ILikePie5

Also, can you expand on your justification? Paraphrase your PM

This is the correct play from town POV. Pie is more likely to be a recruit than Castin or you. Lynch white flame today and lynch me tomorrow. I’ll kill pie and town wins

Mikal = Pie in terms of recruitment.

wf - the thing that is making me second guess this is the role balance. There has not been a protective role other than Thoth. It was a shitty protective role. With wf being able to grab that from the graveyard it makes way more sense from a balance perspective. Do mafia really just get to free kill and still have town die the following np with no chance of protecting and if Thoth dies there is 0 protection. 

The thing that I keep coming back to is that Luna said that Thoth couldn’t replace back in. That must mean there’s some role out there that prevents him from coming back, and the only role even remotely similar is Whiteflame’s

leaves me pie - from the start of the game since dp1 I’ve questioned it. I felt like he was soft claiming a power role dp1 and changed it after I said he could confirm me and suggested he had to be passive. Martyr is also obscure.

Developer and Scavenger are also obscure.

Basically a beloved and a good way for to explain why he’s not dead. I am also stuck on Casey’s PM. We know that character exists in the game and from a theme analysis standpoint, it’s the only one that makes sense. That doctor turns her into a queen. I know Luna said the theme was hard but imagine if that recruit did not get used at the start. That theme becomes a lot harder to see. 

Here’s the thematic link between David and Wren. They were both engineering Xenomorphs and are immoral af. Also, we’re back to the whole game of who was converted and who wasn’t. The goal should be to catch the original scum and via POE that has to be Whiteflame.

You were adamant about the motivator so you aren’t OG scum

I had soft claimed DP1. I wanted scum to either kill me or get waste an action on me. I can’t be OG scum

Wryly is basically the sole investigative, so she can’t be the OG scum

Kohai had no reason to CC Thoth in DP1 as OG scum.

That leaves Whiteflame. It’s possible your role could have other protectives in it as well. Not to mention even a single successful apportionment at the beginning of the game would basically mod confirm Thoth and the player whose life was extended.

I think I’m content with this path 

kill pie 

kill David and if David is not scum, have David shot wf last dp. If David is scum we win. 

This assumes that I’m the original scum, which I’m not.

that is prob the solve either way between wf or pie but I’m leaning pie to start with over wf. Largely because if the one we pick is town the game is over. They could just both be scum too.

So who wants to hear a conspiracy theory?

Last time Luna had a Yakuza in the game, Casey was the Yakuza and WF was the scum partner. They fucked up using the Yakuza. Second chance to redeem themselves?

Why would they waste an action on each other? In addition, it makes more sense for them to bullshit this claim then it does for them to waste an action.

Is it really wasting if one is town and the other is scum? Both Mikal and Wryly can be telling the truth, but one of them can still be scum.

B-C. That’s my point. Either they’re the scum team making this up or they’re both town.

Again, that’s not true. If Mikal was recruited, he would retain his town role. He can follow Wryly still. If Wryly was recruited, she would retain her Tracker and be able to track Mikal

I think whiteflame is objectively the best lynch today. 

I agree with this

mikal and castin cannot be town / scum. If so this would require one of them to use a non lethal action on the other and also not role block each other. This is absurd.

A) Where’d the idea of a roleblock come from

B) Why can’t a recruited Mikal use a Follower on Castin

C) Why can’t a recruited Castin use the Tracker on Mikal

Either they’re the scum team making this up or they’re both town. I’m leaning towards both of them being town - esp given Castin’s derp tell.

they cannot be town / scum.

Why not?

The only world where I see Mikal still being scum is if he's the recruit and used his night action on me to farm town cred. I don't think that's what happened, but it is a possibility. 

Which is a possibility for sure. Same with you as well from my POV. That’s why trying to catch the recruited scum is so difficult. But if we catch the OG scum it opens everything up. Mikal can’t be OG because of how confident he was in his Motivator. You can’t be the OG scum cause I believe there’s a Tracker in the game—basically the sole major investigative role. I don’t think Kohai is the OG scum because he didn’t have to claim that early in the game. I know I’m town. Who does that leave? Whiteflame.

Vader being NK'd instead of me is troubling. 

Since Kohai is a non-option in all this I'll need to do isos on Pie and whiteflame tomorrow. For now, I'm tired.

Another thing pointing me in the white flame / pie direction is I don’t see Mikal as recruiting Castin

Either Castin or Mikal can be the recruited scum

that’s kinda where I am at right now. That would honestly clear them as a team if wf is original scum. 

Wym clear as a team?

plus I have a very hard time believing he would be able to obtain the power of a townie before he was even flipped let alone using it twice 

Wym?

Who do you think it is? Do you think castin / mikal are making this up?

I think WF is OG mafia for sure. I’ve maintained that via the POE since yesterday. As for who is the recruited scum, I need to reread to determine that after all the information revealed today

As for them making it up, I don’t think either of them did.

I’m not scum dude

This town confirms you for me. Of the three remaining, I sus Kohai the least, and we couldn't lynch him this DP even if I did.

So, whiteflame and Pie.

1) Why did you choose Mikal?

2) Why does that town confirm him?

I meant the justification of how Xenomorph connects to Vengeful Townie

Well if you are scum the game is already over. So GG. We just have to play it out. 

Why is it over?

Justification please

What did yall do last night?

Everyone needs to repost their justifications please.

He said he asks about a character. If that character is in the game. He has to impulse visit them. He’s told if that character is in the game but not who is the character 

it’s why it makes no sense

Go read his most previous post. He just flipped back to “role”

I’m going to

VTL REF

If Luna has what he claimed in the game, I will be baffled.

Pie's role has zero town utility. Now that he's disclosed it scum will never NK him if he's town. Mine at least has some. I'd agree that it will have zero utility next DP, but it has at least some now. And should we really be lynching based on role utility when we have two lynches left and one will likely be a policy lynch of you next DP, and then a shot in the dark if you are town?

My role makes sense in a game Luna said was going to be swingy. From a game design standpoint, my role makes sense. Your only argument here is a WIFOM argument that I’m one of the best options to recruit. Period. That’s all you have.

Your role makes zero sense from a mod design perspective. Even night makes zero sense. Character cop makes zero sense. You don’t even have utility if scum just claim their true role.

I disagree with REF that he should have faked his claim as town (the risk of just being lynched as a result was substantial and too many of those types of efforts fall apart), but I'm surprised that he didn't try to garner everyone's claims first before yielding his own.

Mass claiming together is always better. It works in our live games all the time. And let’s say, I waited, then the opposite argument would be used against me. Pie waited till the end to claim and therefore his role is fake. You can paint any picture you want with WIFOM.

Considering how many of our past games have involved Pie trying to push back on claiming until everyone else had claimed, this does stand out. Granted, the Yakuza flip changed things and the massclaim push itself is different, and granted, it's something I would scumread from most anyone else if they were withholding their claim to see how things shake out. Pie usually tries to hold off as much as possible, though, and this particular role would only afford him more reason to do so.

And then the flip side of this argument would occur as I mentioned above.

Activity could have been spun out of speculating over the recruit and pushing for claims in a more sensible manner.

I didn’t see you doing this once. Not last DP, not this one.

Once activity starts it feeds itself. In fact, I'd say the long amount of time spent arguing about a mass claim consituted a derailment of otherwise productive discussion over who was recruited and more surgical application of pressure towards likely candidates.

I’ve said since the beginning, the whole likely recruit vs unlikely recruit is all WIFOM. You’re never going to know. Casey is smart enough so it’s a best 50/50 shot to choosing someone who is obvious vs not. Choosing someone who would be scumread after DP1 vs not.

The subtle push for a lynch was also towards people not in the likely recruit pool, who should be under the most scrutiny imo.

The best play this DP is finding the original scum member. And then using their flip and behavior this DP to piggyback onto the next one to catch the recruit.

I think you pushed a mass claim for two reasons. One is that you wanted to disclose your role but didn't want it to look scummy, so a mass claim lets you do that.

Let’s be honest to ourselves here. I basically had already soft claimed the shit out of my role early on. So your only argument here is that I was converted. And that’s entirely based on WIFOM cause you believe that’s my true role in first place. You’re also forgetting that a mass claim would entail my true partner claiming and possible getting caught with that fake claim. So there’s no point to advocating for that mass claim.

The other is that you wanted to get all the info on the table to plan your night action now that there's no protective roles (Whiteflame's role was unknown at the time).

This logic isn’t unique to me. Yes, it’s information for scum, everyone knows that. But everyone agreed that the pros outweigh the cons in this scenario.

That way the scum team can eliminate any investigative roles NP2 and, if they pull off a mislynch today, go hard for another mislynch next DP and clinch the game. Whereas without a mass claim even if we didn't lynch scum today we could at least have the investigative roles protected via anonymity and have some results to discuss next DP. As town you could have let pressure fall on you, as it naturally would, and claim something that would draw the NK but instead you subtly pushed pressure elsewhere while acting in ways that only make sense if you are scum.

Again, you’re assuming that I would lie about my role. That’s not true at all, and I’ve advised other townies that unless they’re 100% sure there aren’t drawbacks, they shouldn’t. If I claimed something that was CCed, that’s throwing the game. You’re saying I could’ve “acted” another way. That’s just personal preference, not an argument for scum lol.

I don't think it's a fake claim, I think it's your original role and you were recruited.

Okay, glad you got your story straight.

Now that you are scum, you see the role as useless and want to use it as a tool to explain why you haven't been Nkd as the game goes on.

Or mass claiming was the only way to generate reads cause DP1 was useless with the quick hammer. Plus I already mentioned the strategy for this DP.

A mass claim allows you to put it out there and instrumentalize the role in that way. If you were town you'd see the role for the potent weapon that it is and want to keep it hidden at all costs, and try to bait the NK this NP - because you would be thinking they fired off the yakuza recruit DP1 instead of killing you and that you're still a the top of their shitlist.

So you think I suggested a mass claiming and claimed Martyr for towncred? Yes, I would like to keep my role hidden, but we had no path forward because DP1 there was nothing. Rather sitting here twiddling our thumbs, I led the initiative. You wouldn’t even be talking about this if I hadn’t suggested the mass claim lol, so it’s really rich that you’re calling me out for my claim when you didn’t even want to mass claim in the first place.

I just fundamentally disagree that a Yakuza upends behavioral reads. I think it makes them more important. A player who has flipped alignment will change their behavior in ways which diverts from their normal town meta and often from their behavior pre-recruitment.

That would be true…if we had any behavior to analyze in the first place. The DP ended super fast because of the hammer by Mikal. You have to bet that he was the original scum, but that doesn’t explain why he thought I could confirm him. Plus as the hammerer, he’d have the biggest target on his back.

Pie, for example, just went through all the rigamarole about what killing David means this DP vc next DP and agonized over how many NKs we will have. Then he claimed a role which, if he is NK'd, will buy us another night.

Yes, because I’m not going to lie about my role. I’ve made it fully aware to others that I think fake claiming as scum should only be done in extraordinary circumstances. And you’re also forgetting that I have to stay alive to be able to have a chance at being NKed.

Pie is often targetted early in the game when he is town. If you were Pie and new this and weren't recruited, wouldn't the obvious pro-town move be to draw the NK?

I did. In DP1. But this DP, we were forced to full claim. Hell, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation if I didn’t claim. So which is it? We shouldn’t have claimed or Pie’s claim is “bad.”

I'd even fake-claim in that situation to make myself a juicier target. I think the benefit of that overwhlems whatever we gained from this mass claim.

I disagree because I don’t agree with your risk assessment.

On the contrary, if you were Pie and were recruited (very likely scenario), wouldn't you want to mass claim? If you are Pie and are scum, one of the hardest things to explain as the game drags on is why you haven't been killed yet when it is basically scum meta to do so.

As I mentioned to Supa, why would I fake claim this if I was converted? I would have just used my true town role. If you hate my claim, then you have to assume I was the original scum, not the converted

His claim is perfect for explaining that very thing. Disclosing it has huge anti-town ramifications while being very beneficial to scum. If he out and disclosed it on his own it would look sus, but as part of a mass claim it looks far more natural.

So you think I was the original scum? You can’t have it both ways. Either I was converted and so my “behavior” is wrong or I am the original scum fake claiming this when I had already sorted DP1.

To be honest. I think that it is more likely than not that Pie got converted and scrambled for a fake claim than Ref messing up his claim Imo.

Again, why would I fake claim if I was converted? If you think I am fake claiming, then you have to think that I am the original scum. Converted scum can just claim their original town role.

When I was mafia with him he seemed to have his shit in order and wanted to plan things out. He’s also a good enough player that I could not see him fucking up a claim.

If you’re talking about REF, he definitely messed up the role claim when he was scum with Banana. The soft claims got them early, and he was just as uneager to have people claim then.

I also know Casey is a big fan of Pie’s mafia play and if anything would choose Pie. Along with some behaviors I pointed out before and his more defensive attitude, I think Pie is a better lynch than REF

What do you think is defensive? I’ve been pushing for the mass claim the entire DP to generate roles and reads so we can lynch to the best of our abilities. Your logic is severely flawed in the sense, anyone could be converted, but there’s only one original scum. Once we catch that one, it should be easy from there

VTL Pie

I am probably gonna be dead wrong about this and it’s gonna be REF and I overthought this, but fuck it

So you think you’re going to be wrong about my lynch, yet you’re still going for it?

Pie wanting a mass claim also makes zero sense as town. He knows he's almost always NKd as town, he has a role in which him baiting the NK basically stops the NK for the next NP. He should have wanted to stay quiet about the role and bait the NK - which wouldn't be hard seeing as he's Pie and is an NK magnet to begin with, but instead he outed that info. As scum, he would have motivation to out his role because it being out there will serve as an excuse for why he hasn't been NK'd going forward. When someone says 'why haven't you been NK'd yet' he can say 'well, scum won't NK me because it will cost them an NP!' I see a lot of scum motivation for him disclosing his role and pretty much zero town motivation. This is especially bad given that he was one of the big people pushing the mass claim - nobody had to twist his arm to spill the tea.

People have said this multiple times, but we had zero behavioral reads to go off of because of the Yakuza. We had to do something to generate those unique reads. The mass claim was the way to do that. Did I want to keep my role hidden? Obviously. I tried baiting the NK DP1, but they had a Yakuza.

As for your role. I’ve mentioned why there’s basically zero utility in its use.

A) It’s even night so you could get max 2 shots off, but even that is unlikely because Luna said the game was swingy

B) The theme is complex, so scum could just claim their original character.

C) Even if you die, if WF is telling the truth, he can use your role and investigate someone

Remind me of your justification again?

This is obviously true and I still consider Mikal an option but to be honest I feel like a lot of people value you as a mafia player rather than someone else. It is a bit of recency bias where you have dominated and swept games. WF is good but I have reason to believe he is town at the moment but he could be in my pool.

What reason do you have to believe he is town?

Mikal is the only one I'm considering, and even then, he hasn't shown any indication that he is mafia. He also was under the impression you were ready to be confirmed until the recruit happened.

He knew about conversion before he said Pie can confirm I’m town. The leap from using a motivator on someone to auto town doesn’t mean anything. He could’ve been a converted mafia. Regardless, the goal of today should be to kill the original mafia as I’ve said countless times. The 2 people that fit that bill are REF and WF right now