Thoth wrote:
I did not even notice that the Better Call Saul clip was from season 4. I was just fluffposting the song since it fits with the periodic table theme.
Kinda figured. If I thought it was a real soft I would not have pointed it out. Was just throwing my thoughts out as I had them digging.
Thoth wrote:
Helz wrote:
Was digging through you and came across this. I apologize if you feel any type of way about neutral pronouns and I 100% acknowledge your male pronouns but I generally try to refer to everyone with gender neutral pronouns online. Everyone on a website is just user name with an avatar and lines of text to me and the best I know how to equally respect everyone is to stay neutral.
So personally related please take no disrespect if I constantly call everyone here a neutral pronoun. Its not me denying your identity so much as me just treating everyone absolutely equally.
I was just frustrated at seeing you call everyone ‘they’ because I figured that you did so due to paralyzing fear of presumptuousness. You can call me any pronoun that you can think of, but please call me he/him because otherwise I might not realize that you are talking about me.
I will try sir. For me personally I just do not want space taken up in my head playing mafia games understanding if someone is a boy/girl/trans/gay/straight/bi/black/white/asian or any of that shit. I am never going to have sex with anyone here and just do not care about it. The biggest harm to me playing the game of mafia so far has been people dragging those details into games. Without going into detail its been hurtful to my mafia experience and real life. I just want to play a game and not offend people. So I try to use neutral pronouns ignore any racial or sexual anything and use acceptable terms like "eliminate" instead of "lynch" when I remember to do so.
I understand and respect you are Him/His/Man/Male. Forgive me if I just give the neutral because I do not want to deal with all the other shit and just want to play the game.
Actually rereading what I just posted I think I would really like to hear more thoughts that are not about flavor. I feel like the majority of your stuff is flavor focused and I would like to hear analysis..
WhiteFlame-
Their opening post #31 looked a bit awkward. I wont say more than I think there will be value in hearing about their views on how the table was divided for others even if I am not allowing myself to consider such things. Those things may be of solid value to the town and if you town read them you should pay attention when they break them down.
I liked their initial reaction to Thoth’s claim without drawing a conclusion. Their #48 question makes sense for either side digging for info so neutral there. And I liked that they had a slightly critical line with Thoth’s claim questioning their assertion that D4 is super likely. It pairs well with their assertion in #78 that its such an unlikely fake claim which I agree with. But to reflect on their mindset it again shows a player not taking a position and instead giving a natural stream of thoughts even if they are at this point going slightly IIoA.
They have a number of takes I agree with from using IC slightly differently to how the question mechanics really change flavor but I do not see that as AI. Just a skill thing they would do as either alignment.
Their readwall on #237 is interesting. I initially went weird world seeing the Banana N/A thing but Banana had not posted yet so sure.
Two questions that come to mind for me for @WhiteFlame is what they specifically town read in Mag and Thoth as well as your thoughts on Lunatic.
Thoth-
They obviously came into the thread with the absolute intention of revealing role and flavor off the bat. There is consideration of them being eliminated in recent games probably making them want to be more transparent although I do not know if that’s AI given they would want to do it as either role as a motive. The claim itself if believed I could only see for town. I do not think its reasonable for a Mafia to receive some role they have an unknown active or passive ability.
The other side of what I consider is the potential of WIFOM insulation. If town Thoths play limited the pool Mafia would want to kill exposing TPR’s. Would they consider that is a question.. On the flip side adding another level it could also be a play to insulate themselves from actions painting themselves as useless until later. Also a potential but those more familiar with Thoths meta will have to question if they would both gambit and consider such implications making a deep play.
Their #45 comment is of substantial note angling on potential of being Paranoid Gun Owner as well as Hated which reflects survival focus. This is where I see hardline survival focus. (which again, them being killed the last few games is a question if its AI) but there is absolute clear scum opportunity there advocating to not be visited or voted.
The initial exposure to TPR’s is inconsiderate if its that basic but only scum perspective sided if you do no think a T! Thoth would close scums kill PoE and also was not making a deep play for kill insulation. Overall more likely to come from town than scum there imo. But the further post insinuating they are a bad target to either eliminate or visit I very much do not care for. I also noted in #47 they feel the need to push that their role is likely.
I saw nothing from the music post past the connection it came from season 4 of a show and they referenced Day 4 in their claim. Nothing more I will say there but it was interesting that nobody even seemed to notice the post.
Past that bit their mech speculation looks null. I do see consistency in them poking Magoroth about it after voicing bad vibes about them which is good. The early transparency in #182 looks ok although looking into what they could be reading on Rex and WF I do not see much so far to go off. Im assuming gut read/meta.
Overall for a super early read I see survival focus 100% but question if its AI given the pattern of site things. That would be the only real scum indicator so far outside of questioning their town pegs. I do dislike the “Be wary of either voting or visiting me” post on #45 quite a bit. On the town side I see some consistency in read progression that I like and I do not see them making any sort of opportunistic push. I am not comfortable with their slot but do not particularly find them scummy.
Thoth wrote:
Helz wrote:
Im still chewing on how I feel about Thoths role claim. They essentially declared themselves
My pronouns are he/him, by the way
Was digging through you and came across this. I apologize if you feel any type of way about neutral pronouns and I 100% acknowledge your male pronouns but I generally try to refer to everyone with gender neutral pronouns online. Everyone on a website is just user name with an avatar and lines of text to me and the best I know how to equally respect everyone is to stay neutral.
So personally related please take no disrespect if I constantly call everyone here a neutral pronoun. Its not me denying your identity so much as me just treating everyone absolutely equally.
I have to run for an errand but I will be working up some rough read wall as I have time to pop in. I feel like enough is on the table we can fully say RVS is broken and we can dive into the game if we just push etchother and poke for information. Feel free to ask me anything. Im running my much more open play style this game.
Thoth wrote:
I do want to emphasize that I am 90% sure I don’t have an active ability because Pie answered that I would not choose my targets if I did, and that really seems like putting in a role PM. Your mileage may vary.
Interesting. Why did you feel the need to emphasize this?
Magoroth wrote:
I would like an actual explanation from @Banana as to why she thinks I’m suspicious. The point that she raises that I’m overreacting over being scumread is strange, considering she has admitted it herself that she dislikes being scumread and almost didn’t sign up for the previous game out of a fear of being mislynched by pie. So what gives? If anything, she should be seeing my perspective here.
As an aside, I rather liked Rex’s last response and I thought hes defending himself rather well; he’s not responding to his accusers’ arguments necessarily; but he is aggressive and voluntary, which is a towntell.
I’m gonna be a bit of a dick here and say that the guide Helz wrote says that the natural reaction to being scumread is to suspect the other person as scum; scum may townread someone who scumreads them. Rex did not do this
So to unpack that from memory without looking back at it- Counter OMGUS is generally a tell by dynamics of the game (specifically in games where there is no multi-ball or neutral) because scum has a full game solve. They know the person pushing them is town and they operate from that perspective town reading the individual scum reading them. I believe its an objective tell and I agree- Rex did not do this.
The major thing I got reading back through my first game here was that wolves shaded with vague reasoning. When I was on the chopping block and hard pushing them to get specific they refused and stayed vague. This bias plays into my head here as far as site meta and I do recognize it as such but I do still think Rex behavior seems scummy. Their pushes on me seem like more an effort to paint than an effort to read. (And yes, Its early D1 and I have zero issue with that as an "I want to break RVS" kina play but that is not what they are voicing.) They are instead dancing around the subject and excusing the behavior as they deflect blame and paint more. Im shifting to focus on making some consolidated post of my thoughts but thats about where my head is at on them.
If your going to go off my thoughts on that guide the other one that is in my head is Mag1cmans townread of you. I felt dumb because I somehow got the wires crossed in my head and initially thought it was a scum read but I do recognize the potential of the same dynamic. Again- If wolves have a total game solve they know everyones alignment. In such a world 'Handing out town credit too easy' becomes a problem. Psychologically it takes less evidence to confirm an existing stance than it does to establish a new one (and even more to change an existing one.) This pattern can and is often reflected in the progression of individuals reads with scum assigning town credit too easily.
While I have not circled back to that yet it is something on my mind but those would probably be the two real positions I have taken so far this game and you can trace both back to that guide if thats how you want to read my play.
VTL: RexFavilla
Everything you say just makes me scumread you more. I've never seen someone get so defensive off of an RVS votes a few pages into DP1. Tbh it was initially just a reaction test (have to do something to get the DP moving) and you're failing hard.
Also, lol at the idea that scumreading Kohai is AI because he decided to pop his Innocent Child as soon as two people voted. Completely retarded.
For Kohai I would have done it slightly differently. Maybe acted super scummy and drawn attention to get peoples reactions then pop the IC for the clear so RVS is broken in a solid way and such. But really its not an awful thing. Regardless of our D1 elimination flip we have something solid to pivot actions around N1 and we have a confirmed town to triangulate reads on which mitigates scums ability to control the elimination.
As for you the feeling is mutual that the more you post the more I scum read you. I am not sure where I have been defensive at all. Im pretty comfortable under pressure in general and really have not felt a bit of pressure so far this game. Me pushing you is simply because you have done the most scummy thing I have seen so far this game even if it is just an early D1 read.
Had you said something like "Well I was overstating my read in an attempt to break RVS and its an early D1 read" that would have made total sense from a towny mindset. But you did not just refuse to offer reasoning on either myself or the now host confirmed IC you doubled down and declared it was scummy for me to even ask for that reasoning. And now you are painting my poke at you as defensive on my part. I feel if anything its more aggressive and not in an "OMGUS" reaction kinda way but in a clearly thought out question and request for you to get some attention and pressure.
Feel free to ask me anything though. Im catching up on the thread
Until we know if anti claim functions exist I suggest we slow down on throwing around information about claims.
About as far as I am willing to edge on the subject.
RexFavilla wrote:
Helz wrote:
RexFavilla wrote:
Hmmm, Kohai is being retarded might be up for killing him. Helz also strikes me as a bit scummy right now.
Can you be more specific? With current hindsight you were just shoving the now host confirmed IC and I know I am town but both had very vague reasoning.
Just a vibe. You asking this is also kinda scummy ngl
Why should Kohai (or anyone else) clearly read you as town this early?
Because I'm town. Duh.
What about what I am doing is any sort of scummy?
Overexplaining yourself.
This reminds me of my first game. When someone kept throwing shade and when I kept asking for specifics they just wanted to stay vague.
What I see is a player refusing to explain themselves and saying me asking them to is scummy.
Then I am scummy because I explained myself.
Then their push on the now host confirmed town was reasonable for reasons they can not articulate.
Either they think Kohai is some mafia God or they are on some bullshit right here and could use some focus.
VTL: RexFavilla
With a confirmed town revealed it changes everything. Redirectives could be diverted away from or onto them. Protectives and investigative could be on them or avoiding them. Mafia team will have to WIFOM going for killing a skilled town confirmed player or letting them run wild in day chat.
Its a massive difference from people randomly going off whatever reads they have as far as reads for alignment or roles. I personally feel having that this early strongly benefits town as this should be when town has the most power roles and 'should' outgun the Mafia
Casey_Risk wrote:
Why do you give yourself these random challenges that don't improve your win odds? Whyyyyyyyy?
And here I thought people would have liked this one. I can play unhinged open town while just disregarding something thats super vague speculation to begin with at the downside of dealing with whatever awful meta of "Tell us this exact thing or die" that blew up in the towns face before (but not for a challenge)
Well now that you are our confirmed town what time you do have to provide direction would be appreciated. If nothing else that basic "Follow the sheriff" play is excellent for dealing with D1 and removing scums ability to control the elimination.
You also just massively shifted the dynamics of night actions in a way that I like by revealing.
RexFavilla wrote:
Hmmm, Kohai is being retarded might be up for killing him. Helz also strikes me as a bit scummy right now.
Can you be more specific? With current hindsight you were just shoving the now host confirmed IC and I know I am town but both had very vague reasoning.
Why should Kohai (or anyone else) clearly read you as town this early?
What about what I am doing is any sort of scummy?
Mag1cman wrote:
Helz wrote:
Mag1cman wrote:
Again, you weren’t there for for last game, where we lynched Magoroth on the basis of him being less active as scum. And I did do the MAGA Mafia ISO on Magoroth. I’m not seeing any damning similarities.
Yeah, I was not in that game and I have not read it. Im just saying its really sus for you to be pushing a meta comparison referenced as their behavior for an entire game that apparently in reality is 4 individual posts.
It gives the impression as being something it certainly is not to the point I question if this was a fake read and you were throwing vague shade but forgot that detail and got called on it.
You’re framing it like I could not have extracted a meta read when he only gave four posts last game. But that is the meta. He posts less when mafia. I’m not saying he posts as little as four posts every scum game he’s ever played, but look at this game: He’s one of the early drivers of activity this far. Contrasts his scum meta, therefore an early town read is warranted.
This is not a hip fire read. It’s observable and proven.
That makes much more sense for a meta read.
I also for some reason thought you were using it as an FoS and not a town lean which was just the wires getting crossed in my head.
Mag1cman wrote:
Again, you weren’t there for for last game, where we lynched Magoroth on the basis of him being less active as scum. And I did do the MAGA Mafia ISO on Magoroth. I’m not seeing any damning similarities.
Yeah, I was not in that game and I have not read it. Im just saying its really sus for you to be pushing a meta comparison referenced as their behavior for an entire game that apparently in reality is 4 individual posts.
It gives the impression as being something it certainly is not to the point I question if this was a fake read and you were throwing vague shade but forgot that detail and got called on it.
Do you disagree that it looks like faking a read when they referance vague meta on a game where Mag had only 4 posts the entire game?
I have no idea how you could possibly have a meta position on 4 posts. I do however regularly see scum push vague reads with things like meta in order to appear as hunting.
Kohai wrote:
Mag1cman wrote:
Magoroth feels night and day from the last game. thinking he's town atm
He only posted 4 times last game so I don’t think that’s a great measurement.
See his play in the MAGA mafia game for a better read on him
This is actually an excellent point.
VTL: Mag1cman
Stretching reads to break RVS I get. This feels more like faking a read to throw shade what looking like they are hunting.
Im still chewing on how I feel about Thoths role claim. They essentially declared themselves something that develops into a PR later. Limits the pool Mafia would need to kill into to PR hunt but WIFOM could give them kill insulation. Then the mechanic itself is pretty odd. Not worth digging for more details but the claim is something I will consider more later.
whiteflame wrote:
Setting your self-imposed challenge aside, I disagree that claims are just NAI because scum can ask Pie questions. That matters, I’m just not convinced scum would ask about an obscure, largely unknown element like this one.
I did not mean to say that they are NAI. I meant to say specifically that mechanic of the question is something to consider with Thoth's claim.
Magoroth wrote:
Self imposed challenge?
Yes
Thoth wrote:
Helz wrote:
Self imposed challenge?
Helz thinks he is so much better than we are that his approach to the game has become a Veblen good.
Its more exercises to improve than thinking I am good. Forcing myself to work with limitations makes me do things differently and grow. Like last game many times I struggled to break down concepts and explain what I wanted to because I could not wall post. It made me be more concise and direct. If I really thought that highly of myself I would not make myself struggle with things I find less fun to improve as a player.
whiteflame wrote:
Thoth wrote:
I am Oganesson. I don’t know what my role is and won’t learn it until DP4. Justification is that very little
is known about Oganesson and it will probably be a while before it’s seriously studied. I am SOP-claiming in case it’s something SOP-claimable.
So... hmmm...
On the one hand, I want to just townread this because it's such a weird pull. I'm not familiar with Oganesson (it was only discovered in 2002 and in general any of the ones listed under the "unknown properties" section of the table is beyond my limited knowledge), but it's an odd part of the Table to grab from, especially if you're looking for a fake claim. There are probably 3 scum in this game so it's possible that one of them would just go for it rather than waiting to ask questions, but this doesn't seem obvious, nor does the whole "I discover my role 4 DPs in" aspect. It's weird that that's so delayed, but in a game with this many players, reaching DP4 is pretty likely.
On the other hand, I don't get this as an SOP claim. It's an unknown role, not an SOP one. Maybe this is just Thoth being extra cautious, or maybe this is him trying to give himself some towncred out the gate in hopes he'll avoid investigations. I don't like the decision, even if I kind of townread the claim itself.
So my challenge this game is that I can't use flavor at all which now seeing more setup details I am unhappy about. On the mechanics side though I think a claim is NAI given the scum team is given questions to verify. Also given that Mafia could ask about specific elements there could be some sort of anti-claim function in the mafia roles. Players may want to be careful about declaring what they are until we know more about what kinda PR madness we are dealing with.
ILikePie5 wrote:
Again, no one here cares whether people want to play here or not. People play here for fun. You're entitled to your opinion of whether its fun or not, but appealing to monkey thought of everyone else would think it’s bad doesn’t really matter to 90% of people here. Like no one cares that Thoth posted a troll message that had zero bearing on the game after he died. Sure he shouldn’t have done it but acting like it affected the integrity of the game is stupid.
I disagree that nobody cares. I want to see this community grow and I have had rather extensive conversations about some of these issues with others who want the same.
I agree that nobody cares about Thoth posting a troll message. It again cuts back to you talking about an isolated incident though so let me quote myself.
You keep narrowing my point into an isolated incident while I am pointing out a pattern of behavior.
Not much else I can say to be more clear than that. You can invalidate the specific points I make but I doubt a person on this website will say I am flatly wrong.
/In or reserve. Whatever is needed
ILikePie5 wrote:
Again, you’re using 20/20 hindsight to justify your claims. Mikal has done this as scum and town. It’s NAI in the context of the game. But if you magically believe that it ALWAYS gives an advantage, it’s not true. At worst it’s just WIFOM
You keep narrowing my point into an isolated incident while I am pointing out a pattern of behavior. Its not about Mikal. Its about consistently seeing the community bend rules to the point of breaking in an effort to gain an advantage in ways I have never seen tolerated by another community.
You can not have it both ways of "We are not a sweaty try hard community" and "Us bending and breaking rules for any possible advantage is just what we do." You gotta pick a lane there.
In just 2 games I have seen OOG communication, Dead players talking in games, People angling on exact host PM timings, Players looking at getting themselves modkilled to force a mech solve, and players leveraging OOG communication as a key issue in resolving alignments. Its not a single person or an isolated incident. Imo its a culture of disregard for the spirit of the game.
I have no interest in pointing fingers. I do have interest in pointing to this pattern and saying "We can do better" so we can have a more healthy community.
I can say its just my two cents. But I am certain if I started dragging people here they would never want to come back seeing a small amount of these behaviors. Much less truckloads of it from a large portion of the community.
ILikePie5 wrote:
Lol I’m saying if you’re scum, make it harder for you, plus you don’t know Mikal like we do, so for me it was NAI the entire time. And again, Idrc if people don’t want to play here. We’re not sweats. We have lives and jobs and family to worry about.
Im kinda confused.
I am talking about wanting clean games people can enjoy and you are talking about being try hard. Even with the limitations I placed upon myself I was strongly town read, narrowed the PoE, pushed effective mech and had a decent concluding solve. Thats whatever.
But yes, I think its a healthy thing to discuss how to have a healthy positive community experience. Saying "I do not care if people are unhappy" is just excusing the problem imo. And really justifying using rule violations for advantage speaks against your point that its not a sweaty community. If people were chill and cared more about fun than winning why break games to win?
I am 2 for 2 in games where angleshooting has given me borderline town confirmed positions.
Maybe. Just fucking maybe I would like to play a legit game of mafia and hate the advantage I was given. Lets be real. This second one was in a super tight PoE and I had a hardline position in part because of their angle shooting. That sucks.
If you can not understand why it sucks and why it will make people not want to play here I am not sure how to explain it to you.
Lunatic wrote:
I’ve always been of the opinion that angle shooting if used should be taken with a massive grain of salt. I’ve seen it be wrong as much as I’ve seen it be right. There should always be external reasons to lynch someone though if those reasons are available. Detectives don’t usually put someone away for one thing, unless it’s video evidence of a crime, usually there is loads of evidence to take into account before passing the guilty sentence.
And I have always been of the opinion that angle shooting is a flat rule break.
That if you are breaking the walls of what a game is including factors like "Well outside of this game this player said X" and "I think the host would give roles in X order with X timeline so lets break the game with that" its just shitting on the game. We will never get real mafia players in this community if this kind of behavior is excused.
Not saying we should punish. But lets please stop acting like its normal. Its really not.
