Helz

Didn't get that much before I was hammered but before the thread is closed still an open offer to ask me anything.

I bet scum was laughing their asses off watching this dumpster fire go down.

But if I could leave you guys with just 1 thing I would simply say that if you can not clearly articulate why someone is scum you do not even have real reasoning. And that eliminating based upon a social norm just because its a thing is bad. Demanding claims is not the end all be all of hunting and really demanding to know specifically what kinda protective I am was utterly pointless. I 100% will be bringing this up in future games if town keeps down this derpy claim demanding road. That is what it is. Insert "I told you so" here.

Yeah, I was town. This train was just bad. I hardly saw very much reasoning and even took days for anyone to bother to ask me what my reads were. The town doing all this over some weird site meta about claims and needing to know what flavor of protective I was is just silly. I still think a role that can only act every other night is pretty weak.

Expect to have this happen every game always with me forever. Im never gona play in a less optimal way just because the town I am playing in chooses to create a dumb situation. If I am put in a dumb situation by town I do not see a duty to behave in a dumb way to get myself out of it.

But I did enjoy playing with you guys. It was a really good time. Pretty wild game. Looking forward to seeing spoilers and I wish you all the best.

Literally. Lol

Well ask me whatever. Or just kill me. I am tired and do not really care.

I see my train as having the same issue I had with the Alyssa train. That it will not actually generate decent post flip tells. People have taken the same positions and the fact I do not give the info desired about my protective claim? Whatever. I will die on that hill no problem.

Hell, I can barely articulate the arguments against me. Even the main people pushing me like Mag1cman can not really articulate much reasoning I can tell. Kinda on that "Just do it" mindset like Gary Gilmore. Make a shoe slogan out of me and be done with it or lets go for the outed scum Shining.

So you think there’s no value in potentially outing a hard CC?

Situationally here no. We have a pretty hard bad claim from Shining everyone agrees makes them scum and I am gona die because why? I refuse to say what type of protective I am? As I make myself an open book and answer any question given to me about why I did what I did.

The problem I see is nobody really gives a fuck. Haven't herd a single person hit up Rex or Wryly and ask how much I was pushing to be read midrange town and specifically as 3p in guild chat. Of every player here you would probably be the one that can recognize how hard it is to float a mid range read for kill insulation as well as keep a door open for a 3p claim and even get people to read you not just as scum- but a very specific kind of scum. Sure I was low effort this game but damn thats a hard play. For half assing this game I am not mad about pulling that off. If chats woulda been released you would understand how much effort I put into being read as exactly that. I very much want to have an inverted LYLO faking a neutral claim someday. Wont be this game though.

how likely is wryly an uninformed insane cop?

I thought about that quite a bit and drew the conclusion that such a mechanic is just too bastard to exist in this game. I feel this community would require a bastard clarification if a mechanic existed where you got fucked off mech info from your actions.

I do not want to hear shit about information control from you ever with what you did to our guild. 100%

At this point, I’m willing to just hammer this. I get the idea behind shifting over to Shining, but we’re going to have to cross this bridge sooner or later, and it’s really just about the order in which we do it. I see Helz basically admitting that he knew he’d have extremely limited access to his roles and was fine with it, and that he’s also just refusing to claim his protective role out of spite at this point. I get being frustrated, but this is ridiculous. If I have this wrong, I’m giving Helz the floor to explain why before I make my call.

I am unsure what you are quoting. The reply function do not let me see what you are replying to.

I do not see why me revealing details about my protective function helps either solve my role or does not directly harm the town. Thats not spite. Its just cold logic.

Again- I did not know what a 'character' was. Frankly this is not normal in mafia games for flavor. Where some are given a character and others are given themselves as the player. Generally in my substantial experience you are told if there are modifiers to your role such as if you can do things or need to be recruited. Devil is in the details.

Im totally fine with being hammered. Maybe wait for Awesome to catch up though so you can get more out of them before doing so. While you voiced sound points I am not mad about getting out of this game and looking forward to the "I told you so" post with how awful the reasoning on me has been. Seems to all center around me not following a site meta that is not even pulling AI reasoning. My guild betraying me and acting like they did with Rex suddenly acting like they could not participate in chat and Wryly just painting me all over and screaming for role specific nonsense I am kinda cooked.

No lie though- I have been kinda low key mocking my character. Rich coward boy asking their father for things? Yeah.. Thats why I keep saying "I ask daddy for shit"

Even in my action submissions to the host I phrase it like that. Must be nice to be such a bitch and get daddy to give you things~

Is this a confession?

To be blunt kinda the opposite. While I hate the mechanic existing at all I gave zero fucks about hiding my name. Basically voiced it to kill the focus on flavor and without knowing the implications I did not care because I knew I am town and just did not give a fuck.

It is weird having people ask me like "How do your actions fit with your character" and such. Like man. Fuck if I know. I haven't watched the show. Pretty sure I would have been more hesitant to reveal that info if I was not town though given how everyone was all weird about flavor D1. I probably woulda withheld that info if I felt I had something to hide.

Pretty much my view. Pie is 95% confirmed town and will be confirmed post flip. No reason to burn more braincells on it.

If you wanted to lynch Shining, you should have fucking done it before I outed all this information.

Pretty sure that was voiced before you started this dumpster fire.

Btw- Wryly was asking for you in guild chat. Which you suddenly seem to have forgotten how to use...

Really- please guys- 2 things I would change about this game:

1- Do not make flavor any kind of impact on the game. Your just screwing everyone who has not watched the show and such in an unfair way.

2- Please use players account names. Holy shit its sucked hearing people like "Oh yeah, Tim would do this." Fucking Tim? I get its a small community but man it makes it hell to navigate the game.

Fwiw, I do recall Helz at one point saying "wait, so I could have used my ability at any time? I may have been dumb for accepting the invite."

This did happen. I jumped into the game prior to reading the OP and even after did not really pick up on what a 'character' meant. Was also part of why I was so quick to claim my character. I generally ignore flavor and treat it as absolutely nothing. I disliked the focus on it D1 and worked to resolve the focus on it and move on.

When I accepted the guild invite I thought I was getting power and the potential of being role blocked as leader made recruits and such for having a team. Later figured out I was 'a character' and could have used my ability without being in the guild at all. Still feel that my PR is rather weak but a lot of why I really felt weak was me thinking "I get to act only on some nights and only if the guilds not doing some shit and then I get to do some function"

Kinda felt dumb there. But also again- I sorta have a haltered for flavor impacting game. I love flavor but when it plays a mech function it just gives an advantage to people that know the source material which kinda sucks. I rambled a decent bit with Luna about how dumb I was there for not recognizing it but honestly- woulda accepted the guild invite if I had known that either way.

it’s odd for you to take a Guild invite when you know that will limit access to your roles even further (since you have to get two DPs where neither the Guild protective role you mentioned or the recruit are used).

Why accept the Guild invite when it would further limit access to roles you would need 2 NPs to get?

Well to be blunt I saw my role as weak. Doing something every other day vs me having access to a 24/7 chat with my ability? Quite bluntly I felt I could have a much stronger impact and better time playing this game by having that especially starting out with a confirmed town to work with. I feel that I am a monster with or without any role ability and applying my experience in a guild chat was the correct move. Give me the ability to coordinate a team and I can move mountains in this game.

Why be so intransigent about a role that will take at least 3 NPs to access?

Pretty simply a cost benefit view. The way I see it people are demanding details just because they want to know. They are not asking "What does this do to prove this dudes alignment." Its just that its the norm here to reveal PR with zero positive impact and large damage to town. This is why I keep referencing the learned behavior thing. People doing a thing because thats just what is done while not stopping to ask "What is the reason behind the thing I am doing" (in this case, demanding specifics of a protective claim)

So yeah. Im kinda telling everyone to pound sand and that I will laugh at them as I flip as I also push people to actually make a case against me. Not sure what else I could do if I am unwilling to cater to this toxic meta.

I have specific points and you can ISO me if you want to find them. I’m really not gonna spend any more time on this.

I believe I have read every post you have made. Twice over or more for the recent posts. Obviously I am missing something if you feel I am not connecting with you.

So please, break it down barny style for me what you are interested in knowing from me. I can explain every action I have taken this game in detail and will do so but I am not really seeing a point from you that I can address.

I've only ever played mafia on this site, and refusing to full claim when there's evidence against you has always been regarded as a scumtell here.

Take a moment and ask yourself what the difference between a full claim and what I have done is.

I claimed my exact actions and explained exactly how my role works requesting items and explained the exact item I requested with the one action I had and said the other is protective.

Why does it possibly matter what type of protective function my other item is? How is this not giving every bit of info needed and what is scummy about it? Do you not see how there is town benefit in keeping details on protective functions hidden?

bad claim is debatable, bad behavior seems like because he is hurting egos by standin true to himself. ive been in that boat before.

Regardless of how this plays out I do appreciate it. I get that I am being obstinate and kinda a crude in some ways but if you could only see my guild chat I feel like I should be screaming town to all of them and I do feel betrayed. Rex ran and hid in the corner and Wryly seems determined to paint me.

I have people shoving me as I offer to explain absolutely anything other than the exact details of my protective function and its like pulling teeth to get people to articulate something I can respond to.

Part of why I keep bringing up that I am just going to laugh at your bad play when I flip town kinda thing. May not be nice but fuck man its true. At least be able to voice some logic for killing me if your gona do it. Or just get it over with.

Honestly, I could have totally seen you as town if you had outed my protective function. I get that part.

Following up with a vote to eleminate me because I would not tell you exactly what specific kind of protective was just opportunistic. Sense then you are casting shade in opportunistic ways. I do not trust you at all.

He's gone from trying to deflect blame to me and Rex to trying to deny that I ever made my intentions clear in chat at all. It just seems like scummy behavior.

Oh no. I totally don't trust you two. To the degree I asked the host if I could leave the guild straight up. I believe my exact words when I was told no was "I just see a mechanical disadvantage at this point and activly scum read my guild leader. Lol"

Lets not get it twisted. I think you pretending you clearly voiced your action is bullshit and part of why I suspect you. Those two things are very connected.

Shining has a bad claim and bad behavior. Helz has a bad claim, worse behavior, and mech analysis against him.

Wait. What mech analysis? I have been hardline on the correct side of both flips. I get you can not see the guild chat but just look at any vote count DP1 or ask my guild mates what I voiced about Alyssa or Thoth in the chat.

Shining and Helz FOSing each other like this points to an unpairing there. If Helz isn't town then this seems like a scum/3P split.

Interesting assumption. Why does it have to be Neutral v Mafia and it cant be some form of Mafia v Town?

Its not the denotation of what you said. Its the connotation.

Technically you are correct. You specifically said "Pie Conf" a long time after Lunatic had voiced a desire to check them. But it was not a reply to their statement and in context we were rambling about some totally other shit at the time.

The connotation of saying you clearly voiced and projected your read is a bit extra. Including those details would matter. I didnt pick up on it but I also was actively avoiding hunting within our guild.

Ok? I mean I don't know what your point is here. Are you trying to argue that we don't have a guild leak because you guys chatted in between Lunatic telling me to target Pie and me saying "confirm"?

Oh no. I am pointing out that what I said before was that you randomly said Pie Conf in the middle of a discussion. You are verifying that half an hour earlier Lunatic asked you a question and I did check and verify that you saying that was not even a reply to that statement. It was just a random "Pie conf" in the middle of a totally separate discussion.

Without that context it sounds a bit different. Mag1c now thinks my account and yours is different but ehh, they are being rather unreasonable not bothering to verify or consider facts imo. I said what I said to you specifically to point out that your borderline painting me with such a statement.

Best I can say is that I did enjoy playing with you. If you are scum well played. Sorry if anything felt personal but yeah, your just absolutely wrong on this one and expect me to bring it up in the future : )

If you can’t understand my posts, it is just your skill issue. Maybe not your fault, but it doesn’t make a difference to me as far as how much more time I want to spend on it goes.

We can agree that its a skill issue. We may disagree on who has that issue.

If you can not clearly voice your logic you do not have any imo.

I can’t make it any more clear for you.

Honestly- I think you can not make it any more clear for me because you can not really articulate real reasoning to your push. Your working around vague claims and do not want to get into specifics.

For example- Just now you jumped to another vague claim

I did ask Wryly and she gave me a report different from yours. I believe in her more than I do you.

What they said in their response was that they said Pie Confirmed and 30 minutes earlier Lunatic asked them to target Pie.

This lines up exactly with what I said but in your vague narrative not being specific you can spin it. Which whatever. You are probably just so tunneled on me at this point your kinda committed and accepting you may be wrong would be offensive to you.

But yeah, You have been about as clear as mud referencing vague nonsense the entire time. Even when I directly ask you "What do you want to know referencing a post where you voiced I could be 3p D1 you just evade and stay vague. I gave you the exact quote I said in guild chat about your comment and voiced you could verify with a guild member who can see the comment. Your response is simply that you do not believe me.

If you want common ground we can have that but really, You are not exactly making a point I can even address. Just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.

“Hey guys I’m gonna act scummy for funsies, don’t think I’m scum for it though, ok?”

No, I wanted to be scum read. Just did not expect my guild to betray me like they did. Rex is hiding in the corner silently while Wryly is pouring gas on the fire to the point I now think they are scum so much I flatly asked the mod if I could get out of the guild.

Wryly gave her side of the story, and it contradicts what you said.

They did not. They said something like 30 minutes prior a discussion on actions was had and they posted 'pie conf'. They did. Things were said during that time and their response was not even a reply to Lunatic saying to check pie. Its possible someone coulda picked up on that but kinda bullshit to act like they hard projected their action imo. They can confirm that as well. Just ask them. Really... Ask them.

No, you are pretending not to understand arguments, to drag things out and to try and fool inattentive lurkers into thinking there’s no real raft against you.

Please just make a point. Or just understand that I do not get your point. I am asking for you to clearly articulate what you are asking from me. What do you want to understand about my behavior and motives? I am not seeing a clear argument.

Remember that very early thing when I had to tell everyone that I am very autistic and struggle with communication? If your not acting in bad faith here just consider for a moment that I may truly not understand what you are getting at and I am genuinely asking you to clearly explain.

You keep saying I am ignoring things and not giving you what you want but I do not understand what you want. I just keep hearing vague references to "Well I already said it" which obviously has not connected in a way that I understand.