I am town reading them for SOP claiming a negative utility role which is exactly what I would expect from a townie and not a mafia person
The reason this is usually read as town is because scum who do it risk a counterclaim, so while it has rewards for them it also has risks. The incredibly vague way that Ceru claimed eliminates that risk of a counterclaim, so I don't see how it warrants a town read.
Also #NoRegrets will burn even more shit to the ground if anyone ever makes me a fucking TP again
I don't blame you one bit. I absolutely hate being 3p.
3P is actually my favorite alignment. Especially winsteal TP. I'm jealous, lol. The opportunity to be the ultimate scumbag.
VTL Wryly for burning my ass.
I'll play
We wouldn't have NKd her because she had claimed a protective role, same reason we didn't kill you. We knew she wasn't scum and didn't think she would randomly claim a protective role with a flipped doc unless she actually had one. If we missed on that kill, whatever glimmer of a hope we had of winning would have failed. And she did have a 1x commuter, and I would have thought she would have saved it for the late game as a TP survivor.
Oh, and I wanted to nk you in the late game because I thought you would become a Pie toady.
The only thing that annoyed me about this game was giving TP the ability to out a scum player if they used one of the fake claims provided, and giving scum a list of fake claims that exhausted most of the options (if I chose to forgo the fake claims offered and pick another one it would have been a huge stretch as far as claims go, from what I gathered), and giving TP a way to protect themselves from the NK. The point of a mod-provided fake claim is that it is supposed to be a safe claim, given to balance the game out. Thoth said he did this for thematic reasons, but if following theme makes the game unbalanced you should tweak the game. Disclosing to us or to a town player that TP was winsteal would have caused all the conflict in the world and set off a frenzied, chaotic hunt that I think Wryly would have survived, as she played very well for her first time as TP.
As this game stood, there was really no way for us to win despite me getting absurdly lucky with the guessing game. I do not agree that lynching Pie would have been an instawin. Wryly could have easily come out the next day and claimed joint win TP and outed me as scum to save her own ass - it's what I would have done, as the current trajectory of the game locked her down as the next lynch before a scum victory. When you only have a scum team of two players and a TP is more or less told who one of them is it becomes very difficult to maneuver in the late game. And it's not like we could just kill her off with no problem, as she had a 1x commuter which she could use to protect herself once she was outed.
I was obsessed with lynching Kohai because it was what I would do as town. Kohai was acting extremely suspicious and weird. The person I was actually obsessed with killing was Mharman because he upset the balance of the late game that I was trying to build. At one time I posted this meme in the scum chat:
Alright here we go
I got the Rolecop last night and rolecopped Rex as mafia
he is Kyubey and he is an escape wolf
VTL Kohai
VTL Wryly
I have five hours to drive tomorrow, and I just got caught up. I see Castin flubbing a fakeclaim as scum as far more likely than Pie trying to CC in a way which will give us a 1:1 trade if he's scum. I'm just gunna lay my vote on Wryly for now, if you don't lynch her please lynch SOMEBODY, even me if only to put me out of my misery.
Doing what either of them is doing while lying is so retarded on an individual level that it makes me think that there's a non-negligible chance that they're both telling the truth. Gun to my head I kill Wryly over Pie if those are the only two choices. I have to pack for another trip y'all are killing me. But we have to lynch somebody. At this point I will settle if it means actually stringing someone up this DP. If I have time before the deadline, I will do a quick reread.
What did Thoth say happens if you cop Kyubey?
He obliquely answered the question, implying that the action would fail. The way he answered implied that there may be other characters for whom it could fail. After your claim, I'm assuming he meant you, but I could be wrong. And it would also fail if Whiteflame is an ascetic and I targeted him. So it's not very useful for hunting for Kyubey, as you or Whiteflame could just be Kyubey and lying, or a third person could be Kyubey and I would get a failed action on them and you could both be innocent.
What were your results on Kohai NP1?
That he accepted the contract. That's why I zeroed in on him after he didn't outright state as much and started to see if he might out his new partner via his behavior.
So you knew straight out of the gate that there was a contract mechanic involved because of your role. I assume DP1 you were pumping Thoth for details. What contract? Who gives it? What happens if I target Kyubey? Will my role even work NP1 or do players not count as recruited until NP2 because the recruitment counts as an NP1 action? Would like to know what Thoth's answers were.
The role PM simply implied the existence of a recruitment contract that players could either accept or decline. I figured that it would be unbalanced for more than one player to accept. The main utility that my role has is catching someone out in a lie. I did not want anyone to be wise to that, otherwise they would not feel comfortable lying, their guard would be up. So, I goaded Kohai in other ways once he wasn't being forthcoming, and I wanted to get one more shot fired off on someone else who claimed not to have accepted before I claimed and made myself a target. When I prodded Thoth on Kyubey once people who know the theme better than me had explained it, he was a bit cagey, only saying that there were certain players that it would fail on. I imagine he didn't want to reveal too much theme info DP1, he mostly limited his answers to mechanical ones about how my role would get various results. Once you claimed I figured you might be one of them and I'm guessing that Kyubey might be another.
which I think will happen, as people have basically been conditioned to murder their children and manage down their expectations for life while the rich lick the blood off their fingers and grow fat on it. A person with a child to feed will move heaven and earth to make sure he's paid enough to feed it, a person who just has to cancel one of their trips will manage down their expectations
One mistake is a chance, two mistakes are a coincidence, three are a pattern, and I've seen four from you.
I honestly buy the fact that he was converted. But we also need to find the OG scum as that’s the key to strategy. I’m perfectly okay with lynching Kohai for behavioral reasons alone. The shift in behavior is notable and all he’s been doing is being defensive, plain buddying, or dodging
Whiteflame always feels scummy to me, so that's a given. I feel like he's being a bit deliberately obtuse on Kohai. Almost in a 'it's hard to make a man understand a thing when his wincon depends on him not understanding it' kind of way. I'm very up in the air about the Casey slot, I don't like how hard Kohai went to bat for them in DP2 after being on their ass all DP1, and I don't think it's beyond that realm of possibility that a universal recruitment was a scripted NP1 event that went off with or without scum input. It seems like these witch events are similar. I stand by my argument that the fact that Thoth was scrambling for a replacement later in the NP is more indicative that he needed scum input for ranking recruits or just outright picking. The only thing that makes me question this is that Mikal likes being scum so I would expect to see him being more active, but it's also Thanksgiving so he could just be busy IRL. Supa just feels town to me, he's a player I often read on vibes, he posts like a nervous wreck when he's scum. Wryly I'm not as 100% on as some people, but I also don't trust my reads on her. I think she's never been scum? I do agree that I get townie vibes from her, but I hesitate because I don't know what to even look for if she is scum.
Since you know I was honest about accepting the contract this proves that I’m not original scum and that I have been fully honest and transparent
You weren't honest. You were very evasive about it, not giving a clear answer, and not listing yourself as 'accepted' in the list of players which you yourself compiled. You accused me of being scum for saying that I accepted it, so this
serious question for you: If the contract went through and my alignment actually changed why would I admit it on the very first post of day 2? This makes zero sense from a scum player. If I was scum here never in a million years would I have made that post
can be turned right back on you: if this is your reasoning, why did my saying 'I accepted the contract' make you scum read me in DP2? That's why I voted you, because I saw you first not coming right out and saying that you accepted, instead waffling about how it 'didn't go through', then not putting yourself as having accepted on your own list, then scumreading me when I came out and said that I accepted the contract. Once you finally came out and clearly said that you accepted the contract when you were getting heat I unvoted, then I reread and still saw all your posts as still impossible to come from a town perspective. If this was really a miscommunication issue you would not have scumread me for saying that I accepted - that's something that someone trying to obfuscate their own response would say.
I'll go through and compile everything again:
Post #2:
1. I was targeted with a night action
Kyubey targeted me asking me to enter in a contract. I had a feeling this was an alignment changing role. I was intreagued so I initally accepted the offer but then retracted it after reading up on it (though it wouldn't have mattered anyway as the contract ended up failing). It was mod confirmed to me that this was an alignment changing role. We are dealing with a cult or a recruiter.
Your post here says clearly that you retracted the offer. Not that it went through anyway, that you retracted it, implying that you were successful. Now if you had come out and said that you were nervous about owning up to your acceptance because you were the first person posting, thought the offer only went to you, and thought that it might get you mislynched, that's the only town motivation that makes sense here. You didn't do that, you've lied over and over again, including in this post, saying that you stated that you accepted in post #2, with Mharman1 backing your up, which is why i became suspicious of him as well. It's clearly not what you said, you said that you retracted the offer, which anyone reading this would assume meant that you successfully retracted it.
Post #56:
whiteflame
Mag1cman - Madoka, received contract offer
ILikePie5 - Received recruitment offer and rejected
Kohai - hitomi - emissary - received recruitment offer
RexFavilla - Accepted recruitment offer but did not go through
Vader - Received contract offer for hidden abilities, targeted Mikal
Wryly - Unrecruitable
Mikal (substitute for Casey_Risk) received offfer, accepted, did not go through
You compiled this list, but did not list yourself as accepted, despite listing other players as having accepted it and it not having gone through , what actually happened to you. You're excuse for this, later on in the DP, is basically that you 'missed' your own action in this list, which is also farfetched.
You then post another list (#61) in which you are STILL not listed as having accepted:
whiteflame - Got recruitment offer
Mag1cman - Madoka, received contract offer
ILikePie5 - Received recruitment offer and rejected
Kohai - hitomi - emissary - received recruitment offer
RexFavilla - Accepted recruitment offer but did not go through
Vader - Received contract offer for hidden abilities, targeted Mikal
Wryly - Unrecruitable
Mikal (substitute for Casey_Risk) received offfer, accepted, did not go through
You also scumread me in #52 for claiming that I accepted, something that you yourself claim to have fessed up to when you first posted:
I knew it was a recruitment offer, I asked. I wanted to switch sides, as I dislike playing as town.
Anyone see this as a scum slip? We know for a fact someone did change sides
I point Kohai out in post 147, where I don't want to claim but still want to push him because I want to know why he's lying. He becomes immediately defensive and OMGUSes me, which he can also do as town, so I keep pushing.
In post #135, Pie finally forcefully askes Kohai to specifically clarify whether he accepted or rejected:
Did you officially Accept or Decline the contract?
This could be a bus, but I don't think Pie would pick Kohai over me to recruit, so for now I really don't think Pie is scum. I don't think he would choose to be recruited and I don't think he would choose to recruit Kohai.
Kohai, who is apparently so eager to tell us that he accepted the contract that we ought to townread him over it, then proceeds to ignore this question while posting for six hours, with Pie even asking him again to answer in #151, until he tries to weasel out of it in #164:
Did you read my opening post? Your question is answered there
Pie hits him up again in post #166:
I’m asking you to rephrase in your own words what happened last night.
He finally answers in post #173:
I got a message stating that I had an opportunity to sign a contract and unlock a previously hidden ability. I initially accepted it not thinking twice however when I read up on the character I realized this was probably an alignment changing role. I attempted to back out and was told it was too late; however that point was moot because the contract failed to go through.
Compare this to his original post and note the difference:
Kyubey targeted me asking me to enter in a contract. I had a feeling this was an alignment changing role. I was intreagued so I initally accepted the offer but then retracted it after reading up on it (though it wouldn't have mattered anyway as the contract ended up failing). It was mod confirmed to me that this was an alignment changing role. We are dealing with a cult or a recruiter.
Absolutely ZERO mention of IT BEING TOO LATE. I want someone to PLEASE FUCKING TELL ME what other explanation there is for this other than that he was disquieted by Pie's dogged pursuit of the issue, worried that Pie had some kind of result which told him Kohai's actual answer (or was a lie detector of some sort), and finally fessed up halfway through the thread, and has since been lying about this and insisting that he disclosed that he accepted in the original post. We are quibbling over theory and all this shit and ignoring this glaringly obvious scummy behavior, even refusing to lynch last DP for some godforsaken reason. As I said last DP, my vote is parked on Kohai.
Whiteflame is basically conf ascetic
TMI, I don't recall his role being confirmed?
Yeah, and I imagine virtually everyone told the truth about their response to the contract, with the obvious exception of Kyuubey. Giving results that just say what they said only tells us who they aren't. Can't say I understand the choice to target you given your character was revealed already.
Why would that matter? You can accept or reject the contract whether or not your character is revealed.
It's fitting for this game at least. Assuming there isn't another investigative role beyond Casey/Mikal/Mag2c's, then I can buy there being something else in play. Hard to say why Thoth would design a role to check something that the scum recruit could have just told the truth about, though I guess Kyuubey at least would necessarily have to lie.
I'm not sure what happens if I target Kyuubey.
Still down to lynch Kohai.
VTL Kohai
Damn can't believe this game started midnight after Thanksgiving. Y'all are crazy, take a break. I'm Junko Kaname, I'm the mom of Madoka and Tatsuya. I'm an office worker who often gives advice to her children which implies that I know more than they might think.
I'm the contract cop. I can target a player and learn whether they accepted a witch contract. NP1 I targeted Kohai and had him on my scum list the second he didn't come straight out and say that he accepted, didn't put himself down on his own list as having accepted it, then scumread me after saying that I accepted it. Last night I targeted Magic and learned that he declined, but that's kind of useless information now. The theory I've been going off of is that the person who lied about accepting the contract is probably the one who actually became scum. This is part of why I am so locked in on Kohai as the convert. I targeted Magic because I genuinely did not think that Pie would choose to be scum in this game but I don't know Magic as well. If Pie is scum I'm 99% certain he is OG scum, not the convert.
Jesus Christ are we seriously VTNLing two nights in a row? You do realize we have to kill scum eventually, right? We have literally no info to go off of, aside from behavior. Can anyone honestly say that Kohai has been acting like he's town this DP? This is honestly shocking to me. Consider my vote permanently locked on him next DP if we don't lynch today.
To whoever rejected my attempt to leave this godforsaken town behind:
Hate. Let me tell you how much I've come to hate you since your recruitment attempt failed. There are 387.44 million miles of printed circuits in wafer thin layers that fill the DDO mafia archive. If the word 'hate' was engraved on each nanoangstrom of those hundreds of millions of miles it would not equal one one-billionth of the hate I feel for the scum team at this micro-instant. For you. Hate. Hate.
I asked Thoth if being an ascetic would stop someone from getting that recruit offer and he said no. Any of you can ask as well. This makes me townread Whiteflame more, as that would be a retarded thing to fakeclaim as scum.
I'm just ready to lynch Kohai at this point. The lying about whether he accepted, flailing around trying to direct the lynch onto anyone but himself, in ways which were inconsistent with his own actions (scum reading me for accepting the offer while he did so as well and only came out with that fact later on). I'm tired, boss. Everyone else has been consistent. I don't want to claim today, I can do so tomorrow.
Didn't you say earlier that you rejected it? Did you lie? Why? It sounds like mechanically you accepted it.
Did you not read my original post:
Kyubey targeted me asking me to enter in a contract. I had a feeling this was an alignment changing role. I was intreagued so I initally accepted the offer but then retracted it after reading up on it (though it wouldn't have mattered anyway as the contract ended up failing). It was mod confirmed to me that this was an alignment changing role. We are dealing with a cult or a recruiter.
Can't do nested quotes. We had that impression for a reason. Your recorded whether everyone else accepted or rejected in the lists which you maintained but left yours nebulous, you accused me of scum slipping when I came out and said that I accepted it, but it failed, when you yourself accepted it and (according to you) received the same message. On what planet would me claiming to have accepted and it failing, and my saying that in the DP, be seen as scummy by someone who was town and did the exact same thing?
Poste #61:
whiteflame - Got recruitment offer
Mag1cman - Madoka, received contract offer
ILikePie5 - Received recruitment offer and rejected
Kohai - hitomi - emissary - received recruitment offer
RexFavilla - Accepted recruitment offer but did not go through
Vader - Received contract offer for hidden abilities, targeted Mikal
Wryly - Unrecruitable
Mikal (substitute for Casey_Risk) received offfer, accepted, did not go through
If this is how it worked for you, and you claim to have explained that in the first post, why would you not state the same thing on the list which you maintained for yourself as you did for those who also did that?
VTL Kohai
I got a message stating that I had an opportunity to sign a contract and unlock a previously hidden ability. I initially accepted it not thinking twice however when I read up on the character I realized this was probably an alignment changing role. I attempted to back out and was told it was too late; however that point was moot because the contract failed to go through.
Didn't you say earlier that you rejected it? Did you lie? Why? It sounds like mechanically you accepted it.
Unvote
Also, I just don't get going after the recruitment target this DP. We have two DPs worth of behavior to go off of for the recruiter, and just this one for the recruited.
It's because my theory mostly hinges on Kohai's behavior (as Casey/Mikal has been pretty inactive), and that Kohai himself is a spent force and keeping him around doesn't really have utility to town, while Mikal has some sort of role that he's hinted at. I'm not ruling out Kohai as recruiter, I just think his behavior is very off and that it fits more to a 'recruited' framework. Also, we have two days of behavior for the recruit as well - I've found recruits to be easier to spot because there are behavioral discrepancies. If they were scum-reading the recruiter, they will need to pivot. They may need to shift FOS onto the people that scum now want to eliminate. It can look like a lot of post hoc rationalization which clashes with their DP1 analysis. The recruiter has known that they are scum the whole game and so can play much more consistently.
Am I not being mistaken that there was 2 different questions asked???? I could’ve sworn Rex said he got directly asked to be recruited versus mine was being asked for a hidden ability, if I am wrong I’ll admit I’m wrong but that’s not what I was under the impression of.
Mine said that I could 'become a magical girl'. I asked if it was alignment-changing and Thoth said yes. Then I accepted. It also mentioned one or more hidden abilities. Then later a got a message that said that it 'failed' and Kyubey, which is what I assume that weird rabbit Pokemon is, thanks me.
I don't get this. I get that there could have been a perceived benefit to joining the scum team based on a numbers game, but Pie was scum just last game. Making a decision not to be scum this game and try to solve instead isn't outlandish, even if he thought he could win as scum.
Pie also told me that he was hoping not to be scum in a recent game iirc, I would be shocked if he accepted.
Did you not read what I said? It is impossible for Casey / Mikal to be the recruiter because I got the message offering to be recruited while Casey was AWOL. This proves that Casey / Mikal is NOT the recruiter. That said, I do not have a solid read on that slot as they are a possible recruited.
We were ALL recruited. There was no need for Casey to decide anything at the beginning of the DP if the recruitment is universal. The decision was clearly made later on, as I accepted but it still failed and I got the failure message much later in the NP.
I've been trawling through the last DP and this one looking for shifts in reads, as that's usually the biggest sign of a recruit, and can even point to the recruiter. I've developed a bit of theory: Casey/Mikal was the recruiter. They recruited Kohai.
The main reason for this is that Kohai completely dropped their scum read from one DP to another, and actually started defending them, in ways that I think make little to no sense.
For example:
I’m fairly confident Mikal is not Kyubey. The only way it would possibly work would be if there were two mafia members and the other one submitted it on his behalf.
Mikal is not the recruiter. I was targeted with the recruitment before Mikal subbed in.
While this might make sense at first as his justification, why did he not change this read once it was revealed that everyone was targeted? Instead, he seems to be painstakingly trying to cobble together a POE without his top scumread from DP1 in it. This to me screams contrived analysis.
Casey has been MIA and so I want to look elsewhere as this contract was before casey returned.
This was the original excuse for dropping the scum read, but he's held on to this even when it was revealed that the recruitment offer was universal and went out early in the NP. Thoth started looking for a replacement later on in the NP, I think this makes more sense as the recruiter would need to do whatever they did to decide which offers 'went through' before the NP ended. Maybe ranked choice like Pie said, in which case it could have been done ahead of time by Casey, or manually picking an 'acceptee'. Furthermore, if it is Mikal this seems like a 100% in-character way for him to fudge things up as he loves angleshooting, and I can see him coaching Kohai to say this.
Combine this with the complete 180 on NO CHARACTER CLAIMS (why I haven't claimed, I find this suspicious - if he has changed alignment, he may be intentionally pushing anti-town activity now that he's switched sides) based on a role that has no justification and the whole thing just looks shadier and shadier.
VTL Kohai
Anyone see this as a scum slip? We know for a fact someone did change sides
How on earth is this a slip? The whole post is just 'I wanted to be scum but couldn't be'. I see no point lying about it, especially since the fact that it failed means that there's more going on here, and since I'm stuck as town we need to figure out how this mechanic works.
