vtl Thoth
I think this is the right call. Would prefer not to give the big reason why, but I also think scum are on the Vader wagon
vtl Thoth
I think this is the right call. Would prefer not to give the big reason why, but I also think scum are on the Vader wagon
Also if this is role mad a vanilla and miller take away from that notion. I can buy one of the two existing. I think we are on the right track here and there is scum between one of these two. I think it’s Thoth though.
Is everyone on right now?
We have 12 minutes, fuck
Looks like Whiteflame voted Vader and kohai shortly after so I’m guessing Whiteflame?
What’s the vote? Who started the Vader wagon and why?
If we had to choose between Thoth and Vader I definitely favor Thoth, but I won’t prevent a lynch going through. Not caught up on the last two pages. Woke up late today
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/25/2026 at 12:07 PM (post #229)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/25/2026 at 11:24 AM (post #225)
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/25/2026 at 10:14 AM (post #223)
Pie — Scum lean
I've moved Pie down somewhat.
I understand his explanation for the visitor situation better now, and I think the reaction test itself was reasonable enough as a concept. My issue is that I'm not convinced the results of the test are as alignment-indicative as Pie seems to think they are.
He’s also a claimed Doctor. I didn’t clear him until after he did that. Match the behavior with the role and the likely conclusion is he’s town from my pov.
So your reaction test was basically useless unless he full claimed? You could have accomplished the same thing from just throwing random pressure on anyone who was a doc and getting lucky. That's my point; You aren't making a good case for what this reaction test was ever intended to accomplish in the first place.
No? I said it was a piece of a puzzle. I had a vague expectation for how people would react. That’s half the equation. His reaction felt townie to me, but then the Doctor solidified it.
Just seems like if mafia had visited you they wouldn’t fess up to it, and it was 90% more likely if you weren’t killed you were just visited by town. Only roles I could think of would be redirector and roleblocker that you would be paranoid of. Did you think you were redirected?
Magic being willing to explain himself and offer a full claim doesn't necessarily distinguish town from scum, and I'm not convinced that Magic "passing" the test should carry as much weight as Pie is giving it.
I think it does. Mafia would be rattled and instantly claim someone. Only way Magic is scum is if Doctor is a fake role claim, and scum visited me with something
I mean if you have doctor as a fake claim up your sleeve, how "rattled" are you ever going to be? I've been pressuring magic since day one, and have been back and forth with him for pages. You think if he was scum he wasn't already "rattled" by that? You think it was you claiming to have been visited that would have shook him to the core?
I think it definitely would’ve been concerning, but this again assumes that Doctor is a fake claim. If there was a CC, it just implicates him, so I wasn’t really concerned about that. With no CC though, it’s more likely than not he’s town.
The doctor being a fake claim is the only scenario I think magic would be scum. But yeah at this point with no other protection roles claimed we’d have to believe there wasn’t another protection. Possible but feels unlikely.
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/25/2026 at 10:14 AM (post #223)
Pie — Scum lean
I've moved Pie down somewhat.
I understand his explanation for the visitor situation better now, and I think the reaction test itself was reasonable enough as a concept. My issue is that I'm not convinced the results of the test are as alignment-indicative as Pie seems to think they are.
He’s also a claimed Doctor. I didn’t clear him until after he did that. Match the behavior with the role and the likely conclusion is he’s town from my pov.
So your reaction test was basically useless unless he full claimed? You could have accomplished the same thing from just throwing random pressure on anyone who was a doc and getting lucky. That's my point; You aren't making a good case for what this reaction test was ever intended to accomplish in the first place.
Magic being willing to explain himself and offer a full claim doesn't necessarily distinguish town from scum, and I'm not convinced that Magic "passing" the test should carry as much weight as Pie is giving it.
I think it does. Mafia would be rattled and instantly claim someone. Only way Magic is scum is if Doctor is a fake role claim, and scum visited me with something
I mean if you have doctor as a fake claim up your sleeve, how "rattled" are you ever going to be? I've been pressuring magic since day one, and have been back and forth with him for pages. You think if he was scum he wasn't already "rattled" by that? You think it was you claiming to have been visited that would have shook him to the core?
You’ve made 8 posts this day phase brother
If Pie is scum, I see a few possible partner scenarios:
Pie + Kohai: Pie's sustained pressure on Kohai is distancing. They can fight publicly while keeping each other in the POE. Kohai's resistance makes the conflict look genuine.
Pie + Thoth: Thoth's early vote on Pie could be distancing, while Pie largely leaves Thoth alone afterward. They stay separated without needing to defend each other.
Pie + Magic: The Doctor/visit situation could be coordinated. Magic gets a strong claim through Pie, while Pie gets confirmation from Magic's claim and can use the interaction to build credibility.
Pie + Vader: The weaker theory. Vader's Miller claim and his independent suspicion of Kohai don't give me much obvious partner equity with Pie.
Right now, Kohai is the scenario I'd investigate most, but I don't think any of these are conclusive.
Current reads:
Kohai — Scum lean
Still my biggest concern. The Tree Stump claim itself isn't particularly useful to me since we've known about it for a while, and I still don't think his overall solving has been strong enough.
What I want from Kohai at this point is an actual solve. Who are his top two scumreads, who is his strongest townread, and what does he think the rest of us are getting wrong? I care more about that than another explanation of the claim.
Pie — Scum lean
I've moved Pie down somewhat.
I understand his explanation for the visitor situation better now, and I think the reaction test itself was reasonable enough as a concept. My issue is that I'm not convinced the results of the test are as alignment-indicative as Pie seems to think they are.
Magic being willing to explain himself and offer a full claim doesn't necessarily distinguish town from scum, and I'm not convinced that Magic "passing" the test should carry as much weight as Pie is giving it.
More broadly, I still want to understand Pie's overall solving and some of his interactions from earlier in the phase. I don't think the visitor situation is enough by itself to clear him.
Thoth — Light scum lean
The claim itself is actually one of the things I find more believable about Thoth. The Sun → Red Giant explanation fits several of his earlier breadcrumbs, particularly the stuff about his PM contradicting the OP.
But that doesn't automatically make the slot town. Some of the questions Pie has raised about Thoth's behavior are worth looking into, and I don't think his Vanilla claim should get him out of scrutiny.
So I'm not at the point where I'd make Thoth one of my primary suspects, but I'm leaning more suspicious than I was previously.
Mag1c — Null
I've backed off this one.
I still don't love some of Magic's reasoning, particularly his interpretation of the NP1 kill, but the Doctor claim is harder for me to dismiss now. Pie independently knew someone visited him, Magic claimed to have been the visitor, and Pie has explained why Magic's reaction passed his test.
I don't think that completely clears Magic, but I also don't think I have enough to continue treating him as one of my stronger scumreads. I'm putting him in null for now and watching what he does from here.
Vader — Null / slight town
The Miller claim isn't something I'm giving automatic town credit for, but I do think his independent read on Kohai/Magic is worth considering.
I'm still trying to separate what Vader himself has done from the history of the slot before the replacement, so I'm not comfortable making a strong read here yet. A bit more activity would be helpful. I don't think miller is a claim vader would immediately make after just being mislynched in dp1. A lot of my read on him is just my gut telling me the mod wouldn't make him scum right after he got mislynched, and that it would be incredibly unlucky for that to be the case. But if he is scum then I think miller is probably scums safe claim.
Whiteflame — Town lean
Probably one of my stronger town leans at the moment.
His willingness to reconsider Kohai after rereading the earlier phase is something I like, and I don't see a major issue with his character claim. More importantly, I think his reads have generally felt like he's actually trying to work through the game rather than just defend an existing position.
So at the moment, my rough grouping is:
Scum lean: Kohai, Pie
Light scum lean: Thoth
Null: Magic, Vader
Town lean: Whiteflame
I'm intentionally leaving Magic in the middle rather than forcing him into either alignment. I had a pretty strong case against him earlier, but I think the newer information warrants reassessing that rather than pretending nothing changed.
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/24/2026 at 11:07 PM (post #203)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 11:12 PM (post #195)
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/24/2026 at 9:58 PM (post #191)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 10:55 PM (post #190)
If your role tells you that someone visited you, but not who or what they did, why was your immediate reaction to demand the visitor confess rather than simply reveal that you had been visited?
I already said that it was a reaction test to potentially catch scum.
I remember you saying it was a reaction test; I was asking more about what you were trying to get out of the reaction test. If you only knew that someone had visited you, what specifically were you looking for in people's reactions that would distinguish a scum visitor from a town visitor? A scum visitor could just stay quiet, but a town visitor could also choose not to immediately claim. And if someone did confess, that doesn't necessarily make them scum either.
I'm more interested in what your actual criteria were for the test, especially since you said Magic passed it. What did Magic's response do that made you think he passed the test rather than simply being a plausible Doctor explanation?
I don't think the reaction test itself is inherently bad. I just don't want "it was a reaction test" to end the discussion when the useful information is what the test was designed to detect and what Magic did that satisfied it.
Test was designed to detect hesitancy or any sort of ask for more details, though everyone would react differently. Scum would usually ask for more details to decide how they approach me if they did visit me. Mag1c’s reaction wasn’t apprehensive. He even went so far as to say that he’d be willing to full claim even if I told him to, which he also did.
Okay, that makes more sense. I understand what you were testing for now.
I think my issue is that I'm not sure the reactions you're looking for are particularly alignment indicative.
If someone gets told "I know you visited me, confess," I would expect a town player who actually did visit to potentially ask for more information before claiming, especially if they don't know what the other person knows. Likewise, a scum player could just immediately claim a plausible role and avoid showing hesitation.
So I don't think asking for details necessarily points toward scum, and I don't think being willing to full claim necessarily points toward town.
With Magic specifically, I can see why his willingness to explain himself made him pass your test. But I'm not sure what about his response was something that scum Magic would have been unlikely to do.
Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 10:29 PM (post #199)
Observing previous Bullish games
https://web.archive.org/web/20251015005929/https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/12683-jet-fighters-mafia-endgame - 1 Vanilla
https://web.archive.org/web/20250716065929/https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5494-crimes-mafia-endgame - 1 Vanilla
https://web.archive.org/web/20250714201327/https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4890-technology-mafia-endgame - 2 Vanillas
Good info to know. Given the games are older, I will take that with a grain of salt. But its not hard to believe a single vanilla would exist in any games template tbh.
Nope.
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/24/2026 at 9:58 PM (post #191)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 10:55 PM (post #190)
If your role tells you that someone visited you, but not who or what they did, why was your immediate reaction to demand the visitor confess rather than simply reveal that you had been visited?
I already said that it was a reaction test to potentially catch scum.
I remember you saying it was a reaction test; I was asking more about what you were trying to get out of the reaction test. If you only knew that someone had visited you, what specifically were you looking for in people's reactions that would distinguish a scum visitor from a town visitor? A scum visitor could just stay quiet, but a town visitor could also choose not to immediately claim. And if someone did confess, that doesn't necessarily make them scum either.
I'm more interested in what your actual criteria were for the test, especially since you said Magic passed it. What did Magic's response do that made you think he passed the test rather than simply being a plausible Doctor explanation?
I don't think the reaction test itself is inherently bad. I just don't want "it was a reaction test" to end the discussion when the useful information is what the test was designed to detect and what Magic did that satisfied it.
Quick thoughts on the current claims since we've gotten a lot more information now.
Mag1c — Doctor / God-Judgment Day
The Doctor claim itself makes sense enough, especially given the interaction with Pie. Pie's reaction makes me less interested in arguing that Magic fabricated the visit. I'm still not completely sold on some of Magic's reasoning around the NP1 kill, but I think that's a separate issue from whether the claim itself is legitimate.
Thoth — Vanilla / Sun- Red Giant
This one is weird to me. The character/apocalypse makes sense with what Thoth was saying in DP1, and I buy that his earlier breadcrumbs were actually pointing toward the PM contradiction he eventually explained.
The Vanilla part is what I'm less comfortable with. I don't think "role madness means scum wouldn't fake Vanilla" is enough to clear him, and I'm not sure I buy the assumption that every role in this setup has to be especially complicated. Still, the fact that his earlier breadcrumbs actually line up with the claim is meaningful.
Kohai — Tree Stump / Zombie Apocalypse
I still don't really understand this one. The Tree Stump claim itself isn't new, so I'm less interested in the fact that he's sticking with it and more interested in whether his explanation actually fits the character/role setup. He did warn us in advance multiple times that the justification made no sense, but a justification not making sense is kind of different from having virtually no link or justification, which is basically what is happening here.
More importantly, his claim doesn't really answer my biggest issue with Kohai, which is his overall contribution and solving. I want to see an actual solve from him rather than just more justification for why his claim makes sense.
Whiteflame — Ice-IX / Cat's Cradle
The character claim makes sense with the apocalypse theme, and I don't have a huge issue with it mechanically. I also think his earlier DP1 breadcrumbs are at least consistent with what he's claiming now.
I'm still not sure where I stand on his actual alignment, though. Claim-wise, nothing here is screaming fake to me. I don't have any glaring red flags with him behaviorally yet either.
Pie — AI Takeover
This is the one I'm most interested in now that we've gotten the apocalypse claim.
I understand why Pie doesn't want to immediately give the role, especially since he claims his role is what told him somebody visited him. But that also means the role itself is important to evaluating the Magic interaction.
So I want to know what the actual mechanical information is that his role gave him, and exactly what he knew when he made the "confess or be lynched" post.
Vader — Miller / False Vacuum Decay
I don't have much to add beyond what I've already said. Miller is inherently difficult to verify from the claim alone, so I'm mostly judging the slot based on behavior and progression rather than the claim.
Overall, I think the claims have given us a lot more information, but I don't think "who has the weirdest claim" is going to solve this by itself. I'd rather look at how the claims interact with people's actual behavior and the information we've gotten from NP1.
If your role tells you that someone visited you, but not who or what they did, why was your immediate reaction to demand the visitor confess rather than simply reveal that you had been visited?
Dead:
Banana- Alien Invasion- Even Night Follower
Vader1- Solar Flare- 2x Roleblocker
Claims:
Thoth- Sun turning into red giant- Vanilla
Whiteflame- Ice-IX from Cat’s Cradle
Vader 2- Vacuum Decay- Miller
Lunatic- Nuclear War
Mag1cMan- God exists and we face judgment- Doctor (chose Jesus as his god) (protected pie)
Kohai- Zombie Apocalypse- Tree Stump
Pie- AI Takeover- (knows someone visited him)
unvote
Just seen you made a claims list too lol
VTL pie for a claim, he is the last to claim.
Claims:
Thoth- Sun turning into red giant- Vanilla
Whiteflame- Ice-IX from Cat’s Cradle
Vader 2- Vacuum Decay- Miller
Lunatic- Nuclear War
Mag1cMan- God exists and we face judgment- Doctor (chose Jesus as his god) (protected pie)
Kohai- Zombie Apocalypse- Tree Stump
Unclaimed:
Pie (knows someone visited him)
Softs, justifications:
Thoth- Sun turning into red giant- Vanilla
“Yes, I am a vanilla townie, which, as Mag1c noted, means the game is not rolemad per my understanding of rolemad, hence why I said the OP was wrong. My 'character', i.e., apocalypse, is the Sun turning into a red giant and swallowing the Earth. Justification is that this will happen in a billion years, so almost nobody today cares about it or preps for it. " - Post 161 dp2
“At least one statement in the OP is false” + “I am not an Informed Townie.” - Post 5 dp1
“My role PM contradicts a statement in the OP.” - Post 30 dp1
Says he is saying #30 mainly to breadcrumb. - Post 31 dp1
Says he suspects Whiteflame's apocalypse range based on his expectations of the game + what he can see from his role PM. - Post 42 dp1
“Mine kinda make sense. It's not what I would have picked for this 'character' (type of apocalypse), but I get Bullish's thinking.” - Post 52 dp1
Says he reread his PM and realized the PM itself is factually incorrect. - Post 87 dp1
Reiterates that the PM is factually incorrect according to his understanding/search. - Post 91 dp1
Whiteflame- Ice-IX from Cat’s Cradle
“I’m the Ice-Nine or Ice-XI apocalypse from Cat’s Cradle, my favorite Kurt Vonnegut book. “- Post 166 dp2
Says he got “one of my all-time favorite apocalypses.” - Post 8 dp1
Says his apocalypse gives him “clear grounding” on what the game encompasses; suggests the range goes from events killing many people/fundamentally changing the world to the end of humanity. - Post 10 dp1
His apocalypse is from a book. - Post 37 dp1
Vader 2- Vacuum Decay- Miller
“I am a Miller” - Post 13 dp2
“My character is false vacuum decay. It’s a fake a quantum state that is meta stable and because I am false I am Miller” - Post 14 dp2
Lunatic- Nuclear War
“Mine's a pretty common fear, though im unsure how realistic it is. Maybe more realistic if you buy into paranoia from recent events.” - Post 65
“Nuclear Warfare. Not role claiming at this time, especially before a kohai full claim and a Thoth claim.“ - Post 123
Mag1cMan- God exists and we face judgment- Doctor (chose Jesus as his god)
“You might ask, how does that lead to Doctor? The answer is that I got to choose which god exists NP0. My options were Athena, Ra, and Jesus.
I thought this game had a lot more moving parts and bs roles than it actually did, so I chose Jesus hoping to get something really OP like a res ability, and got Doctor, because Jesus healed the sick, the crippled, and the demonically possessed.” - Post 105 dp2
“too many people are afraid of mine.” Says there are a couple different ways it could happen and knows a couple in his town who prepare for it. - Post 68 dp1
Kohai- Zombie Apocalypse- Tree Stump
“Role: Zombie apocalypse” - Post 144 dp2
“Zombies were dead but are back to life to eat your brian. Hence i come back to life as a tree stump” - Post 146 dp2
“my character, along with the justification and role, make absolutely zero sense whatsoever.” - Post 51 dp1
“I won’t claim character or justification. I will however claim tree stump.” Says this explains why he was hesitant to claim and that he is effectively stuck in the game for its duration. - Post 274 dp1
Unclaimed:
Pie
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/24/2026 at 3:52 PM (post #142)
It’s been… a day, got a lot busier when I had to handle a mess at home. My bandwidth is lower than usual, but I’ll try to be involved from here.
If the consensus is that we want to move on from Mag1c, that’s fine, though I still have reservations there. I’ll set those aside for now. Pie at least knows he was visited. It’s unclear if he knew Mag1c was the one to do it, but he buys his claim. I could see a world in which they do this as a scum team, though it seems pretty convoluted. I could see them just both being town.
As for who to put attention on, I don’t think we’re going to get much more out of Kohai. Maybe he gives up his full claim, but we’ll likely still be in the same boat with him unless someone has information on his night action or lack thereof. Absent that, I’m more interested in Thoth’s claim, particularly after he started fishing for mine.
VTL Thoth
I also don't understand why he was fishing for yours if he was just assuming you were a vanilla. That is literally pointless, even if you assume you know someone's a vanilla, you never call attention to that.
Originally Posted by Thoth on 9/24/2026 at 5:58 PM (post #148)
I am sorry, guys. I have been sick. I am vanilla. I will try to post more in a bit. I was thinking whiteflame might be vanilla too based on him saying something similar to my PM. I don’t think he should confirm or deny if he hasn’t yet.
A single vanilla existing doesn't reduce a game from being role mad btw. More than one maybe.
Also still waiting on pie. Anyways going to bed for reals