Thoth

"Lynching"

Thoth · a year ago

Opposition to the use of the word is, imo, moronic, and a reflection of the shambolic state of American education. The word 'lynching' was specifically coined to describe a specific type of execution which was extrajudicial. It was coined around the time of the Revolutionary War, likely when a man by the name of Charles Lynch was performing such extrajudicial executions on people who were suspected British loyalists - mostly white.

Not to deny that the American public education system is shambolic, but the problem with lynching is the connotation it has incurred, not its etymology. The infamous N-word, the one that the Boondocks version of Martin Luther King Jr. rightly called the ugliest word in the English language, comes from the Latin niger, which means black. If I called a black person the slur that starts with N and explained that, if he had paid attention in Latin class, he would have known that I was only calling him black, do you think that black people would crown me King of the Black People a la Peter Griffin? The slur for homosexuals that starts with F can also mean a cigarette or a bundle of sticks.


In this sense, it acted as a sort of ersatz justice system in areas which were still 'wild' and untamed, and I believe the overall estimated 'accuracy' of such trials hovered around 66%. At its best the practice erased the privileges granted by wealth and political connections and acted as a 'mob's veto' on the unbiased ruling of a corrupt judge or of the abuse of pardon powers - to excuse those with power who had behaved in a way which would have seen a normal citizen executed. At its worst, it fueled witch hunts or represented an escalation of factional opprobrium, racial or religious or otherwise, to a deadly pitch.


I can't say that any of this is wrong, but it does not change the fact that people associate lynching with racism because, within memory much more recent than the American Revolution or even the Wild West, lynching was largely a method by which white people terrorized black people and maintained white supremacy. Slavery has been almost co-extensive with civilization throughout history, many non-black people have been enslaved, and black slaves were often sold to white traders after having been enslaved by other black Africans, yet, when most Americans think of slavery, they immediately think of black people picking cotton for white masters. Whether or not the word slavery should make people think of that is irrelevant because it conjures thoughts of racism and oppression still relevant to our society, which, if you ask me, is undesirable.


Yeah, lynchings can be an ugly thing. Yes, lynchings have a complicated history in the US. But lynchings in mafia are also ugly. We often kill the wrong person, persecuting the innocent while the guilty go free. It's an often inaccurate, emotionally charged, and driven by paranoia, or personal animus, or by results which have been tampered with. I loathe the pattern of neutering language in a way which makes it inaccurate. Calling it an 'elimination' is sterile and less accurate. The problem is that any word that accurately reflects what is being done - eliminating someone by mob rule often in the absence of hard facts - will have ugly real-world connotations because any such process will be ugly and prone to historical abuses.

There is no escaping that the flavor is voting someone out is killing them, which inherently has ugly real-world connotations and can bring nasty thoughts to mind, but 'lynch' sprinkles racism on top of murder.


I agree that a better alternative than 'elimination' is wanted, but not that elimination is less accurate, although it is perhaps less precise, using the scientific definitions of accurate and precise. Voting someone out eliminates them from the pool of living players. If whatever word we use to mean, "vote a player out during the day", becomes accepted vernacular, then implications like potentially killing the wrong person, voting based on unverifiable gut feelings, and relying on falsified evidence will transfer to the new word unaccompanied by the racist connotation of 'lynch'.


Using the word lynch is good because it impresses into players' minds both the fact that they are engaging in an inexact process that is easily manipulated by both high emotional tides and nefarious actors.

Players should understand that anyway, no?


At the same time, when you leave the game and go into the real world, the word 'lynch' will be accurately tinged with an aura of unreliability, injustice, doubt, and finality that is far more visceral than any connotations imparted by the dry historical record. You will also understand why lynching happened and why it is historically a tempting process because you would have engaged in a simulacrum of the process yourself. You will remember being absolutely convinced that someone was guilty, gathering up a mob, pushing their lynch, only to sheepishly see the flip and realize how wrong you were.

As enlightening of a classroom exercise as this could be, whatever lesson in herd mentality 'lynch' imparts is outweighed many times over by its potential to instigate thoughts of racist violence, almost like a trauma trigger. Should we start every post in the day thread with Heil Hitler and flavor getting voted out as being put on a train to the gas chamber so that games will double as reminders that we can be susceptible to fascist propaganda?

Thoth

"Lynching"

Thoth · a year ago

Hang seems better than eliminate. Distinguishes what town does from what scum does a bit better.

Hang is better than lynch, but still carries some racist connotation. If only there were a verb meaning, "stabbed to death with a pitchfork".

Thoth

Kohai's uPick

Thoth · a year ago

Yes, it means that scum are able to chat during the day; also there might be other roles like masons or neighborhoods that would also have day chat.

I am not familiar with the term neighborhood. Do neighbors differ from masons in that the latter know they are all town?

Thoth

Kohai's uPick

Thoth · a year ago

This is an example of what that is

In my opinion, that's so transparent that it hardly qualifies as bread-crumbing.

Thoth

Kohai's uPick

Thoth · a year ago

/in


Vote: 90s and early 2000's nostalgia


What is bread-crumbing?


I have an idea of what cryptography is, but I'm not sure how I could encrypt something so that only certain people can read it unless I can communicate with them outside the game, which I presume is still banned.


All factions have day chat.

Does this just mean that scum can talk in scum chat during the day?


What is multiball?

Thoth

"Lynching"

Thoth · a year ago

MS and MU retired and banned the lynch word years ago.

I take it you mean MafiaScum and MafiaUniverse?

Thoth

"Lynching"

Thoth · a year ago

Someone might call the term lynch harmless because, for instance: lynching is not necessarily racial; many white people were lynched; lynching victims had often been convicted of a serious crime and sentenced to death, and capital punishment was normal in those days. None of these facts change that lynching was a means by which white people terrified black people into subjugation, and therefore that the word lynch could, especially for black people, bring to mind unpleasant thoughts. That's why it needs to go.

Thoth

"Lynching"

Thoth · a year ago

Well, it cuts both ways. The racist connotation is largely because it's usually used to refer to racist killings (even if it doesn't only mean that). Everyone who was lynched was hanged and killed, but those words don't carry the same connotation because we choose to continue using them in other contexts. I'd say the racist connotation behind the word "lynch" depends on intent, but again, the game is supposed to be fun, so if using a different term makes it more so for most people, then we should do that.

I don't think it's worth getting excessively worked up about, but it also would not be excessively difficult to change.

Thoth

"Lynching"

Thoth · a year ago

Most sites use Vote: Playername to eliminate someone. We shorten it to VTL

I'm fine with eliminate, and my only complaint is that I think new players would naturally assume it means all kills, like with my other group, where 'eliminate' includes ly... being voted out during the day, guns (one-use kills during the day), night-kills, et cetera.


'Lynch' isn't in the rules there. It doesn't need to be. They are much more left-leaning than Debatecraft. None of them would dare use the L-word. I remember Lunatic calling something "fvcking retarded" in Ranger's Apprentice. He probably would have gotten banned for that. At least a stern warning.

Thoth

"Lynching"

Thoth · a year ago

I hope this won't be seen as influencing the ongoing game, although Kohai closed the last thread I made and I did not think that topic would be a problem.


I don't like the word 'lynch' for voting someone out. Lynch has a strongly negative connotation, partially because it implies that the person was killed without due process, but mostly because of its association with racism. People hear 'lynch' and think of a white mob surrounding a black man hanging from a tree. That does not mean that 'lynch' is inherently racist, but it is unsalvageably steeped in racism, much like 'plantation' just means a big farm but brings to mind black slaves picking cotton.


I know that lynch become the accepted term in Mafia to the point where it mostly does not sound racist any more than the name Mafia makes us imagine that the night-kills are done by Italian men in suits, but I still don't like it, and I'm not sure whether being so used to it that we overlook the racist connotation makes it less problematic or more insidious.


I'm not trying to be a PC snowflake, but a change in terminology is overdue.

Thoth

This is from post #170 in day 1 of the currently running Mafia game, but I think the topic is general enough to discuss here.


We're one of the few sites where flavor claiming occurs. I almost never see mass flavor claiming. But that's a separate issue completely.


Besides my curiosity as to how many sites Kohai has played on, I would like to know how well mass flavor claiming works. The idea is that, by having everyone claim some aspect of their character early on, later fake-claiming will be harder because each person will have fewer characters to choose from. That sounds great, but is there empirical evidence that it works? Have you ever wanted to fake-claim a character as scum and then found out that doing so would have contradicted your soft-claim? In Ranger's Apprentice, I brought up gender soft-claiming (post #124) as scum because I knew that there were few important women in this series, and, with Evanlyn claimed, female claims would probably mean Alyss Mainwaring or Madelyn Altman.


Just because an idea sounds promising does not mean that it will withstand scrutiny.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

You've VTL'd Kohai, who has fullclaimed, on the basis that your role PM incriminates him, but won't share your role PM. You're going to get lynched anyway if you don't claim.

When you put it like that, I see why I got voted out.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

If Thoth is telling the truth this still leaves us with someone who's a whole species and someone who's a specific life cycle of that species, which is weird.

You mean if Thoth is telling the truth and Kohai is also telling the truth.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

We really need to start doing verbal affirmations instead of actual votes to prevent this type of BS

Never put your finger inside the trigger guard until you are ready to fire.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

I would have claimed at L-1, but I was gone for around half an hour, about 2:40 to 3:10 PM Central, and I got hammered with barely any in-between anyway.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

Wouldn’t make a difference if we did. He’s been hammered. Can’t take that back.


2:13


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aydvfej6pZE

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

should be* obstinate. Although I suppose obstinate sounds like a verb too.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

I think Thoth is probably telling the truth, but his attempts to keep from providing his claim by hinting at it ended up only being confusing.

But do you get why I felt that I should obstinate about full-claiming? I figured that knowing there was an Apportioner could give scum opportunities to concoct bullshit about what happened last night. I did not have any specific scenarios in mind, but I thought about it and seemed like something I should reveal when it could let town infer something important.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

Hey, now that’s a believable justification.

It's also not the justification in my role PM, at least not as I understood it as a non-Alien fan.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

Unfortunately. this entire sh*t show of a dayphase due to misreading of role PMs and flavor.

I think I've said as much about my role PM as I can without treading the line of copy-pasting from mod chat. When my role card flips tomorrow, I think you will understand why I ascertained what I did from it.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

No more answers from me this twilight. I get the sense that y'all still think I'm scum and claimed Apportioner to screw with your night actions somehow. You'll believe me tomorrow, whatever.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

A Facehuggers doesn’t goes against Xenomorphs

In the context of my role PM's flavor, yes it does.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

But we don't know they're scum, and Kohai isn't claiming to be "adult" xenomorphs, just xenomorphs. And would Lunatic really give you a clue to the theme split like that?

I'm thinking that scum are two specific adult Xenomorphs. You mentioned earlier that there are individual Xenomorphs that could plausibly be characters. Then there could also be Xenomorphs that are town.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

In addition to how does it work against xenomorphs, how does it implicate Kohai?

Does this really need explaining? My role ability is delaying the night-kill. The flavor implies that an adult Xenomorph is performing the night kill. Therefore, an adult Xenomorph is likely scum.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

How tf does this work against xenomorphs?

If adult Xenomorphs are scum, the flavor is that I'm stopping the night-kill.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

Also, that Mafia Universe page says the ability is lost once it's extended someone's life, but my role card says nothing about that. It's irrelevant now since I'm dead.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

I'm allowed to reveal? Yeah, okay then. I'm the Apportioner. Justification is that I can impregnate someone with an embryo, and an (adult?) Xenomorph will leave them alone until the "pregnancy" ends.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

Youre not in a position to negotiate. Your justification also makes zero sense. So claim

No.

Thoth

Alien Mafia DP1

Thoth · a year ago

Also, does it specify the adult stage in the Xenomorph life cycle? That would not contradict Facehugger being in the game, any more than having Squirtle means you can’t have Blastoise (I know how to reach late millennials and early zoomers.)