not counters soldier - but interacts with it in some weird way
Extremely unlikely
not counters soldier - but interacts with it in some weird way
Extremely unlikely
whiteflame wrote:
Thoth wrote:
Shining pretty much townlocked whiteflame by voting me and not getting a quickhammer. All that's left for me to do now is imagine any scenario where whiteflame doesn't quickhammer.
Yeah, I'm not seeing it. But then why would scum!Shining vote me, knowing that?
I don't understand the question.
From where you're sitting, if you're town, he's solid scum by POE alone.
From my perspective, he could be either.
If he's scum, he knows you're telling the truth about your role and wouldn't VTL me, which means his only choice is you.
If he's town, he didn't know either way, but determined that you were more likely to be scum out of the two of us.
At this point, it doesn't matter whether you're voting me or him. By virtue of your role, it would result in a town win either way as long as I hammer. What matters is convincing the only town confirmed player that you're town and Shining isn't. Shining has incentive to do the same comparison. I'm still waiting to hear from both of you on that front, otherwise you're leaving the entire decision up to my own analysis. It's your call if that's what you want. I'm half tempted to just flip a coin at this point.
The only possible reason I can think of why you wouldn't hammer me if you were is scum is that you have some role that counters Soldier. I guess it's possible, but extremely unlikely. So flip a coin and hammer. I am fine with that.
Overthinking is a classic curse
VTL: Shining
Shining pretty much townlocked whiteflame by voting me and not getting a quickhammer. All that's left for me to do now is imagine any scenario where whiteflame doesn't quickhammer.
Yeah, I'm not seeing it. But then why would scum!Shining vote me, knowing that?
I would ask that nobody hammer until tomorrow evening so I can ISO, but town wins if either of you two die, so hammer away if you feel like it should be hammer time.
Part of it is that there's so little to ISO from Shining that he might as well be null. My scumread on you isn't that strong, but it's, like, the scale is tipped mildly towards you being scum when there's nothing really swinging Shining one way or the other.
whiteflame wrote:
So many things about your chat and your interpretation of what was said therein are beyond me, dude. Trying to get a read off of that is damn near impossible, but I also don't think that you as scum would be so defensive of someone who was nearly certain to be the lynch last DP.
I've wanted to share in more detail what exactly we said, but I've been afraid of getting mod-killed like Lunatic did with his PM. I'll ask Pie how much I can share and how precisely I can share it.
I would love to get some insight into why you view me as scum because the only reason I've seen so far is that I trusted Mikal for too long despite a pseudo-CC and that the possibility of two redirection roles in the game is just something you feel is off. Is that it?
I will get back to you in more depth on that after a thorough ISO.
Maybe because he was very confident that Shining in particular was scum? He said so multiple times last DP.
Kohai wrote:
Automated Vote Count
This vote count was generated by the mafia vote bot.
whiteflame (1/2): Thoth (p#6)
Not Voting (2): Shining, whiteflame
With 3 players alive, it takes 2 to lynch. Day phase ends in 1 day, 20 hours.
I take it this means that Kohai is watching the game and pressed the Post Vote Count button? Lmao, should that be allowed?
I gotta say that whiteflame has been more abrasive and apparently frustrated this game than I've ever seen him before, and I kind of get the impression that it's leaking from scum chat, like he's pissed at Mikal getting mod-killed and Helz leaking that he had an exclusively scum role.
I think it's 70/30 of you/Shining being scum
Quick thought: Why did they kill Bullish instead of me, knowing that I am Soldier? From my perspective, the only reason I can think of is because they were afraid Bullish could get a result that would implicate Shining or whiteflame. That's worth thinking about.
whiteflame wrote:
I can't say I would have just claimed it if it was my actual role and was revealed in DP4, but I'm not going to hold that against you. That being said, if Bullish had somehow survived the NP, Shining would have been lynched by now. No way he was scum.
I was kinda afraid that I would look that much scummier if I took extra time to concoct a plausible fake-claim that would keep me alive until today.
So Helz actively gave away the exact spelling of his role with a capital letter at the front? Straight claiming an obviously scummy role like that was certainly a choice, just a shame we didn't force an explanation out of him sooner. Strikes me as odd that you didn't think to look it up.
Call me retarded if you want, but it didn't occur to me to look up that role since I was under the impression that Helz made that name up based on his justification, not that it was an accepted name for a longstanding role.
It's still unclear whether you're sussing me or just doubling down on winning this game with your role. Which is it?
At this point, I think it's more likely you than Shining, but, given my track record of gutreads this game, that's almost evidence that Shining is scum lmao. Yes, I am trying to win, possibly by using my role.
Shining wrote:
Theres the issue of you being vanilliaised and given that Mikal and Helz aren't a vanilliaizer, you either lied or can't be scum.
I've never been completely comfortable buying that Pie included two redirective roles despite the mod headache that can cause.
I would like to point out that Pie included both an Innocent Child and a Soldier in MAGA Mafia, which had fewer players than this game does, in case either of you see that as a point against my claim. That, and my Soldier is a sort of play on the DP4 Innocent Child I had in that game.
I was retarded to claim Soldier btw. I shoulda spent more time coming up with some bullshit. I can't believe scum apparently let me live.
Shining wrote:
Something I am thinking about is that Thoth seemingly slipped calling Helz Vaporizer last DP.
whiteflame wrote:
So either you or he capitalized the role. No one did that publicly before you said it in the DP. But on the one hand, you just saying Helz never told you "Vaporizer" was the role, and on the other hand, you just said you had never heard of it and didn't bother to look it up. Explain that.
I can't copy-paste out of our chat, but, yes, Helz did suggest that his role could be called Vaporizer with a capital V and I went with it. He explicitly said that wasn't the role's official name, just what he was calling it.
whiteflame wrote:
Thoth wrote:
VTL: whiteflame
Thank you, Pie
Well, hat's off to you, man. You just straight up confirmed yourself scum to me. If Shining was scum, he would have already hammered me and we'd be in the endgame. Now all I have to do is wait for Shining to convince himself that I'm town and the game ends. Thanks for making it easy.
Do you know what the role Soldier is
Re: DP5 #149. I never sussed that because I had never heard of Vaporizer and Helz told me that Vaporizer was not his role’s official name.
whiteflame wrote:
Thoth wrote:
I would vote whiteflame since being Soldier means town wins as long as they don’t lynch me, but I can’t select him
I added myself to the game, bit of an oversight on Pie’s part.
As for the rest of this… so are you trying to vote me because you think I’m town, because you think I’m scum, or just because of your wincon? I guess it wouldn’t matter to you if you’re telling the truth, but this is not the way to win either of us over.
There’s barely anything to ISO from Shining. I was gutreading you as scum until I shept Helz’s supposed townread of you, and now Helz’s flip has made my read of you turn a full 360°. So consider my vote on you a temporary park.
Automated Vote Count
This vote count was generated by the mafia vote bot.
whiteflame (1/2): Thoth (p#6)
Not Voting (2): Shining, whiteflame
With 3 players alive, it takes 2 to lynch. Day phase ends in 1 day, 23 hours.
VTL: whiteflame
Thank you, Pie
I would vote whiteflame since being Soldier means town wins as long as they don’t lynch me, but I can’t select him
So now I have to analyze everything before this DP knowing that Helz was scum. Great. Helz saying in our chat that he thought whiteflame was town has flipped my read there 180.
I figure I am about to get turbolynched for having sheeped (shept?) Helz. It barely crossed my mind that he could have seen through my bait, which I suppose was arrogant, in hindsight.
Would voting for Helz have made me the night-kill? I figure that, if I had gone against Helz last DP, I would be browsing from the afterlife. If they would have left me alive, better to rein in Helz than surf in Heaven.
whiteflame wrote:
So you grabbed the term Rolestopper, and he used the term Vaporizer
I did ask him if he was Rolestopper and he confirmed that he thought that is what his role is normally called on here.
whiteflame wrote:
You're in here now saying that he never claimed. So it's somehow "kinda rude to claim" that he'd never stated his character in chat and had actively given you his role by name. Seriously?
Nani? Helz full-claimed his role and justification to me. I was under the impression that he had probably claimed his element in public earlier and did not check. That's why I said earlier this DP that Helz had full-claimed to me.
whiteflame wrote:
So he literally didn't claim his character anywhere until this DP. Not in chat with you, not in public here,
This appears to be correct.
and he outright told you that the reason he didn't do so was because of a challenge he set for himself.
Yes, but I had forgotten about the challenge and missed it when I read through our chat earlier this day phase.
Then he posted repeatedly in here that he already had full claimed, despite never having done so.
Maybe he has a different idea of what full-claiming means than you do.
And he specifically called his role Rolestopper despite now saying that the role doesn't have a name. Do I have that correct?
He did not use the term Rolestopper in our chat. He called it Vaporizer based on the justification, but said that name was not used in his DM, nor was Rolestopper. He then said that he was given a flavor name, which I figure means his role name (like Doctor, Tracker) but did not want to say it because of his self-imposed challenge. Why would he call it Vaporizer and bring up his justification but then decline to give his role's name? Your guess is as good as mine.
I think you're overestimating your ability to draw others into your bluff, man. I understand wanting to believe that what you did here was proof positive, but it's not that good of a bluff and it's easy enough for someone to see through. If I was in there, I wouldn't have bought it.
Wouldn't S!whiteflame, if he correctly called that bluff, try to get me turbolynched in hopes that nobody in the thread would buy my, "it was just master baiting", excuse?
I really don't like this. You were outright willing to claim your role. Why are you so skittish about a claim from Helz who either lied to you or lied to us?
I'm not skittish. It just seems to me like the person with a role should be the one to claim as long as they are alive. Kinda rude to claim on someone's behalf.
Bullish wrote:
Thoth, you said "Yes" to "Did Helz full claim to you?", but later you said "Helz did not claim Nitrogen in our chat."
Full claim means character AND role claim. What exactly did Helz claim to you?
Helz told me that he was 2x Rolestopper. He didn't mention his element, but I assumed he had already mentioned it somewhere, hence why I called that a full-claim. Now that I'm re-reading this more carefully, though, Helz did say in our chat that his challenge this game was to not talk about flavor, so that may be why he didn't claim Nitrogen anywhere.
whiteflame wrote:
So because Helz saw through the bluff, you straight townread him? Am I reading this right?
No, not quite. I'm townreading Helz because I can't really imagine that he would have seen through it if he were scum. I was cagey about revealing this because I wanted to save the, “I’m a winshare neutral, please cooperate with me”, bait for future games.
OK. What did he claim? Character, role and any justification you received. Why are you being so cagey about giving this stuff out?
Helz should claim that first and then I confirm.