The strangest thing about these sorts of episodes is when people are said to have woken up speaking in another accent or an entirely different language. I'd love to know how that works?
The strangest thing about these sorts of episodes is when people are said to have woken up speaking in another accent or an entirely different language. I'd love to know how that works?
How much of Isaiah prophecies do you know? What precise names did it say the Messiah would have?
Irrelavent. There were many "Messiahs" before and after Jesus and all failed in their mission as did Jesus. A god, a Messiah does not make.
Incidentally. At the same time Jesus was said to have been going around performing his "wonders" there was another performing exactly the same "wonders".
If you wanted to take the approach only his followers thought of him as god that's possible, but the contradiction thing is an issue, but at least by the weight of the evidence you have a strong argument.
His followers
Well, with what you state in mind and as I have already mentioned above #5, I can agree with the close disciple of Jesus Simon Pete the so called "rock" of Jesus when had this to say:
“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”. Mat 6:16 KJV.
Then - for what its worth - we have Longinus at the foot of the cross after letting Jesus have his spear between the ribs claiming:
"This Man, was truly the Son of God", in both Mathew and Mark. And Luke implies the same.
As mentioned - Son of God - is nothing more than a title given to other kings in ancient times. Indeed I believe that at one point the whole nation of Israel were called son's of god. - and by god himself !
Did you read #5 above, deb?
The Mystery of the Trinity. The Trinity is one of the deepest mysteries in all of Christian faith.
And very unbiblical.
Which is nothing more than a philosophical idea among much other Niceane dogma. And in my opinion it was a poor idea in response to awkward question such as those posed by myself above.
Deuteronomy 6:4 The Lord our God is one Lord.
Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no saviour."
Joel 2:27 "You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am Yahweh your God and there is none else."
Mark 12:28-34 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
And from the mouth of Jesus himself.....!
Luke 18:19. WHY DO YOU CALL ME GOOD? JESUS ANSWERED. NO ONE IS GOOD- EXCEPT GOD ALONE"
Who is Jesus pleading to while suffering in agony on the cross?
Who is Jesus begging while "sweating blood" through sheer fear of what was to come when asking "his father" to take away his burden?
I could offer many more verses from the bible. But I am more than sure that they would be ignored or even dismissed as being "taken out of context" as is the usual go-to excuse when all else fails. I'll grant you: Jesus was a son of god, simply because - son of god - is nothing more than a title given to some kings of the time. And I will even agree that Jesus was a king . But he wasn't a god.
But this thread is not about the imagined nor invention of the Christian trinity.
The Bible doesn't explicitly say Jesus forgave Judas, but most interpretations suggest Judas wasn't forgiven because he didn't genuinely repent and seek forgiveness, instead succumbing to remorse and taking his own life [.....]
Why hadn't a single one of those present recognized a demon when they seen one and cast him out? Nearly over 70 of his disciples had only recently been bragging about how they had cast out demons after being endowed with superpowers?.
Now the seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name!” Luke 10:17kjv
There are few passages from John gospel that only suggest that Jesus is god.
The other gospel refer to him as being only a "son of god" which is nothing more than a title of those ancient times, and today as a matter of fact. Indeed, the whole nation of Israel were said by god to be his own and special children. Also Jesus is clearly called the "son of man". So who is making Jesus out to be a god?
Why are the other gospels silent on the matter of Jesus being a god? Apart from the so called "resurrection", doesn't Christianity rest on this ambiguous claim.
You have replied to me alone but half of your post quoted another user.
Which particular user are you referring to?
SatanLucy it seems or yourself.
I responded to SatanLucy at 13 highlighted above.
Idk why you're arguing against yourself.
Not at all.
I created a thread to discuss what I consider to be a seemingly biblical contradiction and it now seems it has turned out to be a biblical dilemma.
Maybe I should try something a little more easier with my next thread.
GreatfulGoy wrote: God is not bound by any rule he sets for humans......it does not mean he has to do either.
Stephen wrote :Is god not ruled by his own character?
GreatfulGoy wrote:Not exactly.
But doesn't the bible state that gods word is: "immutable"?
GreatfulGoy wrote:So, to clarify, with regards to love, it would not seem that Father is bound by unconditional love for all nor intantaneous forgiveness,
So then god is bound by his word then. I asked you if he was ruled by his own character or not and you danced around and came up with the "trinity" argument. Which is nothing more than a philosophical idea among much other Niceane dogma. And in my opinion it was a poor idea in response to awkward question such as those posed by myself above. In English that would be to say the trinity is most definitely UN-biblical, unless you can show us otherwise.
Regardless: so has Jesus forgiven Judas or Satan come to that, considering that everything is planned and is Gods will to begin with?
You have replied to me alone but half of your post quoted another user.
Which particular user are you referring to?
Bible is polytheist in many ways.
Well, as shown above there are many example of there being more than one god in the \bible..
the trinity
Not a single person I know has ever been able to explain coherently the "trinity" without tying themselves in knots. It was a Christin invention.
and God talking of himself in plural in Old testament. "And God said, Let us make man in our image
lol, that implies Schizophrenia 😂.
No, all kidding aside. if we are to treat these ancient stories with any credibility, then we have to say that there were most certainly gods plural
i.e. a pantheon from the beginning.. ..... just like the BIBLE itself clearly states.
Jesus literally taught "do not resist the evildoer", "who lives by the sword dies by the sword", "God is good to both good and evil", "love those who persecute you"...
But no mention of loving and forgiving Judas... or Satan come to that. Which is the point of this thread.
God is not bound by any rule he sets for humans......it does not mean he has to do either.
Is god not ruled by his own character?
If he tells us to love and forgive constantly,
Which is the point I am making in the OP. As in, there was no love nor forgiveness for Judas and Satan. Unless you know different?
We are servants, slaves even. He is the King.
Slaves is about right,
Jesus literally taught "do not resist the evildoer", "who lives by the sword dies by the sword",
Indeed . but didn't he also say: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.?
Matthew 10:34-36KJV
Well so far is all you have done is make unsupported statements. Why are you not willing to answer any questions, ?
Is all I understand from the Sumerian text is that Anu was a "god of Gods" in the Sumerian pantheon of gods.
Sumerian religion is a bit similar to God of old testament.
It is to begin with. But the chances are that the god that told Abram/ Abraham to leave more than likely had Sumerian designation / name and not a Hebrew name. T
Regardless; According to the Sumerian text, each god took it in turn to rule over the others in the pantheon to became god of gods ( A Great God.) And the changer over ( the relinquishing of power) only happened at the end of every age. And on most occasions the transition didn't go smoothly.
Psalm 95:3
For the Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods.
Psalm 135:5
For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.
Anu has burn offerings too, just like God of Old testament.
Yes.
Something I have come to realise about the Christian doctrine is that they cannot get over the BIBLICAL fact that even their own book speaks of other gods. Their reply to this is usually along the lines of: but they weren't real gods" or "they were gods of pagans ". But we have god himself talking with other gods.
Psalm 82
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.....
And here The Great God commands: Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people [ the King].EX 22:28 KJB
So there you have it god of Gods telling the masses to respect and not "revile nor Curse" other gods.
The list of references to other gods are plenty.
So Anu and God of Old testament at start could actually be same starting God which just later split into two.
Is all I understand from the Sumerian text is that Anu was a "god of Gods" in the Sumerian pantheon of gods.
Abram / Abraham came from Ur in the Mesopotamian region (Iraq) and was told by A GOD to leave that land and go to Canaan: Gen12.1
Which god told him to leave ? : Well you have a pantheon of Sumerian gods to choose from, take your pick, but the OT suggests it was Yahweh.
You are learning Christianity from Christians, which is why you come up with these misleading statements.
You couldn't be more wrong.
Can you point for me my "misleading statements" statement/s and why they may be wrong?
Christianity doesnt exist, and Jesus even asked for forgiveness for people who crucified him.
Christianity does exist but it probably shouldn't.
"Christians" dont understand the Bible, especially the Gospels,
I can agree that many don't.
where they seem to fail to hear any of Jesus's words.
I can agree with that too, to an extent.
Jesus literally taught "do not resist the evildoer", "who lives by the sword dies by the sword", "God is good to both good and evil", "love those who persecute you"...
But no mention of loving and forgiving Judas... or Satan come to that. Which is the point of this thread
these are the teachings these "Christians" cannot understand, because Christianity is invented religion which has made its followers blind to the very thing they claim to follow.
Well again, I can agree with you. But, like many of his disciples And the Chief Priests of the age, I'm not sure that you understand the teaching of Jesus either. Still that can wait for another day.
I have to worship Sky God Anu.
Sumerian God . Head of the pantheon and probably the god of Abram / Abraham. And he did live in the sky.😉
The Book of Revelation is difficult to understand
Not really.
Take away the images of "horsemen" and other guff and it simply speaks of a world in chaos in an age chaos. Which , dare I say it, we seem to be going through in our time.
At Matthew 24:3-14 Jesus makes it quit clear when a disciple askes: “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” New King James Version
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
It matters not in my opinion, whether one chooses to believe the above was so called "prophesy", but I don't think that it can be denied that all the above mentioned are things that our world and its people are experiencing now, in our time in the 21st century and in our age.
It may be asked , well how did he \ Jesus know? the answer to that is simple: because it had happened before, in another age.
Yes. I am a heretic .....
I didn't ask anyone if they were heretic. But its nice to know where people stand on certain issues sometimes. But I will add that your response here has done nothing more than create more questions.
.......on this matter but I think I understabd how it works. God himself is not bound by the rules he sets either in OT or in NT.
Quite a deep response .... for a heretic. is god not ruled by his own character?
This even means the command to love thy neighbour unconditionally. However, we are explicitly told in NT he is love itself....
So does God then have an changeable nature? Because we are told in the OT by god himself that he is a "god of war". So you are saying then that war is love?
I sense this refers to Holy Spirit specifically and not necessarily the other 2 Persons.
And who or what are these "other two persons? and where does your idea of there being two "others" come from?
Not wanting to drift too far off the topic : If Jesus won't forgive the actions of Judas (because he had, in this instance, changed his mind about forgiveness and love), then why couldn't Jesus control the actions of Judas?...... or Satan, come to that?
The Muslims were dealt the winning hand.
You may well be onto something there? Muslims seem to agree with you, I just think it remains to be seen.
Are atheists allowed in heaven?
I don't have a clue. Define heaven and it's purpose.
Atheists don't believe in the existence of any gods. Most don't believe any of the religious doctrine that goes with it. That means no afterlife and no heaven.
Well you appear to have asked and answered your own question . Or aren't you satisfied with your own answer?
Critical scholars agree disciples had experiences of Jesus appearing
Which scholars?
Matthew 5:44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies.
Matthew 5:39. Turn the other cheek.
Luke 6:27. Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you.
Ephesians 4:32. Forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.
Matthew 6:12-14 And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us........
..............and on and on it goes, love and forgive, love and forgive. . That is until we get to Judas, where we read from the lips of Jesus god himself his dire warning of vengeance.:
"BUT WOE TO THE MAN BY WHOME THE SON OF MAN IS BETRAYED! GOOD WERE IT FOR THAT MAN IF HE HAD NEVR BEEN BORN". [ now hurry up and betray me Judas,quickly] Mark 14:21
We can just feel and see the warm compassion and forgiveness in those words of vengeance can't we? We can also see all those verses about Love and forgiveness go flying clean out of the window too.
Acceptable to Christians that this vengeful warning may be, and as contradictory to the fluffy nature that the scriptures attempt to portray Jesus to be, Christians have to realise that everything that Judas did, was all preordained by god himself , if we are to believe all the prophecies were being carried out. According to Christians and the Bible, this is what " must" happen and Jesus "spoke plainly " about what "must "happen too. Mark 8:31-32. So why the vengeful threat towards Judas, who didn't seem to flinch at the thought of the woe's that awaited him?
We can pick up the story at the last supper where Jesus announces in his usual cryptic fashion that he is about to be betrayed by one of those that dips his bread in the dinner bowel. Which at that point could have been any of them considering this is how a meal was eaten in those times, ie. everyone dipping bread into the same bowl of what ever was on offer.
The protests of "not me Lord" "who is it Lord" and " I would never do that to you Lord " are aplenty . Then-we read that Satan entering Judas and Jesus instructing Judas to go do what he is about to do and to do it quickly.John 13:27. All preordained see. So why the vengeful threat to his betrayer?
As an aside:
Odd isn't it that no one present asked why Judas was leaving the party at night in the dark. There are various excuses made for Judas' sudden disappearance but as usual they simply don't stack up. It is said some thought he was going to buy supplies for the supper, ....that they had already eaten.
But among those things that should stand out is the fact that Satan has entered Judas...... and no one recognised it!? Do the heavily relied on Old Testament for prophecies mention anything about Satan being involved in Jesus' betrayal? NO. The only 'prophecy' that is said to foretell of the betrayal that has been latched onto is Zechariah 11:12-13.
So here we have Judas being warned about doing what he is about to do, and on Jesus` word he goes out into the night to do what he had been instructed to do. But he will wish he had never been born when he does so.
Why hadn't a single one of those present recognized a demon when they seen one and cast him out? nearly 100 of his disciples had only recently been bragging about how they had cast out demons after being endowed with superpowers. Luke 10:17
And nowhere, in the whole of the scriptures will anyone read of anyone praying for love and the forgiveness of Judas...............Or Satan, come to think of it.
Yes, the Apostle Paul mentions Jesus appeared to more than 500 people at one time, stating that most were still alive when he wrote 1 Corinthians, offering them as living witnesses to the resurrection. While the Gospels don't detail this specific large gathering, historians and theologians suggest it likely happened in Galilee, potentially at a large outdoor event like the Ascension, and serves as significant early evidence for Jesus's resurrection.
As mentioned above.#6. Paul was a self confessed liar- for the cause.
offering them as living witnesses to the resurrection.
Well that's not quite true is it? 1 Corinthians 15:3-6, offers nothing but what Paul has to say: hearsay at best, and lies at worst. And without any independent corroboration, leaving Paul's testimony without any value and pointless in fact its a a testimony that wouldn't stand up in any court at the time or now.
"Atheism is not peaceful. Look at what happens".#2
What happens?
Both are asking the same question.#37
And you you have a answer?
with the ultimate goal of pleasing Allah
And nothing pleases Allah more than submission, world domination and to fight the unbeliever until all religion is for Allah.
And the aim of the goal appears to be going just fine for Allah and the boys.
# **Paul’s Claim: Jesus Appeared to 500 Witnesses**
Paul was a self confessed liar he lied to further the cause. ... there again, Jesus told a few porkies himself.
For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? Romans 3:7
"Atheism is not peaceful. Look at what happens".#2
What happens?
"I believe the story of Noah if its reported as a worldwide flood is a heresy ....." #1
The flood story is predated by the Sumerian version by thousands of years and well before the bible (OT) was even thought about. As are many of the other biblical stories. The story of babies in reed baskets is another example.
Of course there are massive exaggerations concerning the size of the flood and the animals 2 by 2 BS.
But as someone as mentioned there are many civilisations that that talk of a flood in their historical ancient pasts.
@Debby "Muslims have different strategies for success. You just outlined two of them".
They do, it's usually the sword. The sword gained Muslims 5 of the worlds largest empires. I'm pretty confident that the Muslim hoards weren't just invited into those conquered lands or welcomed with open arms.
@Debby "He was just trying to explain what deduction was to you. It took a few attempts" .#9
But didn't he say
@SatanLucy"Only dumb people think explaining things counts as evidence".#2 ?