Mag1cman wrote:
I mean the big question for OoO is redirector vs lightningrod
Redirector is earlier. But redirector is basically Mikal's role but he's claiming it's called 'magnet'
Mag1cman wrote:
I mean the big question for OoO is redirector vs lightningrod
Redirector is earlier. But redirector is basically Mikal's role but he's claiming it's called 'magnet'
Casey_Risk wrote:
RexFavilla wrote:
Something about Mikal feels off to me. I have the nagging feeling that he's playing dumb.
How so?
I dunno, something Pie said to me stuck in my head - that Mikal's role is basically a redirector and that redirector would fall in the same place in OoO as Mikal's role. Mikal's description of a magnet doesn't match any description that I've heard of in the game. It basically is exactly a redirector. Pie interpreted the mechanic as identical to a redirector. I don't think Pie would call that role a magnet. And I feel like Mikal has been fumbling since his claim, pretending like the ooo discussion is 'too much' for him. From the way I heard it went down, he and WF revealed their roles to one another and Mikal was sort of half-cced for also having a magnetic metal and came up with this role in response. Since I now think WF is town, I feel like Mikal maybe got a magnetic metal as a fake claim and was thinking of claiming actual magnet or lightning rod but had to come up with something on the fly once WF outed. If WF can tell me I'm off base on this, please do. But it feels like this claim is an albatross around his neck that he just doesn't want to look at or talk about and it's making him awkward and difficult. The pep is out of his step so to speak.
Something about Mikal feels off to me. I have the nagging feeling that he's playing dumb.
whiteflame wrote:
RexFavilla wrote:
whiteflame wrote:
RexFavilla wrote:
I tried to target Magic to track him tonight because I figured someone outside the POE would carry out the nightkill, so I could either clear or catch him. I was vanillaized. I also got no result. I asked Pie if another role aside from a vanillaizer would be required to cancel my night action, and if another hypothetical tracker targeting me would see me visiting Magic tonight. He said they would not see me targeting Magic and that vanillaizer alone would be enough to eliminate my result. This means that being successfully targeted by a vanillaizer under Pie's system means that you DO NOT MOVE. Whiteflame claiming to have been vanillaized and me seeing him visit Shining cannot both be true. He is lying.
VTL: Whiteflame
Do me a favor: ask Pie what the order of operations are on Lightning Rod vs. Vanillaizer and on Vanillaizer vs. Tracker. Spoiler: one of our roles processes before the Vanillaizer and the other doesn’t.
Should have kept your trap shut to see who hopped on the wagon lol.
You and I both know that this was the subject of pretty extensive discussion last DP. Doubt scum would have fallen for it unless they just refused to pay attention to it.
We didn't discuss my tracker's ooo at all iirc. I myself had never asked pie about it as it seemed irrelevant to the matter in question.
This whole thing just makes me believe more that WF was actually vanillaized and is town.
UNVOTE
whiteflame wrote:
RexFavilla wrote:
I tried to target Magic to track him tonight because I figured someone outside the POE would carry out the nightkill, so I could either clear or catch him. I was vanillaized. I also got no result. I asked Pie if another role aside from a vanillaizer would be required to cancel my night action, and if another hypothetical tracker targeting me would see me visiting Magic tonight. He said they would not see me targeting Magic and that vanillaizer alone would be enough to eliminate my result. This means that being successfully targeted by a vanillaizer under Pie's system means that you DO NOT MOVE. Whiteflame claiming to have been vanillaized and me seeing him visit Shining cannot both be true. He is lying.
VTL: Whiteflame
Do me a favor: ask Pie what the order of operations are on Lightning Rod vs. Vanillaizer and on Vanillaizer vs. Tracker. Spoiler: one of our roles processes before the Vanillaizer and the other doesn’t.
Should have kept your trap shut to see who hopped on the wagon lol.
I tried to target Magic to track him tonight because I figured someone outside the POE would carry out the nightkill, so I could either clear or catch him. I was vanillaized. I also got no result. I asked Pie if another role aside from a vanillaizer would be required to cancel my night action, and if another hypothetical tracker targeting me would see me visiting Magic tonight. He said they would not see me targeting Magic and that vanillaizer alone would be enough to eliminate my result. This means that being successfully targeted by a vanillaizer under Pie's system means that you DO NOT MOVE. Whiteflame claiming to have been vanillaized and me seeing him visit Shining cannot both be true. He is lying.
VTL: Whiteflame
WHITEFLAME IS GUARANTEED SCUM
Casey_Risk wrote:
RexFavilla wrote:
VTL Whiteflame
Still waiting for some clarification from Pie but I think WF might have some splainin to do.
If you have more results to share, I'd appreciate it if you did so
Waiting to Pie will clarify a few things, then I will.
Mag1cman wrote:
RexFavilla wrote:
Mag1cman wrote:
Let's say the person you targeted visited multiple players. What result would you get? Ask Pie please.
Did you get Pie to answer this?
Yeah I asked him this before and he said yes.
Yes to what?
I would see both targets of a parson who visits multiple targets.
Mag1cman wrote:
Let's say the person you targeted visited multiple players. What result would you get? Ask Pie please.
Did you get Pie to answer this?
Yeah I asked him this before and he said yes.
VTL Whiteflame
Still waiting for some clarification from Pie but I think WF might have some splainin to do.
Bullish wrote:
yeah but if you vote mikal I only need to convince 2 people instead of 3
Mikal isn't the worst choice. I'm waking up at the asscrack of dawn to go to the gym tomorrow. I'll check back in then and see where we stand.
Bullish wrote:
save me waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa casey's about to suicide herself on to mikal when I flip town
I hear you, but you're preaching to the choir. You need to convince them not me. If I had a dayvig I would have shot Luna DP1, nothing I can do to stop a bad lynch if everyone else is set on it.
Casey_Risk wrote:
Does anyone here have any reason to TR Shining?
Hes cute and prickly like a hedgehog this game. That means he's town.
When he's scum he's slimy and restless like a frog.
VTL: Lunatic
I think I'm going to start my own train, just because him being scum is the nexus of so many of my crackpot theories.
I do think it's possible that Casey pulled a gambit and put a scummate in POE because she thought she would be on the chopping block when Mago flipped town. Think of the incentives. If we lynch the scum in POE (basically a bus with guaranteed mislynches) it will confirm Casey in the eyes of town and allow her to avoid an almost certain lynch that was coming her way in a couple DPs without this gambit. If we kill her and she flips scum, we will exonerate the people in the POE, including her scum buddy. When you look at the incentive structure, this is a good play objectively compared to the alternative of her always being on the chopping block. Just wanted to get that out there in case they murderize me tonight.
When it comes to which person in POE would be her scummate, well that's an interesting question I need to mull on a bit longer. But my gut says Luna because he also had egg on his face from the Mago lynch, was damaged goods, and is good in a cagefight. Also, if she put two town players in who both would have otherwise gotten town cred for trying to save Mago... well that would be pretty diabolical, wouldn't it?
The colossal hardon he has for Mikal and his unwillingness to lynch Casey seem town to me. Scum caught in the POE would want to lynch the dreamer to take out a town power role, because wasting a NK on her will confirm the POE and trap them further so it's best to trick town into mislynching them and then target another power role. Killing other people in the POE, if you're scum, will set you up in a 1v1 with the remaining player. I have more thoughts on this but better to save them for next DP.
I'm just going to come out and say it, loud and proud: I do like Bullish. I don't see him being scum. But I've also never seen his scum game or it was so long ago I forget it so take that with a grain of salt.
If I were a dayvig with multiple clips I'd shoot all of you and let God sort it out.
Seriously though I am so stuck on this. I really want to townread Casey, but she's so good as scum and she's fooled me before. I have a scum read on Luna that still persists. I think he can be scum if Casey is town, it doesn't hurt scum to move a town wagon onto another town and Luna is more than capable of faking it. WF... I thought he was scummy DP1. But that's waned. I feel like Luna's flip would help me read him immensely, if he is the vanillaizer it town confirms him pretty much. Mikal.......
I really don't know about Mikal. I can see Casey, as from her perspective if she is town he is lining up a mislynch combo through her and other members of her dreamer POE who she scumreads less and he had a hardon for her last DP. You can expect the other members of the POE to be targeting him too. He, Luna, and Bullish all have scummy rolls, though I don't see Bullish pulling that nutty claim out of his ass. But I just can't shake the feeling that he doesn't feel as scummy to me as he did the last time he was scum.
Pie confirming this would also mean that Mikal has been lying about what Pie communicated to him about ooo and how his role would interact? Which honestly he could be ballsy enough to do but why?
whiteflame wrote:
RexFavilla wrote:
Busdriver/Redirector would process before Magnet, Magnet would process before Lightning Rod, and all would process before Vanillaizer.
Alright, so if I'm getting this right, this would be how Mikal's and my night actions played out. I'll give two scenarios:
Redirector Scenario -
Bus Driver Scenario -
I believe I have that right.
I double checked with these specific scenarios and will hear back shortly, but yes I think this is how it would shake out. So in the busdriver situation, the vanillaizer could be Luna targeting me but being pulled to you by Mikal, it could be someone targeting Shining, or it could be someone targeting you. In the redirector setting, this means that... well basically the same thing. I don't think Shining would be vanillaized. Luna claimed to target me which makes me thing he actually did. I was probably a good target for that role, as I refused to claim hinting at a power role. I don't recall you doing so. To be honest, this is making me think that Luna might be scum and that there is a busdriver, as it's kind of retarded to have Mikal's role and a redirector.
Busdriver/Redirector would process before Magnet, Magnet would process before Lightning Rod, and all would process before Vanillaizer.
whiteflame wrote:
RexFavilla wrote:
RexFavilla wrote:
WAIT. If Mikal's action resolved first, and he targeted Luna, he should have visited himself. So this all depends on when redirectors and busdrivers resolve.
Second he being Whiteflame. If what Mikal and WF says happened there really should be no way he visited Shining. So the only options to explain vanillaizer is:
Luna is Vanillaizer
Other Vanillaizer targetted WF
WF is lying
Only way to explain WF visiting Shining is:
WF being redirected to shining (I think this would depend on order of operations to be possible as well, and if the ooo does not support this it could only be true if Mikal is lying)
Shining and WF being busdriven (depending on order of operations - but this would mean someone would have to target Shining with the vanillaizer so I would rule this out as he didn't soft any power roles)
WF is lying.
Largely agree up to the Bus Driver. To be specific, it would have to be Luna and Shining that were Bus Driven for things to work out the way they did, not me and Shining (I still would’ve been seen visiting Luna).
If Mikal resolved pulled your action back to yourself (you LRed yourself), you would never have visited Luna so that wouldn't be the case. You would be visiting yourself, and only by switching yourself and Shining could you be conceivably forced to visit Shining. And if that happaned and you were switched, the only way for you to be vanillaized would be if someone targeted Shining for it and then you were switched. But this also depends on ooo.
I don’t really get the assumption that my being redirected in any fashion puts the lie to Mikal’s claim, either. You say this a few times in this post and I don’t get it. I think you’re assuming that the Magnet works in both directions, which is not accurate. Luna’s night actions would be redirected to me by it, not the other way around.
It depends on order of operation. Does your LR get pulled back to you or doesn't it? If Mikal's roll is pulled to target you, does it override a redirector also targeting you? It kind of makes my head hurt ngl, and Mikal is now saying the opposite resolution is true.
With that long left I think I will sleep on this and ISO all three tomorrow.
Mikal had the wrong ooo in his post, which is a bit sus. But I find his overall behavior more town than WF. And Luna is in the dreamer POE.
It's also possible I was redirected but I think that's a long shot. I don't think a busdriving happened because that would mean they would have had to target Shining with the vanillaizer which makes no sense to me.
RexFavilla wrote:
WAIT. If Mikal's action resolved first, and he targeted Luna, he should have visited himself. So this all depends on when redirectors and busdrivers resolve.
Second he being Whiteflame. If what Mikal and WF says happened there really should be no way he visited Shining. So the only options to explain vanillaizer is:
Luna is Vanillaizer
Other Vanillaizer targetted WF
WF is lying
Only way to explain WF visiting Shining is:
WF being redirected to shining (I think this would depend on order of operations to be possible as well, and if the ooo does not support this it could only be true if Mikal is lying)
Shining and WF being busdriven (depending on order of operations - but this would mean someone would have to target Shining with the vanillaizer so I would rule this out as he didn't soft any power roles)
WF is lying.
So we have the two possible conclusions:
Once I get feedback, I think it might be best to lynch within these three. Depending on what Pie says about Ooo, it could be that WF could only be town if Mikal is scum so it's a 1:1.
WAIT. If Mikal's action resolved first, and he targeted Luna, he should have visited himself. So this all depends on when redirectors and busdrivers resolve.
I don't see a vanillaizer targetting Shining. Which imo means either Lunatic is the Vanillaizer and is scum and was forced onto WF or another scum Vanillaizer targeted WF or WF is scum and lying. Him going to shining instead is bizarre to me, it means we would be dealing with a busdriver/redirector on top of a magnet and a lightning rod as he claims to have targeted Luna.
This means that Mikal would have moved WF's lightning rod onto himself since his action resolved first. The question is how a redirector or bus driver would resolve.
I feel like from scum WF's perspective claiming to have the role he did and that he used it on Luna felt safe in the mason PM. It meant that the vanillaizer could have targetted him or Luna, and it also meant that he also wouldn't have to explain future night actions as he could have claimed to be vanilla from then on out. From a town WF perspective, why on earth would scum busdrive Luna and Shining? Why would they redirect WF to Shining of all people?
Tbh the more I hurt my brain thinking about this the worst it makes WF look.