Helz

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/8/2026 at 3:19 PM (post #426)

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/8/2026 at 3:14 PM (post #418)

Kill per night. Like, Mafias nightly kill that is normally expected.

If we carved that out of the game we could double the amount of lynches town could do.

I don't see what you are saying.

So like, If we look at my earlier breakdown of how many day phases we have-

Worst case-

N1- 1 Misslynch 1 killed

D2 5 town 2 mafia

N2- 1 Misslynch 1 killed

D3 Lylo at 3 town 2 Mafia

Then remove the 1 killed part. Without considering redirection and such we assume 1 kill every night and that killed player being a town member.

Removing that makes it worst case-

N1 1 misslynch

D2 6 town 2 mafia

N2 1 misslynch

D3 5 town 2 mafia

N3 1 misslynch

D4 4 town 2 mafia

N4 1 misslynch

D5 Lylo at 3 town 2 mafia

Obviously not possible to be done like this exactly but thats the concept. Town gets more lynches if wolves can be shut out from their night kill. I feel its slightly game breaking although it hinges on the potential of a very specific gamestate with a town role existing that creates chats.

Probably such an obscure potential its not worth much focus but it popped in my head and out of my mouth. Partially resulting from my growing understanding of what an utterly massive advantage this time constraint is for the scum team. I knew it was a thing but I did not truly understand it or consider how it would play out.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/8/2026 at 3:18 PM (post #424)

Tannate?

Tenant. I don't know why I spelled it like that. I rent a commercial property out and they are trying to make one of the business owners legal issues my problem. Problem is its not my fucking problem.

Anyways..

I figure everyone has had enough time to do what they want and the subject of action submission has been constantly brought up over the day cycle. Unless anyone sees a reason to wait I will vote shining. I gotta go bug a tannate about paying me rent and they are being stupid so it may be time consuming.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/8/2026 at 3:13 PM (post #416)

KPN?

Kill per night. Like, Mafias nightly kill that is normally expected.

If we carved that out of the game we could double the amount of lynches town could do.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/8/2026 at 3:09 PM (post #414)

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/8/2026 at 3:08 PM (post #412)

There was much further work I did and other people got involved with ways to quantify alignments. Although I will say a game you cheat at looses its fun. I personally figure it will only be some amount of time until Mafia as a game is broken and unplayable due to the clankers.

If you are already a fairly decent programmer and Mafia player, there's nothing you can do with modern AI that you could not have done better with a text analysis macro long before LLMs were a thing. Superhuman botting has been a problem in many games since forever, and people still play them.

Oh, I am very aware. And yes, it has been done before. It was just handled by a small controlled group of people that ensured it never got released and it was tied to 1 specific sites database as we tested theory. We all agreed the work should go in a black hole in the end.

Im ok with Shining. Wish I had something better and I need to consolidate my thoughts on some things but we do need to move the game along. If I was scum I would very much want the game to be as stagnant as possible. This hard deadline concept is interesting although I feel it encourages something negative to players experience.

I will again say that especially if we start getting confirmed townies and some chat role exists we could consider my idea of cutting scum out of the night cycles removing their KPN and giving additional lynches to the town. In such a world we could speed run through all non-confirmed players and deal with the weird potential of a Mafia created neighborhood in LYLO 2v1 if that weird world happened.

Further conversation we should have outside the game. If your interested this was my initial concept https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/3561-8-Macro-Meta-Crunching-%28by-Helz%29

There was much further work I did and other people got involved with ways to quantify alignments. Although I will say a game you cheat at looses its fun. I personally figure it will only be some amount of time until Mafia as a game is broken and unplayable due to the clankers.

Something I dropped working on was creating a tool to help players quantify their accuracy of reads and how effective specific tells are. That woulda been a really cool healthy thing but I lost interest when Mafia Universe went full retard on me because I bruised some egos in leadership.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/8/2026 at 2:51 PM (post #400)

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/8/2026 at 2:48 PM (post #396)

Lol. Yeah. Its going to suck when AI gets to a point people use it to analyze mafia games and play for them. I figure that will just about become the death of Mafia and it will be facing the same problem Debates face now with people cheating using computers to create positions and break down data for them.

AI debating isn't really a problem because good human debaters still outclass any AI by a country mile. See my debates with ChatKnight if you want to laugh while you see how I proved this point.

And if AI can outdo any human at Mafia, I think it will have gotten smart enough that it will do all our jobs for us and we will all be living in a machine-run utopia. That, or it will have destroyed the world. Either way, Mafia prowess will no longer be a concern.

Your proud admittance to having taken action, however small in the grand scheme of things, to cut off my flow of AI-generated comedy videos has permanently colored my opinion of you, badly.

Getting a bit off topic but most people do not understand how game breaking things like sociometrics can be. I initially created the concept of quantifying word counts across multiple games to compare correlated alignment patterns although I did it manually and while it was scary effective it was also a massive pain. AI could do that trash super fast and easy. Some of the later concepts I came up with were so game breaking I never even released an article on the subject.

If I had the right AI tools I think I could utterly destroy the game of Mafia in ways that would just be awful.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/8/2026 at 2:49 PM (post #397)

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/8/2026 at 3:47 PM (post #395)

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/8/2026 at 2:24 PM (post #390)

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/8/2026 at 1:53 PM (post #380)

True. I am not sure that is AI for them though. Do they also not read up as town? The one game I remember playing with them they were scum and they did really engage for a small amount of time when they were on the chopping block. Then just floated in the background for like 2 days before I could figure things out.

I know my activity is inconsistent, but Shining is consistently AWOL

Yeah, That is my thought. Are they doing what they did in my 1 game playing with them as scum? Yes. But from everything I am hearing they do it as either alignment which is why outside of the potential of them outing their teams flavor in a bid for town cred I just see a policy lynch there.

It may be a necessary evil if we simply have no other way to sort them but I am not seeing much to read them on

To be fair we did lose because shining was scum and we didn’t lynch him and thought Thoth was scumnier in F3.

The game I was thinking of ended in a cult win. I might be remembering wrong but I believe the cult converted 1 member of the mafia and the majority of the town. Something like D4 the game was blocked off into a small PoE through mech and behavioral tells and I sat down and broke down every possible pairing and drew the conclusion that in every situation they must simply be scum and we lynched them.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/8/2026 at 2:35 PM (post #393)

Main reason I sus Helz is that N0 peek test. From what I’ve seen, “Everyone post something” reaction tests tend to be scum. Thinking of that Ranger’s Apprentice game where Mag1c had everyone post a number. The strategy may be valid, but it looks like fake contribution to introduce it how Helz did.

Also, since you are a Luddite, I am sure you will be happy to know that Kohai made this site with Codex.

I am not really sure how to point to the fact that its a very commonly used strategy that at high levels of play is not just considered normal, its considered expected. I get that its kinda new to most people in this community but its seriously common practice and has great value if used correctly for the town. I did not come up with this strategy myself.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/8/2026 at 2:34 PM (post #392)

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/8/2026 at 3:26 PM (post #391)

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/8/2026 at 1:56 PM (post #381)

Oh, yeah. I closed the site to shut out the Artificial Intelligence scrapers. A lot of Artificial Intelligence was specifically training itself off mafia games because they deal with complex human interactions that are bot free. Fuck the clankers. May they burn in hell.

Fuck you and fuck everyone who denies AI the data it needs.

AI needs to die

Lol. Yeah. Its going to suck when AI gets to a point people use it to analyze mafia games and play for them. I figure that will just about become the death of Mafia and it will be facing the same problem Debates face now with people cheating using computers to create positions and break down data for them.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/8/2026 at 2:24 PM (post #390)

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/8/2026 at 1:53 PM (post #380)

True. I am not sure that is AI for them though. Do they also not read up as town? The one game I remember playing with them they were scum and they did really engage for a small amount of time when they were on the chopping block. Then just floated in the background for like 2 days before I could figure things out.

I know my activity is inconsistent, but Shining is consistently AWOL

Yeah, That is my thought. Are they doing what they did in my 1 game playing with them as scum? Yes. But from everything I am hearing they do it as either alignment which is why outside of the potential of them outing their teams flavor in a bid for town cred I just see a policy lynch there.

It may be a necessary evil if we simply have no other way to sort them but I am not seeing much to read them on

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/8/2026 at 2:08 PM (post #385)

Something that also occurred to me is if town actually did run lynches faster than scum could submit actions it could be game breaking removing the scum kpn.

I will clarify that normally I would consider this against the spirit of the game. But given the hard "Town auto-looses" mechanic and my belief that wolves are playing for that I feel its fair game to fuck around with time considerations.

If they are gona do it so should we.

Anyways, in 50ish minutes Thoths vote will drop on @Shining putting them at L1 if nobody else votes

I don't know that its practical to implement without some kinda communication role though.. Even if we got a hand full of players together that trusted etch other on the same page there would still be ways to work around it now that I am thinking about it.

Something that also occurred to me is if town actually did run lynches faster than scum could submit actions it could be game breaking removing the scum kpn.

Fair point.

I am not opposed to Shining I just still look at them as a policy elimination. I have been running around all morning and just took a break for a late lunch but I would not be opposed to setting a hard deadline. Mag is looking to drop a vote a 4 eastern but I believe thats in only 55 minutes or so.

We should get our day cycles under control either way. If I was scum I would want to drag days out as long as possible to then force chaos in the end blitzing lynches with little consideration.

Conditional voting opens up some excellent doors for us to easily control the day cycles time. If we all simply picked a time our votes would go into effect as we voted we would perfectly control exactly when a day ends. It could be a good idea to consider.

Although I do feel we should reconsider the timeline. I get peoples plans for exactly 4 day phases but if we block a kill or get a mafia early we could have more. What we will not have more of is days IRL to play the game. That sets us up for a bit of a problem.

Oh, yeah. I closed the site to shut out the Artificial Intelligence scrapers. A lot of Artificial Intelligence was specifically training itself off mafia games because they deal with complex human interactions that are bot free. Fuck the clankers. May they burn in hell.

True. I am not sure that is AI for them though. Do they also not read up as town? The one game I remember playing with them they were scum and they did really engage for a small amount of time when they were on the chopping block. Then just floated in the background for like 2 days before I could figure things out.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/8/2026 at 9:14 AM (post #360)

Shining is rubbing me the wrong way. Feels line TMI on flavor.

This is something that pinged me as well reading through. Less that they had a guess for who the flavor roles might be but more for how deadset they are on the exact names. Probably the only behavior I have seen from them that has really bothered me outside of (what I believe to be) their norm.

To clarify the way they are shoving everywhere all over the place and quickly shifting this game is their town play. As scum they are more focused and selective. They jump less from position to position and move more slowly. That is the pattern I am looking at.

Sense I am deviating from everything I normally do meta read- Mag is just town.

I will just say, Not trying to dogpile but its less in my head right now that there is nothing to scum read you on. Its also that there is nothing to town read you on. The one game I caught you as scum I had to do so by reading every single other slot in the game around you. You jumped in and did 'just enough' to survive and I made a rough judgement call way later in the game that took a specific gamestate for me to even figure out.

Please just jump in and play. I know it takes work but you signed up for it and understand that its harmful to others experiences if you do not put in effort.

Otherwise the players gotta roll the dice on you and its kinda not fair. To answer your question this is exactly why you are catching this kinda flack in the games you play.

Apparently even at half speed I am still a scheming bastard : )

WF has my attention. Their post 301 specifically outside of other considerations hedges my lynch distancing from the issue while also pushing for a claim. This is after shoving back against claiming flavor.

I am not sure about them being the D1 and worried about allowing 'non participating' players into later day phases but there is a reason my response in 305 was what it was.

To be transparent the N0 claim (while absolutely being something I want this community to understand and implement) I wanted to put it in heads that I could be an alignment cop and I doubled down later bridging my flavor plan with saying my action was not well connected with my flavor. (And that legit is true)

I am a bit surprised you guys are okay with helz as our first lynch today.

So a bit of what I was doing was making myself an obvious TPR. Scum will want to reveal what I can do or eliminate me. Some people bit down on that trap of a sandwich. I think it was kinda funny but before I say more I will wait for others thoughts.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/8/2026 at 1:03 AM (post #306)

Originally Posted by Helz on 10/8/2026 at 12:52 AM (post #305)

Im also curious. I have never seen someone hunt a role from flavor. Has that ever even happened on this site? Like.. Is the paranoia about that actually justified by anyone's experience that has been playing here?

Absolutely. Lunatic figured out that Shining was Gunsmith after he claimed the Great Fairy of Kindness in my Majora's Mask game. I could probably come up with other examples if I thought for long enough.

Interesting. I kinda thought it was more smoke in peoples heads vs scum wanting to avoid claims. Want to get to that FoS you said you would explain?

I will trade you my role claim for your flavor claim.

(I kinda suspect that the group of late comers and people refusing is the pool to focus on at this point)

So far all I have to consider for a flavor split is that there seem to be world leaders and entertainers. We could legit have something of value there but scum will want to drag their feet on the subject.

Im also curious. I have never seen someone hunt a role from flavor. Has that ever even happened on this site? Like.. Is the paranoia about that actually justified by anyone's experience that has been playing here?

I will say I do not scum read Mag1cian for their push.

1 is ehh.. I guess they do not know how little I care about winning vs having a fun game

2 is just them not understanding basic strategy for cop insulation thats common outside of this site

3 is just funny to me. I dislike AI flavor but I wanted to break RVS and I wanted to see who would oppose it

Kinda my view of their FoS although I do appreciate the effort and do not feel it was opportunistic