Helz

Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/9/2026 at 8:15 PM (post #106)

What do you mean, " you prevent chat" as a blackmailer?

So Blackmailer is a complicated role that generally works 1 of 2 ways

1- It lets you silence a player from speaking (although some communities call this a silencer, which does kinda matter because then you are not "Blackmailed" you are "Silenced"

2- It could also let you make posting requirements. Things like "You must say these things" or "you must speak in this way"

The catch usually being that if you do not follow the terms you are given you die at the end of the day.

The reason this is considered a "Bastard mechanic" is that it can require someone to act against their win condition actively causing harm or not working to accomplish it. I thought that was talked about on this site. I could have my sights crossed. Kohai can confirm if it was but I believe we spoke about 'levels of bastard' at some point in discord and it was acknowledged that a Blackmailer is a bastard mechanic. With the host telling me there is no bastard mechanics in the game that raises questions of what was implemented or organized on the subject which is part of why I call bullshit on their "I am blackmailed" claim.

Also why I am a bit sideways over the issue after the entire misunderstanding about flavor being AI.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 8:07 PM (post #98)

The long and short of it is that I don’t trust the existence of both a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer here, either, but I also think it would be odd for a scum team that has a Vanillaizer to fake a Blackmailer claim, particularly if town is as weak as it looks. Doesn’t mean I’m accepting Mag1c’s statement that he was Blackmailed at face value, I’m just trying to determine if he’d take this big of a risk. Dude has claimed to be affected by a Poisoner before as scum, so I wouldn’t put it past him.

So, something on my mind is looking at the meta pattern. If you look at the links I dropped it was Mag1c pushing a case while doing everything possible to avoid owning up to not having one as scum and pushing to kill me as town. Faking a BM claim follows that exact same pattern of behavior. Casting votes to point a finger while avoiding having any reason or accountability.

(And again, I will state I was told by the host that Bastard mechanics do not exist and that I believe Blackmailer to be a bastard mechanic making their claim just fake)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 8:01 PM (post #91)

Perhaps a mass character claim should be done to help narrow the theme split?

I would not mind seeing a hardline full flavor claim today from everyone.

Unless people feel anti-claim mechanics exist (which absolutely nobody has expressed even when I opened the door for someone to use that excuse) I do not see the harm at all and it does point twords the non-claimed individuals. I will again point out the decision to kill Mag (one of the claimed individuals) as opposed to a non-claimed person points to that.

That said- WF Vandalizing makes more sense than a Mag1c Blackmail by miles.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 8:01 PM (post #93)

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 8:56 PM (post #83)

PWe clearly have very different perspectives on this.

I suppose so. Given either flavor or role reveals could help solve right now in a huge way and the critical town role has already flipped I just do not see it.

If nothing else you and the handful of other no-claims should have greater thoughts about the potential split. We know its absolutely AI and figuring out that split is a major factor with later claimers being more sus in the situation.

I’m not convinced my claim will be the kind of massive help you believe it will be, and if you’re looking for me to give thoughts on a split, I did already cover that to some degree last DP. The problem is that, as you already said, we know scum have asked about two characters. We shouldn’t expect that they’ve straight claimed their characters, nor that their fake claims will put them due to being on the wrong side of the split. Feels a little strange to me to focus on the split when you’ve been saying how easy it is for scum to figure out fake claims.

I get you. But its not about me feeling they are easy to fake. Its about you holding back on the claim when your reasoning was that it would out your role.

I figured this game flavor was a wash. It was something just useful to break RVS. But its weird how resistant people are to giving it now.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 8:00 PM (post #89)

If the split was somehow between world leaders and entertainers of some sort then Noah would be outted.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 8:00 PM (post #88)

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 8:58 PM (post #85)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 7:55 PM (post #81)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 8:54 PM (post #79)

But I’m just done arguing this. If Kohai and Helz want my character, I’ll just give it. I’m DJT.

Hmm so 3 world leader claims. Interesting

Wasn't gona say it but D1 they did say they were a world leader after I pointed out we have a potential split between world leaders and entertainers. Kinda hoped they would forget they said that and I could call a slip but I could just be wrong about them.

Well we have world leaders and one entertainer (Michael Jackson) that’s town. So I don’t think that’s the split there.

I am playing from memory with no notes which I never do. But from memory there were 2 entertainer claims

As far as suspecting me I mean. Their double vote with BM claim they could not have seen me go anywhere because I did not go anywhere.

Btw. I do hope someone views the links I gave related to Mag1c. Kinda seems like they like to FoS without explanation. I will now confirm I did not visit anyone last night so there is no way they could be any sort of tracker/lookout/detective and such.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 7:55 PM (post #81)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 8:54 PM (post #79)

But I’m just done arguing this. If Kohai and Helz want my character, I’ll just give it. I’m DJT.

Hmm so 3 world leader claims. Interesting

Wasn't gona say it but D1 they did say they were a world leader after I pointed out we have a potential split between world leaders and entertainers. Kinda hoped they would forget they said that and I could call a slip but I could just be wrong about them.

If it helps I will flatly claim I do not have any function that touches on using peoples flavor.

We clearly have very different perspectives on this.

I suppose so. Given either flavor or role reveals could help solve right now in a huge way and the critical town role has already flipped I just do not see it.

If nothing else you and the handful of other no-claims should have greater thoughts about the potential split. We know its absolutely AI and figuring out that split is a major factor with later claimers being more sus in the situation.

Sense you are here any thoughts on the situation?

Basic breakdown being I am calling out that a Blackmailer (role that prevents chat) + Vanalizer (role that removes night actions) + scum having an insta-win timeline is imbalanced.

I also claim that a Blackmailer is a role thats considered 'bastard' (Something thats suppose to be declared before a game starts)

Then there is WF being weird about revealing their flavor claim. D1 it was because they said it would reveal their role. Today they claim to not have a role (ability) anymore.

Any thoughts?

The logout thing happens to us all. I have no idea how the offensive thing works. I think its a dumb system to begin with but its nonsensical to me whats flagged.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 7:37 PM (post #70)

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 8:26 PM (post #67)

I mean, sure. But you are missing the part I am critical about here-

Yesterday you never expressed you were worried about holding your flavor because it gives scum info. On top of that. Wouldent that suggest you suspect the unclaimed people? I do not see any of that from you. And then Scum have 2 asks to make their own claims with only 2 players. That feels like a lot. I would have zero problem working with that myself. Its not like Epstein has a small list of people involved or that anyone in this game is super familiar with everyone thats involved.

What part of “I don’t want to claim because it’s easy to identify my role based on my character” was unclear? It was how I responded to your request to trade claims. That implies I was concerned about giving scum info. And yes, it suggests that at least one person without a claim could be scum. I can’t dismiss that. I was wrong about Magoroth, so now I’m reevaluating my reads. I don’t get how that’s odd, nor is it odd to avoid giving scum pertinent info that could still be used for character or role claims.

For some video game or anime or TV show people will probably know everything there is to know on the subject. That is just not the case here and suddenly your having concerns you did not have before. I would have expected you to snap claim your flavor. Claiming your role? I could see reason to hold that back. I wont say way but I get that part.

Again, unclear on why you think I didn’t express these concerns prior to now. You can expect whatever you want, but I made my concerns clear last DP. The fact that scum can’t use my role to their advantage anymore changes the calculus somewhat, but not entirely.

But to follow up. If you do think that its scum who has not claimed and just never said it who do you think it is? This is a pretty small game after all.

I haven’t come up with a new set of reads this DP. I’ll have to sit down and re-read much of last DP with the context of the flops before I do. If it’s odd to you that I haven’t directly sussed someone who hasn’t claimed yet, so be it, but at this point I’m not dismissing anyone.

The odd part comes in with your reasoning to not flavor claiming D1 being it would reveal your role. Now there is this new concern about giving scum 1 thing they could avoid and not have a CC on. Sure. Valid. "if" you thought the scum is in the non-claimed people. Which you have not voiced. And that is the inconstant factor I am poking at.

Either you should be pushing very specific people for not claiming and sussing them -or- you should be snap claiming your flavor. This middle ground is just odd and inconsistent.

I will also say, when I popped into the game is when I posted and I pretty much immediately called out my flavor. I have not bothered to look at when I was notified of what but it would suggest I would have had to be told in advance about my role and alignment and have a chat to coordinate or else I would have had to just go for a hipshot and roll the dice of a counter claim

I mean, sure. But you are missing the part I am critical about here-

Yesterday you never expressed you were worried about holding your flavor because it gives scum info. On top of that. Wouldent that suggest you suspect the unclaimed people? I do not see any of that from you. And then Scum have 2 asks to make their own claims with only 2 players. That feels like a lot. I would have zero problem working with that myself. Its not like Epstein has a small list of people involved or that anyone in this game is super familiar with everyone thats involved.

For some video game or anime or TV show people will probably know everything there is to know on the subject. That is just not the case here and suddenly your having concerns you did not have before. I would have expected you to snap claim your flavor. Claiming your role? I could see reason to hold that back. I wont say way but I get that part.

But to follow up. If you do think that its scum who has not claimed and just never said it who do you think it is? This is a pretty small game after all.

I will also mention it is of note that Mafia decided to kill within the pool of flavor claims. Reinforces my thought that Mafia are worried about flavor hunting.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 6:49 PM (post #59)

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 7:28 PM (post #54)

So just for the ping could you reveal your role and flavor? I feel both help solve the game and you have no reason to withhold either at this point. Posting this way so you get a notification.

If there are at least a few people who agree that I should do this, I will. Like I said, I see some value in keeping that info hidden, but given that I don’t have a role anymore, I’m fine with claiming if seeking that information has any kind of broad support. Luna said no, you’re saying yes, so I’m in a holding pattern atm.

My thoughts are pretty simple here. Your flavor? No reason not to claim given your reasoning was not to claim because you felt it would reveal your role which you claim to no longer have. Thats pretty absolutely a zero loss with benefit to the town given that we know flavor is AI. Kinda feels weird you would not recognize that and even ask people about if you should or should not reveal given that.

For your role- I also feel like this helps game solve. A Vannializer + a Blackmailer feels super strong. This is doubled down on by the fact Shining had a negative utility that gave scum even more information and thats even on top of scum having an insta-win time.

With that in mind let me ask you- how do you feel about Mag1cs claim? And really.. Why in the fuck would you not flavor claim at the very least?

Im going to avoid snap voting but I think its just as simple as a W! Mag1c faking a blackmailed claim after contriving kills to frame me.

Oh shit. Check this out-

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/3p/solo-leveling---day-phase-3?commentId=69dc0abcf1ca45e4130c77c3

Here is the end game

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/endgames/posts/4a/solo-leveling-endgame

So this is what I was talking about. And it was Mag1c that did it. Said over and over and over to town pushing that I was scum and people just followed the rhetoric and nobody cared to verify even as I called out again and again that they have never even made any points as to why I was scum. They (as scum) shoved through my misslynch.

I will say after this game we really need to outline community standards of what is or is not bastard.. I thought it was talked about but I am unhappy with what I thought this game was vs what it is. I really did not sign up for this experience but I will do what I can.

I truly do hate to ask. Is Blackmailer considered Bastard? Im sorry for putting you in a situation asking this question.

So just for the ping could you reveal your role and flavor? I feel both help solve the game and you have no reason to withhold either at this point. Posting this way so you get a notification.

I think I am between Mag1c and WF today. One or the other has to be lying. Both are convenient actions to claim for scum.

I also feel the fact I was not killed claiming to be a TPR translates to the scum having a strong player on their team. Yes I am not doing well engaging but regardless I do see a lot of opportunistic positioning in this situation that I do not buy when considering basic game balance. I will ask the host publicly if a Blackmailer is considered blackmail although it puts them in a really fucked up position. I think its as simple as Mag1c being scum but I also had concerns about WF yesterday.

Also, @WhiteFlame given your only reasoning for not revealing flavor yesterday was that it indicates your role and now you claim to have none care to reveal now? I feel like thats a good starting point to work off. Kinda ironic that every game I have played on this site I have been super anti-claim while everyone else is for it yet the second I push for it I am accused of looking scummy for it. Lol.. This sites meta is fucking bipolar as shit.

Not much I can say to Kohai's pre flop association hunting other than its just wrong. I can answer for my own actions. I can not answer for whatever you have in your head about everyone around me.

Well I guess we will have a shitshow today.

I am going to say- the one other time I was misslynched as town this game basically came from people making vague "Dude is scumy" claims. I spent hours begging town to ask me anything and I particularly remember looking back at the game and one of the wolves kept pushing the narrative that they had made a case as I called them out saying "What is this mythical reasoning you have not said" but nobody in the town cared to even look. Lets please not do that this time around. Please call out whatever you feel I have done thats scummy and I really can explain myself. I am not even doing fancy stuff this game.

I will also say I question the blackmailed issue. An entire conversation happened of if Blackmailer is a bastard mechanic or not. I was flatly told there is no bastard mechanics in this game. This does get into some of the stupid where the site has not outlined specifics but I want to say it was talked about and decided that it was a low level of bastard. That makes me question Mag1cian.

Me hard pegging Mag as town, them being killed, and then Mag1c being blackmailed who I was in open conflict with is pretty obvious. I really do hope you guys give me more credit than that as a player. Makes me feel this push is contrived.

I also feel a Blackmailer + Vanalizer + a hard time limit for town or default loose is wildly imbalanced which brings me back to feeling there is at least 1 scum between WF and Mag1c. That just sounds utterly stupid to me and given Savant and Pie balanced this I really doubt it unless town is fucking loaded. And even then it would just be a super swingy mess.

Thats my initial thoughts.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/8/2026 at 4:25 PM (post #446)

I disagree that nobody would want to play against a computer

I didn't mean to say that. I was just pointing out that when people intend to interact with a person and instead are forced to interact with a computer its not what they consented to. And that when that computer gives a heavy advantage in a competition its not cool.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 10/8/2026 at 4:04 PM (post #439)

I wanted to catch up but that's fair ig.

Sorry. I figured the chat will just stay open forever given night cycles are instant. Really though the way things were going I just did not see any other outcome today than Shining unless someone came up with a very serious push. And I do not think there is really enough content to create such a push. Every read is soft and nothing in heavy dispute has happened.

I will go ahead and just pull the trigger. I do not see anything changing in the day cycle and we are pretty much 4 hours over the amount we have been discussing using for D1.

VTL: Shining

(I believe this should be the hammer)

Ehh, Unless someone says otherwise I am just gona hammer Shining

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/8/2026 at 3:23 PM (post #429)

I can't stand anti-AI arguments. "oh boohoo it devalues art and discourages artists from becoming artists." YES. YES IT DOES. THAT IS WHAT TECHNOLOGY DOES. AUTOMATION IS GOOD. I don't give a fuck that an artist is out of a job if I can save myself hundreds of thousands of dollars on a commission using ChatGPT. You have no place in the economy unless you can outperform AI enough that your service is worth the extra money. You have gone the way of many other jobs before. Suck it up and get over it.

I really do not want to dive further down this AI tangent. But I will say that the difference is that when someone signs up to compete with a human- they are not signing up to compete with a computer.

If you take a computer to a chess match and use it to feed you advice on moves your not a clever fellow using a tool. Your a dick.

Tools have their place but in things that are centered around human interaction like playing social deduction or debate games its just not cool and toxic to the experience that they even exist.

We really should take further conversation on the subject out of this game though. I feel its starting to be distracting and spammy.