Well as far as this conversation goes, it matters not what their wealth is now. They didn't have a pot to piss in before Western Civilisation stepped in, and that is my point. It wasn't "Allah" that got them out of tents and mud huts practically overnight to living in palaces, it was scientific knowledge from the West..

And they need to remember , that as quick Scientific West elevated them from tents and mud huts to Palaces, the Scientific West can send the right back there!.

No, the Book of Revelation was not designed to be simple reading in the modern sense of the term

. While it promises a blessing to those who read and hear its message, its complex use of symbolism, imagery, and historical context makes it one of the most challenging books of the Bible to interpret for contemporary readers. 

Key factors contributing to its complexity include:

And I have explained a few times now that it isn't difficult to understand. Jesus explained what was to come without the imagery and symbolism In Matthews gospel. He knew this simply because it had happened before - twice before - in fact . He'd been taught that at certain points in the history of mankind that there comes a transfer of power, and a transfer of power was happening in his own time he knew this simply because he understood the time and signs of the Age. The one he was experiencing and living in.

You really aught to read and pay attention to your bible a little closer.

You are entitled to stay on your merry-go -round but I shall get off now.

Try answering the question.

If you don't know then simply say so instead of cut and pasting stuff found on the www that you foolishly believe will get you out of that corner that you have tightly painted yourself into and after lying.

So we agree then, Jesus was alive. He'd not been arrested, nor put on trial, nor sentenced, nor crucified at that time. when the NT tells us that he'd granted the disciples these supernatural powers. And they possessed them at the time of the last supper too. Luke 10:17

SO Why hadn't a single one of those present recognized a demon when they seen one and cast him out?

  Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. Luke 22:3

Debby wrote:Only a return of Jesus will confirm his resurrection.

Stephen wrote: It will. But that leaves the question of identity, doesn't it? How will you know it is he , the same person from the 1st century A.D. ?

Debby wrote: In Christian theology, the return of Jesus (the Second Coming) will be a public, glorious event accompanied by cosmic signs and the gathering of believers

. While His first coming was marked by numerous miracles to validate his identity and message, the return is primarily depicted as an act of judgment and the establishment of his kingdom, with its own unique signs, rather than a series of individual miracles like those performed during his earthly ministry. 

But how will YOU know? And wouldn't it be a third coming considering that also " in Christian theology" AND the bible, Jesus had already come back after the his crucifixion?

Jesus did more good than bad.

According to the bible, for the best part, he did no wrong. But according to Roman law he did much that was wrong and the most of the hierarchy appear to have agreed.

You all know that 14 year old Mary had sex with a Rabbi and when she found that she was pregnant she told her boyfriend that the father was God. Jesus thought he was special until he was crucified on a cross and then said "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?"

That is probably closer to the truth that any Christian would like to face or admit.

Here is what Mary was promised by God.

luke 1:30-5

 30 The angel said to her, “Mary, do not be afraid. You have found favor with God. 31 See! You are to become a mother and have a Son. You are to give Him the name Jesus. 32 He will be great. He will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the place where His early father David sat. 33 He will be King over the family of Jacob forever and His nation will have no end.”

34 Mary said to the angel, “How will this happen? I have never had a man.” 35 The angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come on you. The power of the Most High will cover you. The holy Child you give birth to will be called the Son of God.

And none of that promise came to fruition. The only things that Jesus "inherited" were 3 nails , 2 bits of wood and a nice view over the Kidron valley, for his troubles after being betrayed by one of his own , if the bible is to be believed?

And notice, his TITLE was SON -OF God, not god, nor a "three persons" entity.

I really don't think she could have mothered him much better. You have made up that she did something wrong there.

No, what I have done is point out the bleedin' obvious to everyone but you, it seems. See post #3 above

But with that said, there are times in the bible that Mary - "blessed among all women" - completely failed to look after her holy gift from god, aren't there?

God didnt tell her those details.

I know. He only told her the fluffy stuff about how great he will be and called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of King David, his ancestor.  Of which non of these promises came to fruition.

I wonder why he kept these horrible torturous facts from her and didn't tell her the whole truth? It was a bit mean and that  this was a cruel and deceitful promise to make to a mother while keeping from her the truth of her sons cruel torturous demise at such a young at age? 

Jesus and his disciples depended on the generosity and support of others......

That's right. He mooched off all the women in his movement although he did had many rich friend in high places... and low ones.

 What kind of mother would go joyously bounding off in jubilation and excitement to tell her cousin the "good news" that she was going to have a baby from god that was going to be hunted down, betrayed and arrested and put on trial,  and then beaten senseless then sentenced to death by being nailed to a wooden cross, speared between the ribs and left to die an agonising death? 

Only a return of Jesus will confirm his resurrection.

It will. But that leaves the question of identity, doesn't it? How will you know it is he , the same person from the 1st century A.D. ?

when Jesus first sent them out on their initial mission, granting them power and authority over diseases and demons (Luke 9:1-2; Matthew 10:1)

So we agree then, Jesus was alive. He'd not been arrested, nor put on trial, nor sentenced, nor crucified at that time. when the NT tells us that he'd granted the disciples these supernatural powers. And they possessed them at the time of the last supper too. Luke 10:17

SO Why hadn't a single one of those present recognized a demon when they seen one and cast him out?

  Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. Luke 22:3

It has been explained to you why the Book of Revelations is difficult to understand. 

I have a countered that simply by telling you it isn't hard to understand. By showing you that Jesus in Mathew's gospel actually spells it out without the imagery and symbolism and in language that even you should be capable of understanding?

Revelation speaks of what is to come and what will happen and what it will actually be like at the end of the Age , while Jesus himself in Mathews gospel tells of the signs - " the birth pains" that show will show that the end of the age is near .

muslims were already bless with land and oil reserves.

LOL but they didn't know that , did they? Certainly not before the unbeliever discovered it, and taught them how to extract it and refine in. That had nothing to do with "Allah" at all.

You are absolutely shite at following a conversation, aren't you? " Debby"

So you don’t know what heaven is like. Is that because you are an atheist?

And neither do you. But I asked you what happens if one is fortunate enough to get to heaven? What do we do there? What goes on?

Ok . I won't bother breaking down all of your nutty fluffy BS above, just explain this: what happens and what do people do when or if they happen to reach heaven?

Do they all sit at the feet of god /Jesus staring up at him lovingly for the rest of eternity?

outnumber Christians globally around the year 2070, if current demographic trends continue. 

I agree. and I am sure that every person in the West has worked this out for themselves as much as our own Western government like to ignore it.

Muslim-majority countries hold a significant portion of the world's oil reserves and production, especially in the Middle East (Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, UAE, Kuwait), giving them substantial influence, but 

they don't exclusively "control" it, as major producers like the U.S., Russia, and China are non-Muslim, and oil is a global resource found everywhere. The concentration of oil in the Muslim world has significantly shaped global economics and politics, creating powerful oil-exporting states, but production and ownership are diverse, with non-Muslim nations also being major players. 

Indeed. And they believe it was all a gift from Allah. Even though it was Western civilisation that discovered their liquid gold and taught them how to distract it and refine it.

You ae simply repeating yourself now.

Revelation is not "difficult to understand£ once you have read the warnings in Mathew , as Mathew is the same warning as revelation with the imagery and symbolism removed , as I already explained to you, twice!

Yes, the disciples received the powerful gift of the Holy Spirit after Jesus's departure, 

Now you are simply lying. You have purposely ignored the biblical evidence that I posted above that proves you to be wrong in the first instance. HERE>> #31WHY!?

You claimed no one could drive out Satan at the last supper because they hadn't been given the power to do so at that time #30.

Debby wrote: The disciples only received the gifts of healing after Jesus departed. #30.

I have proven you to be totally wrong and now you act as if I hadn't even replied... at all . and simply made the same already debunked claim.

So admit your mistake ( lack of obvious biblical knowledge) and then we can move forward.

Key Points of Agreement (Even Among Skeptics):

Empty Tomb: Many scholars accept the tomb was found empty.

And empty tomb is only evidence that a tomb was said to have been found empty.... if any of the Jesus story is to be believed.

Post-Mortem Appearances: Most agree Jesus' followers experienced appearances of the risen Christ.

And many Scholars of theology agree on the opposite believing the, so called, resurrection of Jesus was nothing more than a rehash story of the ancient Egyptian Osiris myth. And there are other "Scholars" that point us to the ancient myths of many dying and rising gods before the Jesus era. And about as many "Virgin births" and sons of god too.

Early Christian Belief: The resurrection was central to the earliest Christian preaching. 

I agree , but does it make the Jesus resurrection story anymore genuine and believable than all those resurrection stories that came before?

Debby wrote: Critical scholars agree disciples had experiences of Jesus appearing

Stephen wrote: Which scholars?

Gerd Lüdemann, Bart Ehrman, Helmut Koester, Larry Hurtado, Gerd Lüdemann, and the Jesus Seminar. These scholars affirm the disciples' conviction and experiences as historical facts, though their interpretations vary from psychological phenomena (hallucinations, grief visions) to genuine, albeit non-physical, divine encounters, forming the basis for early Christian faith. 

Ok I'll indulge You.

Gerd Lüdemann.

Gerd Lüdemann, only spoke of Peters proclaimed "vision" in the same vein as Saul/Paul claimed to have a "vision" on the road to Damascus, Which if you have read for yourself is another contradictory mess.

Lüdemann was a born again Christian by conversion at a mission of his home town, in May 1963, but eventually he lost his faith.

Incidently, Ludmann has a book out titled: The resurrection of Christ in which he states with compelling evidence: " the resurrection was not a historical event and further argues that this development leaves little, if any, basis for Christian faith as presently defined.

https://www.eden.co.uk/christian-books/theology-books/christology/the-resurrection-of-christ/

Bart Ehrman.

I happen to like his work. He too has much to criticize about the New Testament he too lost his faith telling his readers "the problem of suffering became for me the problem of faith"  and has said, "I no longer go to church, no longer believe, no longer consider myself a Christian". In a 2008 interview he said, "I simply didn't believe that there was a God of any sort". He's an agnostic.

I could go on ,and will if I must or if you insist. But your " scholars" do not add up to much in the way of proof or evidence of a resurrection and you really should research your claims before quoting from others that you happen to believe support your claim/s. Especially when they appear to support evidence to the contrary.

I could provide much the same as you from other "Scholars" including high serving Nuns and Priests that claim not only was there no resurrection but that Jesus didn't even die on the cross!. Which I happen also to believe and was more likely the case

Stephen wrote:Why hadn't a single one of those present recognized a demon when they seen one and cast him out?  Nearly over 70 of his disciples had only recently been bragging about how they had cast out demons after being endowed with superpowers?.

Debby wrote:The disciples only received the gifts of healing after Jesus departed.

No. Not true at all, is it? Jesus hadn't even been crucified at that point !!!

If we take just Luke's gospel we see the power to cast out demons and perform other supernatural feats', we can clearly can read that these excited disciples on returning to Jesus after a mission saying:

"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name". Luke 10:17KJV

So they had the gift of these powers well before the last supper.

And

It is not until Luke 23 that we read about the the crucifixion !!!! That's 13 verses later!!!

So either you are totally wrong or these (god inspired ) gospels are nothing more than jumbled up ambiguous mess that are seriously lacking simple chronology?

Yes, 

Yes, What?

the Christian Trinity doctrine describes one God existing as three co-eternal, co-equal Persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit, meaning they share one divine essence but are distinct in their roles, often summarized as "one God in three Persons," not three separate gods. It's a concept of unity within diversity, where each Person is fully God, yet there is only one God, a mystery beyond simple math [.................]

Well IMHO, you'd have done well to simply stop after you wrote the words - Christian Trinity Doctrine. OR was it a cut- N - paste.

You are quoting Matthew when the discussion is “ The Book of Revelation is difficult to understand.”

Yes I know perfectly well I'm quoting from Mathews gospel. But you seem to have missed my reason for doing so. i.e. Jesus' words in Mathew appear to bolster those words in revelation. That is to say that they support or strengthen what is written.

While Judaism and Christianity are divided over how many Gods.

They mat well be divided but that well may well be because the bible is a contradictory classical mess and Christians are well known for contradicting what their ow book clearly states. And who can blame them? And those "Scholars" you keep mentioning ( which I shall look at Soon) have been arguing over the OT and NT for millennia.

Muslims stand behind their single God Allah.

Who doesn't seem to have done them any favours since they created him. You are talking about a people that believe "Allah" gave them victory over two of the world super powers - yes, I know, but let us not laugh.

I gave the reason why atheist don’t go to heaven.

You did. But I asked you to define heaven and its purpose. Here>>>#40

Odd then that some of the smartest people lack basic common-sense.

Maybe because common sense produces the right result? I believe these kind of people are referred to as "clever sillies".

Jesus felt forsaken by God.

And he felt that with good reason. "Ask and it will be given", we are told in Matthew 7:7-8

Well Jesus -son of god - when sweating blood and begging his "father" for his life soon seen that promise fly clean out the window . didn't he?

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”. Luke 22:42

Christ Messiah was an extremely special title. It was unlike any ordinary Messiah.

And where in any of the 4 Gospels is Jesus addressed as Christ - messiah? The words Christ and messiah have their own meanings and they are not "special" in any way.

linate wrote: @SergeantLynch. But when it comes to nde science you guys are irrational or ignorant:

But you do admit :

"i reject your reality... and substitute it, with my own".

https://www.debatecraft.com/users/linate

I think that is a tad ignorant, myself.