yourself as a soft town read. If you are a hardcore town read you can not really be killed in day chat and the mafia team will want to kill you.

Yeah, the making people think I was neutral had no real value other than the challenge but the read of me was exactly where I wanted it. And really, how many players can call in a neighborhood exactly how they want to be read not just as potential scum but a specific flavor of scum plus nailing the exact degree of being town read they want? I feel I nailed that and there was genuine value in play for doing so even if it bit me in the ass over something silly.

Didn't mean to single you out there but really joke or not and good intentions or not its an OOG thing that had large impact on the game. My first posts D1 I just had you as host confirmed town with the reasoning that if it were a real slip the game would be re-rolled and such.

Maybe my reasoning was good or bad. But regardless tons of other players also reacted to it. I think at one point you were put near or at L1 very early and it very much did impact the game.

Exactly what do you think would have changed if I claimed BP? If anything that would have been more damning given my situation appearing neutral and crippled any ability for me to make moves in the future.

I will also say I specifically only told guild chat I had a protective function because I wanted to leave the door open to FPS gambit any sort of claim as the game went forward.

Objectively when you look at it- me full claiming gave nothing to help sort my slot and would have been harmful in both the optics pushing me closer to the elimination as well as crippling my utility to push my win condition moving forward when considering the game state.

Pretty much why I was desperately shoving people to just talk to me and read me and ask me anything at all. But it felt like everyone turned their brain off and just wanted that one detail for absolutely no reason. Correct me if I am wrong- But can a single person in this game explain why the detail of what exact protective I was would have helped the town? Or even how my role claim to begin with really helped sort me?

Lol. Yeah, I was so absolutely convinced your claim was fake. I had more knowledge than people not in guilds about what existed in the game and I just felt your claim was impossibly weak from a balance standpoint. I should know better than to make assumptions about what the host may or may not put in the game.

Yeah, but the group of mafia players here is tiny. Its next to nothing to shift the meta and really if it grows I suspect more people will also ask the obvious question of "Your demanding information or threatening to kill a person, exactly what would you even get out of that information?"

I will beat that horse to death and laugh at every player who is town and just turns their brain off killing people for not doing something 'just because its what people do'

Order of Operations.

It defines exactly how roles interact in what order.

For example- Lets say you have a bus driver that swaps 2 positions. Ok, thats simple. But in what order does that happen?

What if Kills happen before swapping and protects happen after? The host could nerf the doctor in such a way and make a swap prevent heals.

You have no ability to break down the mech information on actions if you do not know the OoO. And if a host has no OoO they will end up having to make decisions on potentially game altering situations as they come up that they never considered designing the game adding the highest level of bastard into the game.

I truly do not see a way to deal with role madness mech analysis without having a defined order of operations. Even if its a blind setup and that OoO is never provided it should absolutely exist.

But yeah, While I was not going down with the intention of 'teaching the town a lesson' I do hope this situation can slightly change the meta. Demanding role details should come with a purpose. Post game we realize counter claim nonsense would have been between worthless and just damaging and in hindsight we can reflect on how an open policy kill on a player voicing sound reasoning for not declaring specifics was damaging. In my head I was thinking about end game situations where I was known to have some kinda protective function and the Mafia having to sort out how that would work (while baiting the kill onto me which I could prevent)

Just some thoughts but yeah, you guys can expect this kinda obstinance from me every game forever. I will go off that and shrug as I am mislynched over and over and over before I cave to site meta I just feel is not productive play.

Yeah, a good bit of that was on me though. I worked pretty hard to be read exactly as a mixed town read and specifically suspected of being Neutral. Kinda feel like I pulled that off perfectly but it blew up in my face with the timing.

The elimination itself was basically a policy. The fact I openly refused to give a full role claim was a meta issue here. Will be again and again in the same situation to be blunt. I did not see how me giving more details past a 99% role claim did anything at all to solve my slot and kept shoving people to give reasoning and pointing twords my guild chat behavior. While I was intentionally scummy to an extent to insulate myself from night kills and set up for my own personal goal.

Just a heads up I set weird objectives for myself in games to make them harder for me for the challenge. In this one I decided to open wolf to an extent regardless of alignment pre game. I also wanted to see if I made it to Lylo if I could invert the game. By that I mean if I got to Lylo and there was 1 town 1 mafia I would have outed myself as neutral and tried to force the players to argue about who was more scummy instead of arguing how they were town and the other person was the scum. Woulda been fucking hilarious.

Stuff happens. Was a really fun game and although I do feel the game design was pretty slanted twords scum I felt bad for how unlucky they got over and over. That had to be brutal to deal with.

Lol. Yeah, that was a wild situation. I do not think in a hundred games I would have guessed the bad results function from guilds or how that got compounded with a mafia lawyer function.

That was a pretty fun game. I enjoyed playing with you guys.

I feel that the game was rather scum sided 'if' town actually played for their guild win cons. One thing I would change in the future is playing with that dynamic in some way. Simply changing the alignment name with a designated win con of being able to win with the town would accomplish the exact same balance while turning the game into a somewhat complex multiball. Outside of that I feel scum still would have a slight advantage if town did not have the divided alignment function. Things like the alignment result change as guilds looked at etch other was a pretty wild function that easily could have gotten people killed. Not to mention town role blocking entire chunks of their team in guilds yet unknown to them it would not role block Mafia members. There were a lot of factors hard slanted to favor scum in the game from what I am looking at that could have easily been crippling.

Some of the other mechanics were really cool. I have rarely ever seen a role that can modify the day/night cycle timing for example.

-Developing PR's is something I love from a balance standpoint. That also places a crazy dynamic where if the scum team wants to deep bus and kill their own they have incentive to do so on a specific slot opening up for more complex team play.

-The false results on guilds looking at etchother I did not really care for. Could have had its place in balance but felt a bit extra and slightly low tier bastard. Imo that should have been disclosed to guild leaders or something for the WIFOM but if it was that would have been a really cool mechanic shifting results from mech confirmed to a probability of being correct in players minds opening the door for more lies and deception.

-The way the guilds functioned were pretty awesome. Neighborhoods with special functions that could be pure or not allowing for a lot of complex play. I particularly liked how Pie's guild handled the fake leader reveal. That was very clever and well done by their team imo.

So for my 2 cents a few things I absolutely fucking hated

-Dead people posting in the game thread? Fucking Whyyyy. Do I even need to explain?

-The lack of an OoO? I have absolutely no clue how this sites meta is so mech dependent and you guys do not have hard designated OoO's prior to games start. Thats insanely critical in breaking down mech analysis and catching slips. Honestly should be an absolute hard obligation prior to a game starting that one exists because without it hosts may end up deciding what order to process actions as the game goes making it an absolute bastard level where the host can directly alter the game.

-The OOG fake mafia slip pre game? That was super angleshooty and it had a very substantial impact on D1 harming game integrity.

-The walls of nicknames and stuff. God that was painful to deal with. Everyone has like a current account name and an old one and a real life name and a nickname and an abbreviation? Who the fuck is Tim? I duno; and at a certain point I shrugged and glossed over chunks of information I would not have if I was actually trying hard because it was just such a pain to deal with that. It was not even until the end of D1 that I had my notes properly established because I was so confused on who is even in the game with the hosts player list referencing names I could not possibly associate with accounts. If this community grows that should certainly change.

If I had a vote on MVP

-I would say Mestari was the most impactful player on the game nailing that slip. Thoth had a point that the slip actually came from Mag1cian but it was a lucky level of right that sent the Mafia into a tailspin.

-Pie was the most impactful on the mech side. Solid actions that shifted the game substantially. Even with the hard run of town getting scum after scum the game could have very easily and quickly been lost if not for their choice of actions. (also why I agree the game was scum sided for balance)

-Mag1cMan would be my MVP vote. They showed great control over the external perception of them and had some strong plays. Getting hard town cred with the poison claim and getting the doc to out themselves was a damn solid play and they managed to shade where they needed to shoving eliminations without really taking the spotlight for doing so. Outstanding manipulation imo. I do think they strongly contributed to my elimination with vague connotations that nobody ever bothered to look at post flip. Also had the experience to know when they were mechanically boxed in and there was no point in dragging the game out. Solid play all around in rough situations. I can only imagine the Mafia team was rather demoralized from the get go and it only got worse as Pie slammed them with critical night actions.

Some other bits on my mind. I do have the intention of creating a feedback thread on modifying some of the structure of mafia rules after this game. Voicing this now so if anyone is interested they can give their feedback. Bits like having dead people chat or starting out D1 with angleshooty OOG communication was kinda bullshit. I have a longer list of small tweaks but those two things really did bother me quite a bit.

I do think people should be a bit more hesitant to follow Pie in the future. A lot of the mess today is the result of their play. Is what it is. And I truly do hope that the town kinda learns a lesson here about blindly shoving claims without reason. That shit was just dumb. I get its the metta but this is a small site and that can be easily changed.

Going to work now but I will try to keep an eye on the thread if anyone wants to ask me anything. Now that I am eliminated (actually a vote over elimination) maybe people will want something from me to use post flip? Feel free to suck all the info you want out of me.

If I had another day alive I would personally keep digging through my PoE. WF at least seemed reserved and reasonable in the situation. Pie gets an out for being confirmed even if they handled this entire day from start to end pretty poorly imo.

Shining I still doubt their role claim but I simply do not have meta on whats normal like you guys do.

Casey going ghost is alarming. Maybe just scum frustrated with back to back flips

Awesome seems to do 'just enough' to get by

While this community seems to have that problem of focusing people who are active, I would consider focusing a bit more there as a start.

I do get being suspected by the general town. I actually put in a lot of work to not just shade myself to the exact degree I wanted but also get read as the exact alignment I wanted. That part is certainly on me.

I am not fully convinced about my guild mates though. Wryly revealing my protective function sucked. Them voting me after that is what I question is scummy. On top of that they seemed to angle the things they voiced in ways that would paint me. At a glance they coulda verified to the town that again and again I was intentionally working to get myself viewed as not confirmed town and specifically working to be read as 3p.

Then there is Rex. Just went and did their own thing while we had a plan on how approach the pie situation which made that messy. Then afterwards they blew up the guild and then just ran away and hid. They fully avoided interaction in the guild chat.

Should you guys hunt between them? I really dont know. Prior to this thing I had a pretty simple PoE and was rather comfortable with the game. I very much doubt they could both be scum. But really I do 100% feel I should have been bleeding screaming town based upon my guild chat behavior. Some of the really complex details I was unpacking about what I was doing on scum trains would just be insane to scum read imo. I wish I had a more clear answer but both of my guild mates have some questionable bullshit about them and both of their reaction as this unfolded was pretty bad. From chat (forgetting the awful revealing my protective then voting me while ignoring offers to vet me in any way other than absolute claims) I would say Wryly seems more towny.