You said the idea of Christianity didn’t even exist while Jesus was supposed to have been walking the earth.

That's correct, I did in both senses. Jesus was a full blown Jew and only ever quoted the Hebrew god and the Hebrew book/s that'll be the first 5 books of the BIBLE known to us as the Pentateuch (2) CE is an abbreviation for Common Era. It means the same as AD (Anno Domini) Jesus did not preach "Christianity". Jesus would have been appalled that you were and and till are, calling him "God" ! Further he woul have also been appalled that a whole new religion had sprung up in his name.

reply: Christianity started in the first century CE in the Roman province of Judea emerging from the Second Temple Judaism following the life, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus was the central figure in Christianity.

That's Correct FOLLOWING and not while he was alive. So the rest of the Jesus story was all made up well after his supposed "resurrection"

God’s promise to Mary was fulfilled.

Nope. In no way was a single one of those predictions made to Mary "blessed among all women" fulfilled.

Today Jesus is worshipped as a God by over 2 billion Christians.

And appealing to numbers doesn't mean a damn thing. As of 2020-2025, there are approximately 2 billion Muslims worldwide does this then mean that Allah is the one true god and does it also mean the Mohammad was a prophet sent and spoken to by god keeping in mind that Muslims do not believe Jesus is a god ?

The Holy Spirit remedies the fallen nature of humanity by empowering, guiding , sanctifying and comforting believers, making them more like Jesus Christ. It also remedies the spiritual weakness, separation from God, and corruption caused by sin.

Which has nothing to do with the BIBLE subject we are discussing here..

I asked you. I asked you which parts of the bible were "remedied" by the ghost? 4TIMES NOW!!! and you have failed to answer.

You just cannot keep up with your ow BS can, you?

This is what you wrote above:

Debby wrote: #46 above "The Bible is infallible because it is God’s inspired WORD. The errors we see in the Bible are human errors and translation errors which the HolyGhost was sent to remedy."

So AGAIN! which "human errors" and "translation errors" did the ghost remedy and correct?

You ignore that I have at hand, a means to overcome the problems of translation of biblical text. I can go to the source of that inspiration to be helped to un derstrand what is trying to be said. It's called revelation, my friend, and it is real and useful today.

Well for all you crowing about YOUR means of translation of BIBLICAL text is unknown to me as are your "sources of inspiration".

Regardless, by your own admission the bible is not "flawless" and it is "imperfect".

So therefore you have rendered all bibles written in the English language pointless and redundant.

which the HolyGhost was sent to remedy.

Which parts did the ghost remedy. And what is your biblical evidence that it was the purpose that a ghost was sent.

The advocate ,the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name will teach you everything .

I asked you which parts of the bible were "remedied" by the ghost?

So you don't know then. So this is just another load of old cobblers made up in the attempt to escape the corner that you have once again painted yourself into.

Christianity started in the first century CE in the Roman province of judea, emerging from Second Temple Judaism following the life, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. His followers initially a small Jewish sect, began spreading his teachings , leading to the gradual separation of Christianity from Judaism as more Gentiles joined the movement in the 2nd century.

So nothing was there in the first instance to "restore" was there?

and once again you have dodged my questions

Jesus was crucified by the Romans before he could complete his mission. The Romans realized their mistake and restored Christianity by establishing the Roman Catholic Church to continue with Jesus’s mission and to await his return.

"Restored"!!!??

The idea of Christianity didn't even exist while Jesus was supposed to have been walking the earth. Stop making shite up!!!

Sound to me like the failed mission of a very much human being and not an almighty all singing all dancing god!

How did this all singing all dancing god allow himself to even be taken prisoner in the first place before the mission was completed!?

And there are many, many, many, verses in the BIBLE that tell us that god always keeps his promises. But none of the promises that he - GOD - made to Mary "blessed among all women" came to fruition did they? What kind of god fails to hold up his promises? Or are all those BIBLICAL promises said to have been made by god all the maitakes and mistranslations of fallible man?

The Bible is infallible because it is God’s inspired WORD. The errors we see in the Bible are human errors and translation errors

So it is- as they say- not worth the paper it is written on.

which the HolyGhost was sent to remedy.

Which parts did the ghost remedy. And what is your biblical evidence that it was the purpose that a ghost was sent.

 Its entry is by reading the words, but who wrote the words[ of the bible]? Men and women did; all of it, cover to cover. Anything man does is imperfect until he, himself, becomes perfect in all respects. We're not there, yet.

So we have a imperfect book full of words.

So, anything we do, ever have done, or ever will do until the day of perfection is blessed upon us, is flawed to some degree.

Imperfect and flawed.

Just one of the problems: The Bible, as we know it today, has been subject to translation from "original" languages [Hebrew and Greek] for 1600 years, at least.

With much lost and gained in translation?

Another problem: "the Bible" did not exist in antiquity, The "books" were separate documents, not a cohesive collection. A work that may still, 1600 years later, be in progress.

So, where do we get off claiming the Bible's "infallibility?"

Indeed , Where? especially when , by your own admission it is imperfect and flawed. But this hasn't stopped the likes of you preaching from your "imperfect and flawed" book that has been submitted to various translation and misinterpretations over the millennia

Jesus is God and worshipped as a God by 2 billion Christian’s.

Your appealing to numbers proves nothing al all,

The Jews denied Jesus as the promised Messiah

That may well be because he didn't fulfil a single requirement of what was expected of a messiah . And, incidentally, Jesus didn't fulfil any of the promises made by god either.

 Learn from their history.

You aught to learn your bible.

Logos) is a core concept in Christian theology, primarily rooted in the writings of the Apostle John. The evidence shows that "the Word" is used to describe Jesus's pre-existent divinity, his role in creation, and his incarnation as a human. Here is the evidence proving that "the Word" is another name for Jesus:

This is utter nonsense. Your insistence that Jesus is also the Hebrew god Yahweh is risible. This is just stuff made up by Christians in the belief that it some how proves that Jesus was also the god of the Hebrews from the beginning.

"The Word" means nothing more than, and refers only to, Gods word, or the words of god. Lets see if I can make it perfectly clear to you as even a child would understand.

How does a Barrister or Lawyer represent The "Law"? After all, the law is nothing more than a big inanimate book of words, isn't it? Those words don't just jump from the law book and magically become verbal all on their own, do they?. NO! not until that is, a fleshy human that has been approved and accredited by his peers stands there as a REPRESENTATIVE of the LAW and interprets what these WORDS mean!

As the bible clear states Jesus was only a REPRESENTATIVE of the WORD/S of god, in other words FLESH was put onto the words.

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God Act 2:22

An architects drawing is simply lines on paper until a human brings those lines to life in the form of a construction.

Suck it up. Your boy was no god, period!

Hebrews 1:8-10: "But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever...'" (This directly quotes Psalm 45:6-7, applying it to Jesus).

This goes nowhere in proving that Jesus is also the Hebrew god Yahweh.

Titus 2:13: Refers to "our great God and our Savior, Jesus Christ".

You can't read can you? This verse speaks of two persons god AND Jesus : SEE>> "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" Titus2:13 kjv

1. John 1:1: States the Word (Jesus) "was with God, and the Word was God". 

Prove to me, with evidence, that the word - "WORD" is another name for Jesus . You can't . the CHRISTIAN belief that the "word" is somehow a reference to Jesus the man of the NT is wishful thinking if not utter desperation.

Christian theology teaches Jesus had to be fully human and fully divine (God), the "God-man,

Bollocks! Nowhere does anyone including Jesus call himself or ever refers to himself as a "god-man" regardless of what "Christian theology teaches".

Off you go now.

Ultimately, the goal of his message was to unite humanity with God

You really are shite at reading your bible. I won't even bother to explain why.

Your verse citations [Luke14:26 kjv &Luke:12:51-53] of apparent hate brought by Christ are examples of why I [and many others, including in religious scholarship]

Well they are hardly words of love, peace and tolerance now, are they? The only "love" mentioned in those verses that intend to create division is Jesus ordering everyone to love him or else.

maintain the Bible, while honored as the word of God, was likely inspired perfectly, but not interpreted by man perfectly [since God did not actually write a single syllable ,[.......]

I think it is obvious to anyone that the bible isn't "perfect". It is a contradictory, ambiguous classical mess from full of half stories

with the exception, perhaps of the plates allegedly containing the Ten Commandments. I say "alleged" because we s9mply do not have those artifacts today.

No we don't. But to be clear, after it is said that Moses destroyed the first set he went back up the mountain where "the lord" said he would write another copy:  “Cut two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke".Ex34kjv.

But that wasn't the case, was it? Because we also know from the same story, same chapter that it was actually Moses himself that rewrote the covenant of the 10 commands:

"And he[Moses] was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.Ex34:28kjv.

The claim that direct revelation from God discontinued after the first century C.E. is simply nonsense. Why would God remove himself from our honest pursuit of truth?

Good question. Why indeed? But we do have this as maybe a clue to the answer, don't we:

 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Gen6:3kjv

and why was it that god withdrew "his spirit"?

It could we be that it has something to do with god having a problem with his own son's and couldn't control them? And I notice here that once again that mankind carried the blame for this "sins" of his own offspring. Lets see:

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.Gen6:1-2kjv

the Bible is therefore NOT infallible due to errant translation, even by original authors.

So who's translation/s are to take as the correct translation, Yours?

"love" in English, is 7 different words in Greek.

Sexual love = Eros

Parental love = Storge

Unconditional/sacrificial ( =Agape

Loyalty affection= Philia

I only recall 4 what are the other three?

And while we are on the subject: this verse below appears to blows any concept of any type of love for anyone or anything clean out of the water, don't you think?

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple". Luke14:26 kjv

I suppose we could add this too:

Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luke:12:51-53

Yes . I read all the love peace and harmony in both those BIBLICAL verses, don't you?

Jesus didn't say "I am God" in those exact words 

Jesus didn't say it in any words...... until Christians attempted to put words in his mouth.

According to Christian theology, Jesus was fully human[.................]

Yes we know, because the BIBLE makes that more than clear and that is where you should have stopped. Even one of those theologian scholars you like to mention and look up to has had to say:

"During his lifetime Jesus himself didn't call himself god and didn't consider himself to be god. And none of his disciples had even an inkling at all that he was god". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C96FPHRTuQU

Ergo only human not god become flesh.

Debby wrote: to fulfill His mission and experience human life,

Stephen wrote: Why did he- god - have to experience human life?

Debby wrote: According to Christian theology, God (as Jesus) experienced human life.To Save Humanity: Sin separated people from God, and only a perfect, God-man could bridge this divide, offering forgiveness and reconciliation through his sacrificial death.

Indeed it is only Christian theology, an idea and nothing more.. And proves nothing , In fact, it shows Jesus to be ONLY a man. A mediator as all human Priests are.

To Be Our Mediator: Jesus needed a human nature to represent humanity before God, acting as the one mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5).

CORRECT, a "mediator" only. As Timothy states clearly :1 Timothy 2:5KJV

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

To Suffer and Sympathize: His human experience allowed him to be tempted and suffer, making him a merciful High Priest who could sympathize with human weakness (Hebrews 2:17).

So now your claim is that God had to take on human form to understand the suffering of men and why the can be tempted?

FFS! we are talking GOD! our creator here!. Are you saying the God that created us didn't understand his own creation? That couldn't understand our suffering, unless he became human?

I really do wish you would read your bible for yourself "Debby".You keep coming across as a clown and a bible dunce. Read these simple verses :

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Heb 4. 15-16kjv

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Rev, 2-9 kjv

So you see, god understood his human creation perfectly. He knew our suffering and why we are sometimes tempted. He did after all, create Satan, the great tempter and corrupter of humanity too.

To Fulfill Righteousness: Jesus had to live a perfect human life, obeying God where Adam failed, to fulfill God's justice and earn righteousness for others.

Again you are making yourself out to be a complete and utter bible dunce. And here's why:

And he[Jesus] said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Mat 9-17 kjv

So here Jesus denies being even good and he certainly doesn't say that he is "perfect", does he?

In essence, God didn't experience human life out of necessity for Himself,

Stop it!! the god of the OT speaks about nothing but himself Me, me me, I, I, I. fk me haven't you read the commandments? They are nearly all about or to do with himself!

I give up on you "Debby". And I don't know why you bother yourself?

And if you want to discuss gods "Love " start a thread. I'll show god version of love. And I'll start with this. God of the OT only mentions the word love himself just once. And that is only in relation to someone else loving someone else.

Me and Debby have shown you explicit verses and context that support Jesus as God.

And I have shown you BIBLICAL verses that counters your argument.

It's irrational to say it's not open to interpretation

I don't believe I have even suggested that. But the Christian will always attempt to "interpret" in their favour . And who can blame them, considering that the bible, New Testament in particular is compiled of ambiguous half stories that certainly contradict themselves, which allows them to interpret as they feel fit.? But this doesn't mean that you and Christians have literary licence re rewrite and interpret scripture to fit your religious agenda or beliefs.

You keep ignoring the verses we gave you 

Nope. but you certainly dismiss the verses that I offer contrary to your claim with an arrogant wave of the hand. I read them as I see them and they, in my opinion, do not support the Christian claim that Jesus is also god. And what you ignore is that for every verse you offer to support your claim , that there is a verse that denies/counters your claim.....IN THE BIBLE!

And at the very least the Bible makes clear that Jesus is the son of God and that's significant.

And I haven't ever said any different! I have said numerous times that Jesus was the son of god but only in the respect that to be called "Son of God" is nothing more than a title and that there other sons of god in the bible, Solomon and David for instance. And wasn't the whole nation of Israel called "sons god" in the bible? . . I would also agree that Jesus believed, or was led to believe that he was a king of the Jews, but non of this goes anywhere in proving Jesus was also Yahweh the Hebrew god as you keep insisting. You have shown neither evidence nor proof.

Me and Debby

Above you have mentioned Debby

Well Debby once offered as support for her claim/s a scholar by the name of Professor Bart Denton Ehrman. As usual she hadn't done her homework. But this is what he had to say on the matter.

"During his lifetime Jesus himself didn't call himself god and didn't consider himself to be god. And none of his disciples had even an inkling at all that he was god".

All very odd don't you think that the gospels forgot to mention something as important as Jesus also being a god?

I suppose "Debby" will think twice now before she invokes the name of her hero and saviour Bart Ehrman

linate wrtote: Your other thread is about why he became human, dont get the thread purposes twisted

Nope. This thread is concerned with Jesus not being god.

Post #22 on this thread Why DO Christians believe god became flesh https://www.debatecraft.com/forum/c/religion/posts/jt/why-do-christians-believe-god-became-flesh?page=1&comment_number=24

is where it was you that started crossing threads. and and making comments that caused me to go back to correct you.

regardless: lets park that for now.

lets stick with Jesus is not god.

You cannot, and haven't d show anywhere that Jesus is also god. have you?

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:1,14).

Stephen wrote: Are you claiming that this verse is suggesting that John is referring to Jesus?

linate wrote: not obvious that john was referring to jesus? What could John be referring to otherwise?

But I believe that I have categorically shown that Jesus cannot also be god using the bible. I repeat these are NOT my interpretations but the word of god as believed to have been spoken by god in the BIBLE. and I shall give you a few more reasons a few more reasons why Jesus is NOT god.

Numbers 23:19

King James Version

19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Hosea 11:9

King James Version

9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

JESUS SAID: from the same gospel that YOU chose your 1:1,14 verse from

John 8:40 KJ V

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

John 14:28 KJV Father is greater than I.

Then in;

Acts 2:22KJV

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God :

1 Timothy 2:5KJV

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Luke 18:19 KJV

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

We haven't even got to where Jesus himself in many bible verses calls himself only the "Son of man".

Can you now show those of us reading here how these verses from the bible prove that Jesus is also god?

Jesus had to become flesh (human) to fully represent humanity, suffer and die as the perfect sacrifice for sins (since God can't die), fulfill God's law, offer empathy, and serve as the human mediator to reconcile people to God, defeating sin and Satan by experiencing human life, temptation, and death to bring redemption and reveal God's love. 

The only part of that above that agrees with what the bible actually says is that Jesus was nothing more than a human "mediator".

Debby wrote: to fulfill His mission and experience human life,

Why did he- god - have to experience human life?

Debby wrote:to fulfill His mission and experience human life,

Why?

You can keep posting your cut-N pastes.

But you keep failing to answer my one simple question.

Why did god have to be come flesh?

Whats your response to this?

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:1,14).

Are you claiming that this verse is suggesting that John is referring to Jesus?

Jesus in the gospels also says "i am the father are one". and 'one' in that context didn't mean the same person but the same essence. and i think it was at that point that the jews tried to stone him for blasphemy.

This does not prove that Jesus is god. And what he actually says is: I and my Father are one. John 10: 29 where also in that chapter he states: the works that I do in my Father's name

Is all this shows is that Jesus the man (see#13above) and god are in agreement, I am "one" with my friends because we agree on many things.

And you the evidence that supports my claim above has gone unchallenged by you and others here; so I shall repeat them.

Deuteronomy 6:4 The Lord our God is one Lord.

Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no saviour."

Joel 2:27 "You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am Yahweh your God and there is none else."

Mark 12:28-34 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

And from the mouth of Jesus himself.....!

Luke 18:19. WHY DO YOU CALL ME GOOD? JESUS ANSWERED. NO ONE IS GOOD- EXCEPT GOD ALONE"  

And here's a few more that support my claim . these are not my "interpretations " they are quotes from the BIBLE!

1 Corinthians 8:6 " yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ.

John 14:28 “ I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I"

1 Timothy 2:5  For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.

Debby wrote:to fulfill His mission and experience human life,

Stephen wrote:Ok, Why did he have to experience human life?

Debby wrote: Jesus had to experience human life 

to fully represent, redeem, and sympathize with humanity, [.......]

OK , just so I am clear on this. Are you saying that "god had to come as a man (Jesus) to experience what it was like to have human experiences and emotions?

Jesus had so little time left on earth, he could not devote all his energy saving the poor. He had to spread his love around.

Oh stop it ffs!

We are suppose to be talking about a man that was also a god aren't we? A miracle worker no less!!

And you still haven't managed to tell us why God had to become flesh nor why Christians believe that he did?

Jesus had already identified Satan at work in Judas at the last supper in from of the disciples.

And the question is and has been throughout this thread, is: But why hadn't a single disciple recognised Satan ?

And you have dodged yet another question above,#43 why?

Which of the gospel writers is telling the gospel truth. Is it Matthew? or is it John? Because it can't be both, can it?

Look in that thread you made about whether jesus is god. I gave plenty of explicit support. You can interpret another way or say they are contradictions but dont pretend theres no biblical or historical support for the idea. It just makes you look narrow minded

Nope. And I think you have the wrong title. I have said Jesus IS NOT god, period! not where he is or not. And I countered all your claims with BIBLICAL verses that are not MY interpretations but the bibles! What you have done on that thread is offer nothing more than verses that only suggest that Jesus may be god. Where as I have shown you verses that categorically state there is no god but GOD!.

SO, not wanting to cross thread here I suggest that you go back and support you very flawed clams I will be more than pleased to engage you.

Here you are>>>https://www.debatecraft.com/forum/c/religion/posts/iw/jesus-is-not-god

Hope to see you soon.

Off you go now.

Magic is real

If magic is real, there are magical people (people who use high levels of magic)

If there are magical people, they can control the governments

If magical people can control the governments, they most likely do

Its all to do with Words. The written word to be precise. That is why it is called SPELL -ing. Which to the ancient illiterate was something "magical" , for obvious reasons.

And not to be confused with people that perform physical illusions.