They could have a 2x Ninja, or they had a 1x Ninja and they simply NK'd Vader the first night, so I saw nothing when I watched whiteflame. Not sure. And there's precedent for Rex putting two of the same role in a game.
Ugh. I have no idea which of you it is. I feel like we're just chewing over the same stuff over and over.
Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/30/2026 at 8:27 PM (post #186)
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 6:42 PM (post #174)
Rex obviously didn't give us a Rolestopper and a Roleblocker. Well, obvious from my pov, anyway. That's too much negative utility potential for town. Both roles are already swingy; you could roleblock a townie or you could rolestop scum. But even the positive utility potential of Roleblocker is mitigated if a Rolestopper targets scum as well.
Setups can be swingy. I don't see how you can say that a Tracker and Watcher are both in the game as town and then say Roleblocker/Rolestopper is impossible. They even serve to balance the possible extra death from the Lovers by making their death(s) less likely.
This is a 180 from DP2 when you agreed that a Rolestopper and Roleblocker was excessive.
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 8:14 PM (post #183)
so just gonna ignore balance and think about claims now. one of the main things i was scumming thoth for is now gone, bcuz i thot it was wierd that there was a role with 2 one shots abilities in a game with a bunch of odd/evens, but ruyi zhuan had the exact same thing. so i guess that means nothing since we can look at that game. now im kind of stuck on the two watchers thing again. like even without wylteds watcher theres a lot of investigative roles and now we have a second watcher on top of a tracker cop. like part of me wants to think that 'wryly wouldnt do that as scum' but the more i think about that its kind of a weak reason to give her a pass bcuz they could have just banked on wylted not dying. only thing tripping me up is what wylteds plan was with his result on thoth dp2. theres a chance that thoth actually just caught him in a lie and it foiled there whole plan. whats wierd is wryly claimed watcher AFTER that happened. so i dont know what her play was if she was scum here, unless she was really hoping we either wouldnt ever lynch wylted, or that we would buy a second watcher even if we did lynch him. or maybe she was just hoping to get confirmation with a result of wylteds like we originally thot, and was hoping to buy town cred from me since she was the first to claim odd/even after i did.
hmmm
But wylted was like, very very probably going to be lynched after he straight claimed DP1. I don't get this.
He likes Mirrors also, apparently.
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 8:00 PM (post #177)
hmm... mikal was a 1x rolestopper in ruyi zhuan, with mago being an odd night roleblocker. that game also had a doctor/commuter in it... wow also had a town an odd tracker and even watcher in it. i think my thots on balance are going out the window a bit now...
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/endgames/posts/2q/ruyi-zhuan-mafia-endgame
Holy sheet
I wonder if I'm leaning Thoth just because he's sussing me and I have more activity to go on with him, so it feels intuitively more "right." That would be bad, because those are just cognitive biases at work. I've mislynched Thoth before. My judgment on him is proven to be off.
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 7:47 PM (post #175)
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 5:42 PM (post #174)
Rex obviously didn't give us a Rolestopper and a Roleblocker. Well, obvious from my pov, anyway. That's too much negative utility potential for town. Both roles are already swingy; you could roleblock a townie or you could rolestop scum. But even the positive utility potential of Roleblocker is mitigated if a Rolestopper targets scum as well.
like i said b4 there is balance issues there but no more than there is with 2 watchers an every night tracker and an even cop.
i don’t see how the two role prevention abilities is a bigger problem that 4 investigation abilities, or even if 4 investigations would be considered worse balance. or if an argument could be made that the two role blocking abilities balances out 4 investigations. Theres some wierd balance going on regardless here
Well that's true, but with a Hated and Lovers in the game there's already a ton of negative utility for town. Hated gives scum the potential for a free lynch. Lovers give scum a two-for-one. Plus Roleblockers and a Rolestopper?
Rex obviously didn't give us a Rolestopper and a Roleblocker. Well, obvious from my pov, anyway. That's too much negative utility potential for town. Both roles are already swingy; you could roleblock a townie or you could rolestop scum. But even the positive utility potential of Roleblocker is mitigated if a Rolestopper targets scum as well.
Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/30/2026 at 7:21 PM (post #167)
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 6:14 PM (post #162)
bcuz ur the only other claimed role that could result in an action failed, on a night when my action failed but u claim to have commuted.
So you are suggesting that I Commuted and you were redirected? Wouldn't that mean Wryly has to have an unclaimed redirect?
If you're scum then you likely didn't commute, so I think the argument is that you used a role which produced her "action failed."
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 7:17 PM (post #166)
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 5:16 PM (post #164)
I'm here. Made a quick dinner.
wheres ur head at right now?
I'm still leaning Thoth. I just don't get his explanation for his VTNL of wylted. He said he was ready to vote, we had him, and then he escapes the noose and we lose another townie. You being blocked and him claiming a blocking role isn't a great look, though there could be other explanations for that. I remember in Ranger's Apprentice mafia he and Mag1c had a tense scumchat; I can't imagine him and wylted together would be much better. I feel iffy about this because you and Mikal weren't very active and I don't have a huge body of evidence to go off of, but my gut is saying you're town based on what I've seen in this DP.
I'm here. Made a quick dinner.
I have to make Gran dinner and then I'm on.
^
Why did you switch from Mikal to Lunatic DP1?
I wonder if scum!Thoth would really say he sees wylted as almost an Innocent Child on DP1. Scum don't normally townread each other that hard, though he did immediately walk it back the next DP.
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 12:01 PM (post #143)
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/7t/candace-owens-cinematic-universe-dp4?comment_number=104
So his protective could only have mitigated the damage. Can you ask how your role would interact with his? Like what happens if you roleblock someone and he rolestops the same target?
Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/29/2026 at 9:58 PM (post #109)
Re: the VTNL thing. Yes, my logic was to extend the game by a DP to get more investigative results. That should go without saying. Now that I think about it, it probably would have been wiser to lynch wylted immediately and VTNL later. My VTNL/Commuter play was too risky. But I did it.
But why is that remotely worth it? Why would you let a scum live just to *maybe* get a few more investigative results on the chance that you *might* stop the NK? This is the datum I keep returning to the most with you. This seems so blatantly anti-town that it almost tips the scales back into "must be town" territory. In fact, that's how Pie seemed to read it at the time.
Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/30/2026 at 12:11 AM (post #118)
Banana's analysis today has been good, in my opinion. There's just not much context from previous day phases to put it in.
I'm very sus of Wryly because of her claim's overlap with wylted's JOAT and because her interactions with wylted come off as theatrical to me. I think the WIFOM of why Wryly and wylted did or didn't do certain things, like in post #86, can be explained by a dysfunctional scum team.
Although, now that I think about it, Banana's claim is really fucking scummy and could just be her straight-claiming. Not sure I buy her claim as town more than Wryly overlapping with wylted, though.
It's definitely unusual. Overlapping roles made more sense in the Ruyi Zhuan game imo; there were more players and tiers of abilities. I'd rather lose because of the setup than because of playing badly, so if this tips your vote I'll be at peace with it. If it happens it happens. As for theatrics, shrug. The joke fallout legitimately irritated me and I tried to diffuse it with humor too much I guess. Can see looking back how it might look scummy. When wylted first CC'd me I figured he was probably town because scum have no reason to do that, so I was irritated that an innocent joke led to the outing of the MC and a PR. Then it just led to more and more distraction that scum could use -- Vader thought I was trying to bait a townie out because of it, I thought Lunatic wasted a Cop on me for it, you were wondering if I was wylted's scummate because of it. Like imagine if you'd said you were Banana's shift key and a perma-commuter and it led to a CC and being scumread. Idk, just got under my skin.
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 11:50 AM (post #141)
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 9:42 AM (post #140)
What does the setup look like if either of your roles are fake? Without a Rolestopper and Commuter, we're down two protectives. That leaves an every night Doctor and an even night Roleblocker for protection. Is that enough for a 9p with Lovers in it? The Doctor is one of the Lovers, so if he or his Lover is wiped out you lose your Doctor immediately, and you've got only a Roleblocker left for protection, which could hurt as much as help.
well i explored this a bit with thoth, and im not really seeing a ton of "protective" utlty with his role. he said rex said he cant protect both lovers with the role stop, and the commuter only works as a protect if he was able to bait scum into killing him, which he claims he was confident he would do, but it seems shakey to me that scum would have bought that personally. coming down to it, i would say a roleblock has a better chance at stopping a kill then his role does in most cases. regardless the three protectives provids jus as much a problem as the FOUR investigatives lol
Meanwhile if we're down a Strengthener and Roleblocker, we still have Thoth's protectives to make up for our Lovers liability, but we have no counter to wylted's Mirror and whatever interference abilities the other scum may have. Hmm.
i dont think town would need a counter to a 1x mirror. how would u even design to counter that anyway?
I'm not necessarily saying there are too many protectives, I'm just trying to look at if the game is more or less balanced without either you or Thoth's roles being real. And I'm doing that because I'm grasping at mechanical straws lol. Mechanics wise I have jack shit to recommend either of you, and weighing wifom sucks.
I assume Strengthener would work against a Mirror. Like if you had strengthened me and I had watched wylted on a night he mirrored, instead of watching myself I would have successfully watched him, right?
Mikal claimed Mason, which he actually was, in Stereotype mafia. In Alien mafia he straight claimed Engineers but fake claimed Developer; he was actually a JOAT. Hmm.
What does the setup look like if either of your roles are fake? Without a Rolestopper and Commuter, we're down two protectives. That leaves an every night Doctor and an even night Roleblocker for protection. Is that enough for a 9p with Lovers in it? The Doctor is one of the Lovers, so if he or his Lover is wiped out you lose your Doctor immediately, and you've got only a Roleblocker left for protection, which could hurt as much as help.
Meanwhile if we're down a Strengthener and Roleblocker, we still have Thoth's protectives to make up for our Lovers liability, but we have no counter to wylted's Mirror and whatever interference abilities the other scum may have. Hmm.
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/30/2026 at 11:37 AM (post #137)
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 9:33 AM (post #135)
Mikal comes straight out the gate claiming one of his roles sounds scummy, so if he was scum, he'd nailed down a fake claim already or was given one by Rex. Would Rex give a Roleblocker/Strengthener fake claim? Doesn't seem like a great fake claim to give your scum players. Sounds pretty sus. If Banana is scum, does that mean scum were given no fake claims and only one character claim, Netanyahu? Her justification for her roles sounded good when I first read them. I need a look back.
well as u point out mikal said his role was scummy so u just have to ask urself if u think someone like him would do that as scum, or if he could come up with something good
I'll look up some of Mikal's previous scum games. But in general I would say good-sounding fake claims are better than "so bad they must be real" fake claim gambits.
Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/30/2026 at 11:33 AM (post #135)
Mikal comes straight out the gate claiming one of his roles sounds scummy, so if he was scum, he'd nailed down a fake claim already or was given one by Rex. Would Rex give a Roleblocker/Strengthener fake claim? Doesn't seem like a great fake claim to give your scum players. Sounds pretty sus. If Banana is scum, does that mean scum were given no fake claims and only one character claim, Netanyahu? Her justification for her roles sounded good when I first read them. I need a look back.
*no fake role claims
Looking back at DP2. In a scum!Thoth world, I have to wonder if Thoth just knew immediately after wylted claimed Candace that he would be found out eventually and tried to get ahead of it -- claim his Rolestopper contradicts wylted's results, be the first to point out Candace broke the pattern of the rest of the character claims. Erika Kirk would have to be a fake claim given by Rex, because after looking up her and Candace, I would expect her to be in the game. Rolestopper is a fake role claim that sounds more plausibly provided by Rex, and 1x Commuter could just be a power he actually has.
Mikal comes straight out the gate claiming one of his roles sounds scummy, so if he was scum, he'd nailed down a fake claim already or was given one by Rex. Would Rex give a Roleblocker/Strengthener fake claim? Doesn't seem like a great fake claim to give your scum players. Sounds pretty sus. If Banana is scum, does that mean scum were given no fake claims and only one character claim, Netanyahu? Her justification for her roles sounded good when I first read them. I need a look back.
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/29/2026 at 11:12 PM (post #114)
i know wryly is busy with her gran so i understand her distance this phase but it feels like both her and Thoth are just not really in this last dp. Thoth was like this the whole game but wryly was actively complaining about activity for most of the game just to kind of… not be here so idk what to make of that or if im over thinking it.
starting to question town reading her. this is lylo and there’s no sense of urgency whatsoever
It's not just my gran. The caregiver of the elderly couple next door is in the hospital and I'm taking care of them plus Gran. So I took on responsibility for their meds, their insulin pump, their diaper changes, their pets, their garden, their bills. If I had known this would happen I would never have joined this game, and I probably won't be joining another for some time.
I agree, but I haven't eaten today and I'm just beat. Sorry guys. I'll have to get back on later.
Originally Posted by Banana on 7/29/2026 at 12:13 PM (post #89)
if there was a gun to ur head and u were forced to make a decision right now who u think the last scum is who would it be? i know a lot can change in a day and a half, but im curious what ur headspace is in. ive been pretty transparent with mine
I think I'd just say pull the trigger.
Lol. Dark, sorry. I'm really tired.
Gun to my head it would probably be Thoth. The more I think about it, I just can't shake the notion that if you were scum you would've just said that you strengthened me and thus my negative result on Pie must be a lie. I feel like that would be more than enough to get me lynched here. I don't know why they weren't worried about your Strengthener but it could be some unknowable turn of scumchat, idk. Also behaviorally you're coming across pretty townie to me this DP. And I actually didn't even see Thoth's VTNL on DP2 lol. I thought he was just inactive. I should probably think about this more, my reasoning may be too wifom-y. But that's where I'm leaning rn.