Thoth

How about this from Shining's DP1:

I also don't fully understand why Mikal is getting shit for the whole Kohai IC thing.

Yes. It wouldn't be a first for you to just claim without talking to your partners about it. And that's not responsive to the point I'm making. I didn't say your element wasn't heavy. I'm saying your justification stands out a lot compared with every single flip we've seen.

But then you'd have to believe that not only have I learned nothing from previous games, but also that Mikal and Helz let me make all the later additions or changes that I did in addition to the initial claim of having a hidden role. If my justification stands out, it's only because the other justifications are wild, and I don't think anybody was sussing the clear and obvious justification of having a hidden role because Oganesson has barely been studied.

Yeah, and decisions made in DP1 aren't tied to any results or activity beyond what's posted in the DP, so no, they aren't very informative. It's all a lot of WIFOM. Do I think Mikal would pretend to townread your claim? Sure, plenty of us did. That doesn't mean he townlocked you. Mikal said multiple times in chat with me that he was sussing you, so no, this doesn't work.

I can't really refute this point other than by pointing out that you yourself acknowledge this is all WIFOM, hence not really a point for or against me.

And your story changes again. Lovely. This is not helping you.

I've never changed my story. If it looks that way, it's because you're misunderstanding fragments of it that I've posted and not looking at the other information I gave.

...why would you get credit for an extremely weak early bus that was never going to achieve a lynch?

If nothing else, because I wasn't on the mislynch wagon when scum had no way to know that they would get enough townies to finish it.

You read him as null and didn't go through with an ISO on him. That's what I'm pointing out.

I did ISO Shining, repeatedly. I just didn't end up finding much noteworthy that you didn't point out already.

You said he capitalized it for you in the chat, effectively giving the role a name, and then walked it back. You never once thought it was a good idea to check and see if he may have slipped? Really?

No, I actually did never consider the possibility that it was a slip. Again, I thought Vaporizer was just Helz's way of saying that his justification had something to do with vaporizing the abilities that were going to affect his target.

I'm not convinced they're involved in anything you're doing here today, and the delay out to DP4 seems to have worked pretty well for you, so... yes? And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they are upset with you.

I have an even harder time imagining Helz being uninvolved with a game than I would have had convincing myself last DP that my townread of him was wrong.

Helz also said later that he assumed his role would be called Vaporizer if it had an official name, but that he had never heard of a role called that. I assume he knew about that role and was tricking me into not looking it up.

whiteflame wrote:

Because it is by far the weakest logic out of all of them. Read back through all the flips we have, scum and town. None of them just say "it has this generalized property, thus you are _____." They all point to specific roles these elements play in different environments, behavioral patterns, discovery conditions, chemical bonds, and nuclear physics. Even Shining's role directly relates to Uranium's use in bombs. How does yours comport with any of those? For that matter, "heaviest" is just a weird delineation when it comes to elements. It's the heaviest by atomic mass, but it's not the densest. That would be Osmium. Why is heaviest the measure Pie would select and not density? Why not point to literally anything any element has over all over elements on the Periodic Table and use that as a basis for the Soldier? It's weird, man.

And are you going to tell me that Mikal and Helz let me claim that, if all your points are legitimate? And this does make sense as the measure of heaviness because it's periodic table of elements mafia. You can see the atomic mass written right on the reiodic table entry, at least if your table goes that far.

Why are you talking about getting modkilled now? You're talking about in-game choices you made... all the way back in DP1, as though that somehow defends you against anything I said. And no, I don't believe you tied yourself to Mikal in any way. Where are you getting that?

If I'm scum now, I've been scum from the beginning, so, yes, it does make sense to bring up choices that I made all the way back then. Mikal was hard townreading that slip even though he didn't say that it totally townlocked me.

I literally quoted your specific responses, so yes, you did provide contradictory answers. Yes, you did use the capitalized word "Vaporizer" first publicly in the DP. And I only have your word that all this is explained by the contents of a chat you can't show me.

Helz called it Vaporizer with a capital V, although, now that I'm looking at it again, that might just have been because he started a sentence with it, not because he was necessarily using it as a proper noun. Helz described his role as anything targeting the person gets vaporized, other than, presumably, his ability. I interpreted this as Pie's justification for Rolestopper.

They would probably be raging at me right now

If Mikal and Helz were in scum chat with me, do you think they would let me change my story like this and not provide me with a fake claim yesterday before I claimed Soldier today?

the decision not to look it up after Helz said it that specific way is beyond me.

Again, I had no reason to think it was the role's official name. I figured that Helz's justification said something like, "you have role X because you vaporize things", and that was Helz's nickname for his role.

basically just blanket null reads Shining because apparently he hasn’t posted enough to get any reads (not accurate)

I'm not saying that Shining has posted nothing, just that there wasn't nearly as much to work from there as with some other players.

Despite seemingly tying myself to Helz later, can I get some towncred for being the only person voting him at the end of day 1?

Disregarding the fact that U is for Uranium... Bombs!, how do you justify going from this:

Uranium to Bomb is such an obvious 1 to 1 that I’m wondering if this is another “Cobalt is Magnet” situation.

To this:

The "Uranium is Bomb" claim is not great, either, as it looks most akin to Mikal's claim out of all the ones we've seen so far.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you sussing the claim because the justification is too clean?

Nevermind. The justification has just come down to “it’s the heaviest, therefore Soldier,” which seems baffling

Oganesson outweighs the last scum because it's the heaviest element. How is that baffling?

I'd also like to bring up the Connor/Luna fiasco from day 1. If this gets me modkilled, so be it, I might be about to die before Pie gets on. You'd have to believe I tied myself to both of my scum partners super aggressively while setting up the hidden-role claim that only pays off if I make it to the end.

DP5: Claims Soldier, spends a lot of the DP evading or holding off answering questions about what was communicated between him and Helz in chat, giving sometimes contradictory answers (“Helz told me that he was 2x Rolestoppper” vs. “He did not use the term Rolestopper in our chat” vs. “I did ask him if he was the Rolestopper and he confirmed that he thought that is what his role is normally called on here”), stating the role “Vaporizer” for the first time publicly, and giving weak reasons for townreading Helz.

I don't believe that I ever gave contradictory answers. If it sounded like I did, I think I've clarified it. Again: Helz claimed something that sounded like Rolestopper; I suggested that's what his role was; he agreed but said that it wasn't called Rolestopper, and instead suggested Vaporizer without claiming that was his role's official name.

Am at trivia night atm, will respond when at home

And I remembered that previous game. I wasn't actively combing through Pie's past games to find justification.

Shining wrote:

Then why would a town Thoth decide to switch votes...?

Symbolism

So explain to me how this makes you more town to me now.

I was serving up whoppers with the intention of using Soldier. Yes, I lied my ass off repeatedly, but you can see in hindsight that it was all to maximize the possibility that my role could win the game.

whiteflame wrote:

So pointing to the DP4 Innocent Child earlier as support for your claim was a red herring, then? And you're telling me that part of my townread on your initial claim, which was based on the element being relatively new and not "seriously studied," is gone now? I missed the part where that makes me townread you more.

Yeah, it was kind of a red herring, but keep in mind that Pie did still put an Innocent Child and a Soldier together in MAGA Mafia. I think the townreadable part is that I set up my claim from the start to use Soldier.

Shining wrote:

How does Soldier work again?

This has to be a ploy for towncred. Surely Mikal and Helz told you that Soldier means town wins if it's them and one scm alive.

Notwithstanding that I moved my vote to Shining a while ago.

whiteflame wrote:

Where did you softclaim?

The hidden role ploy was the soft-claim. Soldier works best when kept under wraps.

Aren't you supposed to be at work btw? Next time I get food poisoning, I'm blaming your Mafia addiction

Or, at least, until I HOPED it would matter. I fucked myself hard by undoing all that with a Soldier claim.

Do you think that's a reason for me to townread you?

Yes, because it means that, in a sense, I breadcrumbed my role ab initio. That was just a cover to keep attention off of me until it mattered.

Also, I gotta say that I would do a lot of incautious things as scum, but I can't imagine many scenarios where I would have tied myself to Helz as unreservedly as I did.

whiteflame wrote:

Do you think that's a reason for me to townread you? Can you give a clear set of reasons for me to townread you? A set of reasons to scumread Shining? Something, man. Anything.

Look at the reason I was scumreading Shining, though. How often do you get a good set of reads out of Shining? Don't you think the mob was feeding him something, or at least that he was reading the Cliffnotes in scumchat?

I would like to point out that I sussed Shining in Day 1 #496

So Shining is scumlock from my perspective. That means all I can do is play defense. Any specific things from my ISO that you want to grill me about?

whiteflame wrote:

Thoth wrote:

Yeah, go ahead, flip that coin, but do it between yourself and Shining.

...The coin flip would be between you and either of us (the choice between Shining and me seems unimportant unless there's some counter to the Soldier, which I'm just going to assume there isn't - if you're Town, we win either way). You should stop assuming you're solid town to me because from where I'm sitting, you aren't. You're on one side of that coin until you give me a reason to take you off.

What if I told you that I made up the hidden role as cover for Soldier?

How did I slip btw?

Yeah, go ahead, flip that coin, but do it between yourself and Shining.