whiteflame

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 10:10 AM (post #140)

The text chain is too long for me to even remember what you are talking about anymore, but speaking of things we don't like, I don't like how your buying into kohais bull shit.

Noted.

When I was the only one pushing thoth dp3 and was the first to cast a vote, I'd say thats more than "little choice". All I had to do was nudge in literally any direction for a win there. Make it make sense to me how lynching thoth was the only option lol. Anyways, I did follow up. I spent my N2 check on him. Chasing a dodge in thread gets you nothing from a player who’s barely there. A check gets you an answer. I took the answer.

I just plain disagree that you were the only one pushing Thoth. There was a long stretch when Helz was pushing for consideration between the three of us, but everyone basically agreed he was scum pretty early in the DP. The decision to fake the Blackmail was part of it, so was your result.

And I meant following up in the DP. Again, I'll point out that he was active, and that you recognized his response as a dodge. You can justify waiting all you want, I'm just calling it as I see it.

You've consistently sided with kohai the entire day phase, he's got you hook line and sinker. I am actually pretty impressed with him for being able to pull one over on you.

That's just flagrantly false. I've called out several issues I've seen with his behavior over the course of the game.

It's more of a counter point, since the only way I can be scum is repeated insistance that I am bussing, however when I try to point out distancing on the other side you want to downplay it as a joke. Sure it is a joke, I get that. It's just interesting that the same bullshit rules being applied to me aren't being applied to kohai.

You'll note that I'm not pointing to individual posts from you and arguing that they demonstrate a pattern. I'm pointing to a number of choices you've made and putting them in context. Pointing to a single joke post and saying that that post indicates distancing is not the same.

Thoth pointing it out like that seems more to me like Thoth probably got on kohais ass in the mafia pm for mentioning the vanillizer and wanted to be the first to call attention to it so he could get ahead of it.

Possible, sure.

Here’s the step I’m pointing at. Kohai’s first DP2 vote was to follow Mag1c onto Helz, right after Mag1c said he’d been blackmailed. Following a silenced player’s vote only makes sense if you believe him. When you asked why, it was “I’ll explain when I get home,” and the explanation was POE plus Helz asking Mag for a character claim. Then he unvoted, voted Mag1c with “I don’t believe vanillaizer and blackmailer exist,” unvoted again over paranoia, and finally put Mag1c at L1. So yes, I’m saying he never gave his own reason for the flip. He went from trusting the blackmail enough to follow the vote to calling it fake, and the reasoning in between was the balance argument you and Helz made, not anything he brought himself. He was on both sides of that 1v1 and ended up on the one that lynched a townie. That’s the chain...

Alright, I'll read back through the transition to see if you have a point there. If you want to save me some time, ISO the posts between the reasoning for the VTL on Helz and the L-1 vote.

You’re right that I didn’t know Helz was Soldier when I claimed, but it doesn’t change anything. Five alive, two scum. Any town lynch DP3, vanilla or not, makes it 2v2 and the game is over. Helz, you, it didn’t matter. I didn’t need to know his role to win, I just needed one guilty.

So, again, the issue is whether I think you were pocketing Helz for this final DP or trying to win things last DP. If it's the latter, yeah, it changes nothing. If it's the former, it changes everything.

If you were scum, you may have been banking on leaving Helz alive going into this DP. If he was VT, you could basically count on his vote. He definitely would have lynched me or Kohai, so you would've had no problem with that. The moment he claimed Soldier, that would have become a problem because his survival would have guaranteed a town win.

I mean I have given you a guilty result and our only scum lynch, and it's being dismissed. The best thing you have is presumed game balance issues, when we already mislynched magic over that same thing. Some loose issues with my character I guess. Idk it feels pretty obvious to me, and maybe I am biased being the townie on the other end of the wagon, but I really don't see how you aren't seeing kohai here.

I haven't dismissed the guilty result, I'm just putting that result in the context of the DP and expressed susses at the time. It's a point in your favor, I've said that multiple times.

Game balance issues exist regardless of which of you is scum. A Popular Blackmailer with a possible Lawyer is a lot to include in this game, even with a full fledged Cop. Similarly, having a Blackmailer and a JOAT with a Vanillaizer is a lot without a Cop. I don't love the setup regardless.

It's pretty fucked to say I am inactive when I am literally asleep. Almost every time before I go to bed I publicly announce it and always say I will be back on to post in the evenings. But when I was back I doubled down on Thoth. If I’m scum, coming back to that conversation and steering it toward my partner is the last thing I do.

Why is it fucked up to notice that the timing of your absence coincided with the one period where your pushing for the Thoth lynch would have looked most townie? Again, my point is that attention had already steered back towards Thoth when you came back. It was not a guarantee, and I'll give you some credit for helping refocus, but you're expecting me to give you a lot more credit than I feel is warranted.

WF, I disagree with the premise. I didn’t let it drop. I followed up in the way that actually mattered. I put Thoth on the spot in #254. After he claimed Giuffre I called it out in DP2 #391, said he remained one of my biggest suspects, and that his outlier claim made it worse. Then I spent my N2 check on him. That’s three separate follow ups, ending in a guilty. “Didn’t follow up once” just isn’t what happened. And you’re judging me like a vanilla townie who has nothing but the thread. I’m the cop. A cop doesn’t need to win a thread argument with the guy he’s about to check, and he definitely shouldn’t hard tunnel him. That paints a target on his back for the NK and tells scum exactly where the check is going. Every experienced player knows that. I kept my head down on purpose, I wasn’t killed N1 or N2, and I came out with a guilty on the actual scum. You’re calling it a “threadbare excuse not to engage.” I’m calling it doing my job correctly. The result is sitting right there in Thoth’s flip.

I'll repeat: I didn't see a follow up to your post #254 in the DP, and yeah, that seems odd when he was active at the time. I've already shown in my ISO of your behavior that, yes, you did call out his claim. Yes, you did maintain a sus on him. Yes, you did use your N2 check on him. That's not nothing. I just don't like the justification that your lack of follow-up on those questions in the DP was because Thoth tends to be absent when he was there, yet you keep saying it over and over again. And now you're adding another justification, saying that if you'd continued to put attention on Thoth, you'd have put a target on your back, which I don't think was obvious. I'm judging you based on something I think you're being overly defensive about. I'm not judging you as though you were a VT. I'm not ignoring other behaviors. The fact that we're still doing this back-and-forth means I haven't made my decision yet.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 8:00 AM (post #132)

Sorry, didn't respond to this.

WF, I want to talk to you directly before you make this call, because it’s all on you now. I’ve been the cop this entire game. Every result I gave came back exactly right. Helz town. Thoth scum. You town. You know that last one is true better than anyone. I did my job, I found a scum, I handed him to you, and I cleared you when Kohai spent the whole game trying to get you lynched.

Setting aside the Helz and Thoth calls, both of which I agree are right and we've already discussed at some length, the decision on me was obvious. If you are scum, you'd have known that your partner would flip and the Vanillaizer would be revealed. If you are town, I understand still being wary of me and wanting to get a read.

And I don't want to lose this game because you’re too paranoid to trust your own cop.

I get why. I’ve bussed before, I’ve faked cop before (twice in a row would be just insane), you know my scum game. But think about what you’re actually accusing me of. I could have won yesterday with one fake guilty. On Helz, on you, on anyone. Kohai was already on you. Helz was already leaning you. Thoth and I had two votes sitting right there. Instead I threw away a guaranteed win, handed you my “partner,” and walked us into a coin flip where you decide everything? Nobody does that. Not me, not anyone. There’s no big reward on the other side of that risk. There’s just losing. Look at who Kohai has been all game. Townread Thoth DP2. Wanted you dead since DP1. Put town Mag1c at L1. Named the Vanillizer on day one. And right now he’s not even arguing results, he’s arguing my meta from other games, because the results in this one don’t work for him. If you vote me and I flip town, every single thing I did this game was real and we lost because we couldn’t trust it. Please don’t let that be how this ends. Trust the results. Vote Kohai.

I think the paranoia's earned. It's not based even largely on previous games, and I recognize that it requires you to have been selected as scum 4 times in a row and that you'd fake claim Cop twice in a row. That is not lost on me. I am, however, not just considering your results. I've brought up a lot of other issues that go beyond those, as well as beyond your history.

Frankly, I'm not convinced that a fake red check on Helz, me or Kohai would have automatically converted into a lynch, though I can see your point that that could have led to a win. Helz and Kohai certainly were prepared to VTL me at several points, though neither did. And that's part of the reason I don't like this argument that you "had two votes sitting right there" - there was never a third vote on any of the three of us throughout the DP, so yes, if you were scum, you would have just had to sit on your hands and wait for an opportunity. Insofar as I think you had the opportunity, I agree that you did and that you probably could have gotten a lynch off on either me or Kohai if you were scum. You would have had to go all in on that at the start of the DP, but yes, that would have made more sense. Helz thought that, too.

Taking a break for now. I'll check back in a little later.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 9:28 AM (post #135)

The problem is you have to jump through hoops and what if scenarios to reach a conclusion I am scum here, instead of the liklier possibility I am just town lol

I have to jump through hoops and what if scenarios for both of you. I've already explained what several of those are for Kohai.

I was literally the one most resistant to the idea of lynching outside of the 1 v 1 with me and thoth lol. I understood his idea there and everything but was really hoping you would just help me lynch thoth, and I am glad we did. It's unfortunate that past bussing adventures is having you second guess me and my results this much.

Dude, you were absent for a long stretch that last DP. When the conversation came up about lynching among the three of us (me, Kohai and Helz) you were nowhere to be seen for a while, and it wasn't until we started revisiting the possibility of lynching between the two of you that you showed up again and doubled down on the 1v1. Your absence is not a reason to sus you, but it was notable during a time when attention was largely off you and Thoth, so I'm not giving you much credit for that.

I dis-agree entirely, I never let up pressure on Thoth. There's only so much water you can get from a stone. Thoth is notoriously AFK and its a habit I am used to across multiple games. Sure, if we have the time to spare, I'd happily make you guys hold off on a lynch and help me apply pressure to him. But in the meantime, we were losing valuable game time and I had agreed with the consensus about the vanillizer and blackmail dilemma, so I wasn't prepared to stall out the day phase waiting for thoth to get his shit together.

Adjustment noted and added to the above.

I don't like that, after one attempt to get him to respond to your question and telling me now that he dodged it, you let the issue drop. Telling me over and over that there was no chance of getting anything from Thoth, who was active at the time (notoriously AFK or no, he was there), just doesn't sound like you. And it's responses like this that keep getting under my skin because they read like really threadbare excuses not to engage with someone you viewed as very scummy. Again, it's not that I think you should have stalled out the DP, it's that you didn't even follow up once beyond just saying you still sussed him.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 12:42 AM (post #113)

Both posts you're referencing basically amount to "my being confirmed Popular should be NAI." Neither of them suggest he's seen a game where a Popular player has an active role to boot, so no, I don't believe he answered that himself on day 1. He's continued to suggest he's never seen it before, though I have made a game where scum had a player like that and I posted the link for it.

I mean I made the same point, the irony isn't lost on me that I am now the one having to argue that same point.

Yeah, I think we all agree that it is unusual to have a Popular scum with an active role. As someone who has used one of those before, it's pretty rare. I don't like that you were taking two posts from Kohai's DP1 that clearly had one meaning and ascribing a different meaning to them.

As in any game, I don't think sussing me is a scum tell, regardless of how townie I think I'm being. I don't really get considering pairings in DP1, but we were all basing our reads on threadbare information then. And in DP3, especially with the focus on me, Kohai and Helz and the belief that we should lynch in that pool, I get it. I mechanically had a whole lot less going for me than Helz did, so POE was enough to consider me the obvious choice, and for a lot of the DP, we'd all written off a pairing between you and Thoth. It could be sus, just not obviously so.

You have to look at the motives behind his pushes though, its not just about being suspicious of you. When you can actively dismiss every push I make on the one scum we have caught as "bussing" and give him a pass on every wrong push he's made, I don't know what to tell you anymore.

I'm not dismissing your pushes as bussing. Whether you're scum or town, I believe you had little choice but to push Thoth in DP3. And I'll give you some credit that you indicated that choice by the end of DP1 and all over DP2, showing that you had reason to sus Thoth. It does make the decision to investigate Helz first feel a little more surprising in retrospect, but you clearly had a target of suspicion, even if you weren't willing to pressure them during DP2.

As for Kohai's motives, yeah, he could have just been pushing to get mislynches. I'm saying I understand his thinking well enough that that isn't the only plausible explanation for why he voted/sussed the way he did. I'm not "giv[ing] him a pass on every wrong push he's made," I'm explaining why the justification for those choices isn't automatically sus to me.

I went back and re-read that exchange. He was literally responding to Thoth saying "It is never okay to VTL me, and I do not grant you permission to ever do so." So, yeah, it was a response to a bit of absurdity from Thoth. I was sussing it, but closer inspection says it's NAI. I agree, the decision to townread Thoth early in DP2 was odd. I disagree that his voting Thoth based on the belief that a) your Cop result was accurate and b) the second Blackmail couldn't be real is sus. I think he had a reasonable basis for the vote and it solidified a position he was slowly building through DP2. And yes, just like you, he was reticent to vote for Thoth in DP2, focusing on the 1v1 between me and Mag1c. Not really sussing either of you for that.

Even with all the excuses you are making for kohai, a joke vote on your own partner is the cheapest distancing there is. Thoth giving him the setup line doesn’t make it NAI.

See, Luna, this kind of sus is just beyond me. Thoth was clearly setting himself up to get a response like Kohai's. Kohai gave it and then rescinded it. If anyone saw that as a reason to unpair the two of them, that's beyond me, so if this is "the cheapest distancing there is," then it's also the weakest and it didn't work. I get that you want to build as complete of a case against him as possible and that you have every reason to sus him, but read this from my perspective. Why is this automatically a sus exchange? I don't see it.

Covered this before, but he a) brought it up in a previous game without a Vanillaizer, b) had no incentive to out his partner's role, and c) would have to have been called out by his own partner for TMI. It's odd, I'll give you that, but the decision doesn't make logical sense for him. I'd expect Kohai from like a year ago to make that kind of error and draw attention to himself, but I've seen Kohai improve a great deal and I don't think he's likely to do it now. Off chance, but not an obvious sus.

Out of every role that exists, he named the one scum had, on DP1, unprompted. Thoth flagged it as TMI. Mentioning it in an old game doesn’t make it random here.

So, again, you're saying he actively called out a role his own partner had and then got called out by that partner for TMI? If so, that's some weird distancing play, man.

I just don't get this. So Mag1c voted Helz. Kohai voted Helz with him. There was a "fight," which basically amounted to a question about whether there could be both a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer (again, the 1v1 we've been talking about a good deal, which involved everyone), so... Kohai is to blame for Mag1c's lynch? What am I missing? Feels like an Underpants Gnomes situation where a step is missing.

Step by step: scum silence Mag1c so he can’t defend himself or explain his reads. His only action is a vote on Helz. Kohai jumps on it before any reasoning exists. That makes Mag1c look like he’s pushing without a case, the WF/Mag1c balance question gets framed around him, and Kohai puts him at L1. That’s the missing step.

I'm... still not seeing it. So Kohai jumping on the same vote with Mag1c without his own reasoning was the problem? Or was it that Kohai put him at L-1? Because Kohai didn't even start the 1v1 conversation between me and Mag1c. Like, I get it, it was a little off for him to sheep Mag1c's vote without much explanation and then turn around and vote against him, but there was a lot of discussion between those two points. Are you saying he didn't provide adequate reasoning for the shift in perspective?

Was wondering when this would come up and from whom. Yeah, the Soldier claim was a pretty big deal. I got the impression that Helz was very clear-eyed about making it. He knew he'd pretty much have to be the NK, regardless of who was scum. Assuming Kohai's scum, you're absolutely right, he couldn't kill you. That would have given town another route to victory since he could have just lynched me and been done with it. But a similar dynamic is true for you. If you're scum, then your fake green check on Helz effectively makes it impossible to lynch him in a three-way fight between you, him and either me or Kohai. And it wouldn't matter if Kohai or I was lynched, since Helz would've soloed the win.

So you're right. Killing Helz was the only move Kohai could make if he was scum. What you've left out is that killing Helz was also the only move you could make if you were scum.

It wasn’t symmetrical. If I’m scum, I never need the night kill on Helz, because I could have lynched him DP3 with a single fake guilty. The only person who needed Helz dead at night was the scum who couldn’t control a cop result. That’s Kohai. My results are 3 for 3, and the only way they’re fake is if I threw away three separate guaranteed wins to set up a coin flip.

I initially thought I missed something after reading this, but looking back, it seems like your framing is what's missing something. Let's look at the timeline:

Helz claimed in post 44 in DP3. You claimed in post 20 in DP3. So, no, regardless of your alignment, you didn't know what Helz was at that point.

So yes, if you were scum and you knew what Helz was before you claimed, you might have gone all in on the push against him. Absent that, you believed he was just VT, which is what he claimed he would be if he wasn't the PGO. I'll fully admit you had the opportunity to push to get him lynched regardless, but the value of that lynch for scum would have changed after he claimed.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 12:28 AM (post #112)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 9:16 PM (post #107)

I am usually reserved with my votes, I describe myself as an intentional voter. On that end, I don't think there's a point to voting thoth at this point in the day phase if the vote won't accomplish much, and I was in general agreement about the vanillize/blackmailer dynamic. Even knowing he is scum now for sure, I don't know that in hind sight trying to steer the game in that direction makes the most sense with the information we had and at the point in the game we were at, and the limited activity from thoth. I explored him in later rounds and that should be enough.

As someone who is pretty reserved with voting myself, I get it, but I do also recognize that you're trying to gain some steam off of sussing Thoth when you were clearly unwilling to push him based on your sus. Wouldn't be a first for you to break with others in the DP, though I'll grant you that the 1v1 that was being setup at the time was really drawing enough attention that it likely wouldn't have gone anywhere. Maybe you could see the writing on the wall for that push at the time. Again, though, I don't really like that you keep pointing to Thoth's lack of activity as an excuse. Thoth was absent over a good deal of the DP, sure, but there are substantial overlaps in your activity and his during DP2, overlaps when he was present and posting for over an hour in the early morning (particularly true on the day the lynch went through). I don't buy that he just was too inactive to consider because you didn't expect to receive responses. I know he's ghosted us before, but I don't buy that here.

WF, I’m going to stand on all of it, and I want to add something that I think settles the “you’d know the results anyway” point.

If I’m a fake cop, I pick my results. I could have said Helz guilty, and town lynches the Soldier DP3. Game over, scum win. I could have said WF guilty, and Kohai was already “almost certain it’s wf.” Game over. Any fake guilty on any townie wins on the spot. Instead I “chose” an innocent on the Soldier and a guilty on my own partner. Scum knowing the results doesn’t help your case, it kills it. A scum cop with free choice of results never hands town his partner when every other guilty wins. Thoth: “overlaps in activity” isn’t engagement. When he did show up in DP2 he told us he was “only on page 5 reading up” and was talking balance theory. I put him on the spot in #254, he dodged with “Mag1c is my choice of scum,” and the entire town agreed the day was WF vs Mag1c. I’m not apologizing for not splitting votes off the consensus question.

I've fully admitted the Cop guilty on Thoth is the major point that's helping your case. The argument that you could have gotten Helz or me lynched is fair, I think that was plausible. However, I don't like the way you're framing this as though it was a given. Helz himself pointed out that you'd been defending him a bit in DP2 after sussing him a bit in DP1. Coming out of left field and saying that you got a red check on him in DP2 would have at least drawn some uncertainty. A red check on me would have made more sense, though you may also have just decided that it was unlikely town would lynch DJT if push came to shove. And with Thoth a very likely lynch going into the last DP - dude still hadn't claimed his role, so scum were clearly scrambling with that fake Blackmailed play - I could see wanting to put as sharp a divide between you two as possible.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that these are the likeliest scenarios. I think you'd take advantage of the opportunity and try to get a mislynch first and foremost. I'm just saying I have reason to doubt that there is absolutely no scenario where you would make this choice. There's a logic to it, even if that logic requires me to buy that you just didn't trust getting the lynch off on either me or Helz.

And yes, the lack of engagement with you from Thoth was noted. I didn't see much frustration from you with that or attempts to draw attention back to the questions you'd asked him, so while I agree he could be obstinate, I didn't see much effort to break down that wall. Not voting him is one thing, letting him get away with a weak response that you say now is a dodge is another.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 12:20 AM (post #110)

I'm about to go to sleep. Gonna make my final points

Regarding Luna's case:

1) Why would I "slip" the existence of a vanillaizer?

I don't think you'd have much reason to hint at the existence of a Vanillaizer if you had one on your scum team, no. It's an odd choice on your part, but not one I'd consider particularly scummy. Wouldn't call it a town tell, either, though.

2) I've shown in multiple previous games that roles like this is what I'm always thinking about especially when I have a role that is confirmable.

Kind of get this, but doesn't really tell me anything about this game.

3) Blackmail chain: I had thought that there was scum between helz / mag1c for reasons I stated earlier in the game. In the end we were forced to lynch mag1c

I'll come back to this because it looks like Luna expanded on the point.

My case:

1) I encourage you to review again the interacitons between luan / thoth. Both sussed each other but never voted or hard pushed each other. Luna had multiple opporunities to vote thoth / wagon him day 1. He chose to keep his vote on shining.

I'll go back through them, but it sounds like we basically agree based on what you've written here about what happened. I also don't view that as particularly scummy (literally everyone had a reason to sus Shining based on his lack of interaction), but Luna does seem to be trying to use their susses as an indication of distance that I'm just not seeing.

2) Mech:

Why would Hawking be in the game but Clinton not? Luna himself admitted that Clinton is likely to be in the game. Why would I, as scum, risk asking about a character that's high probability to be in the game?

The theory would be that you lucked out asking about Clinton. There are more than enough people involved with Epstein that, at least I would argue, Clinton was never guaranteed to be in this game, even though he's a very big fish. The confusion I'm having is why Luna would draw attention to the obviousness of Clinton being in this game and then flip around and say he must not be here. From Luna's perspective, I get that you have to be scum. There's no other choice. It's just weird to call out how Clinton is both the likeliest pick for Savant/Pie to be here, and then say he's also a likely choice for a scum team to ask about.

Does cop and the stated justification actually fit with Stephen Hawking? Compare his justification "I have one of the greatest minds in history, and nothing escapes my analysis" and compare that with justifications that have flipped.

Vaguely, yes. I have said it felt off, but it's not impossible. Here are the justifications so far:

Bill Gates: Because of your work improving global health, you are the 2x Doctor, which is also the name of a game you may have played with children on Epstein’s Island

Michael Jackson: Because you are widely known for your music, you are the Singer

Dean Kamen: In addition to being named hundreds of times in the Epstein Files, you invented the Segway and hold over 1,000 patents. Therefore, you are the Inventor.

David Copperfield: Because you rely on misdirection to deceive the audience and shift their attention away from your connections with Epstein, you are the 2x Redirector.

Ehud Barak: you served dutifully for 36 years in the Israel Defense Forces, so it is unlikely you would ever harm a child. Fittingly, you are the Soldier.

Those aren't very vague. Some of them are a little on the nose (Michael Jackson, Ehud Barak, Dean Kamen), and others more utilize what the characters are known for as a basis for a role (Bill Gates, David Copperfield).

By contrast, I'd argue that both of yours are pretty vague.

Stephen Hawking is a Cop because he's "one the greatest minds in history, and nothing escapes [his] analysis." It lines up with some kind of insightful role, sure, but with Cop specifically? I'd say not.

Bill Clinton is Popular because he "remained high approval ratings even after the Monica scandal." Sure, that's historically accurate, it's just a weird pull that feels different from the others on this list.

Both of you would fall into the latter category (using what the characters are known for as a basis for their role), and having any specifics and a shout out to something beyond Epstein with that kind of focus does give yours more resemblance to the likes of Ehud Barak and Bill Gates, PMs you wouldn't have known about. I'd say you have the edge at this point.

Alright, I'm heading off too. I'll make a call on this sometime tomorrow morning most likely.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:26 PM (post #101)

I just realised there is an interesting mirror between night kills / actions between this game and last game when luna and pie were scum.

N1: They killed banana and they had pie as one of their strongest scum reads

N2: They killed Mag1c and mag1c was voting luna

Two things about this.

One, this would be a circumstance with a different scum pairing, so I don't expect the decisions made on targets would be equivalent between games, even if Luna is scum.

Two, one thing I know from playing with Luna as scum several times is that he doesn't give a fuck who his target is sussing. He's pretty prideful about not wanting to eliminate targets just because they're focusing on him. He's just not that kind of player as scum. If this did end up getting mirrored, I honestly believe that is more random chance than anything else.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 10:25 PM (post #100)

The case against Kohai:

Kohai already told us Popular doesn’t prove alignment. DP1 #152: “wolves have had popular modifiers like this in Mikal’s games.” DP1 #155: it would “prove my role and not necessarily alignment.” Today he’s asking if anyone’s ever seen a Popular with extra powers. He answered that himself on day one.

Both posts you're referencing basically amount to "my being confirmed Popular should be NAI." Neither of them suggest he's seen a game where a Popular player has an active role to boot, so no, I don't believe he answered that himself on day 1. He's continued to suggest he's never seen it before, though I have made a game where scum had a player like that and I posted the link for it.

His reads were wrong in exactly one direction. WF, he’s been on you since DP1 #113 (“strong potential pairing”) and opened DP3 with “almost certain it’s wf.” You know you’re town. He also floated a Helz/Luna team, voted Helz alongside the blackmailed Mag1c, and put town Mag1c at L1. Every player he pushed was town.

As in any game, I don't think sussing me is a scum tell, regardless of how townie I think I'm being. I don't really get considering pairings in DP1, but we were all basing our reads on threadbare information then. And in DP3, especially with the focus on me, Kohai and Helz and the belief that we should lynch in that pool, I get it. I mechanically had a whole lot less going for me than Helz did, so POE was enough to consider me the obvious choice, and for a lot of the DP, we'd all written off a pairing between you and Thoth. It could be sus, just not obviously so.

His handling of Thoth. He voted Thoth DP1 and immediately went “JK, unvote.” He townread him early DP2, which you yourself called strange. He didn’t vote him for real until after my guilty.

I went back and re-read that exchange. He was literally responding to Thoth saying "It is never okay to VTL me, and I do not grant you permission to ever do so." So, yeah, it was a response to a bit of absurdity from Thoth. I was sussing it, but closer inspection says it's NAI. I agree, the decision to townread Thoth early in DP2 was odd. I disagree that his voting Thoth based on the belief that a) your Cop result was accurate and b) the second Blackmail couldn't be real is sus. I think he had a reasonable basis for the vote and it solidified a position he was slowly building through DP2. And yes, just like you, he was reticent to vote for Thoth in DP2, focusing on the 1v1 between me and Mag1c. Not really sussing either of you for that.

Vanillizer on DP1. He brought it up unprompted before anyone was vanillized, and Thoth called it “supermassive TMI.” Scum turned out to have exactly that.

Covered this before, but he a) brought it up in a previous game without a Vanillaizer, b) had no incentive to out his partner's role, and c) would have to have been called out by his own partner for TMI. It's odd, I'll give you that, but the decision doesn't make logical sense for him. I'd expect Kohai from like a year ago to make that kind of error and draw attention to himself, but I've seen Kohai improve a great deal and I don't think he's likely to do it now. Off chance, but not an obvious sus.

The Blackmail chain. Mag1c gets blackmailed, his only move is a vote on Helz, and Kohai is the first one on it (DP2 #13). That fight is what got town Mag1c lynched.

I just don't get this. So Mag1c voted Helz. Kohai voted Helz with him. There was a "fight," which basically amounted to a question about whether there could be both a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer (again, the 1v1 we've been talking about a good deal, which involved everyone), so... Kohai is to blame for Mag1c's lynch? What am I missing? Feels like an Underpants Gnomes situation where a step is missing.

The N3 kill. Per Helz’s Soldier flip, if Kohai is scum, killing me or you loses outright. Killing Helz was his only move that didn’t lose immediately. That’s why we’re here.

Was wondering when this would come up and from whom. Yeah, the Soldier claim was a pretty big deal. I got the impression that Helz was very clear-eyed about making it. He knew he'd pretty much have to be the NK, regardless of who was scum. Assuming Kohai's scum, you're absolutely right, he couldn't kill you. That would have given town another route to victory since he could have just lynched me and been done with it. But a similar dynamic is true for you. If you're scum, then your fake green check on Helz effectively makes it impossible to lynch him in a three-way fight between you, him and either me or Kohai. And it wouldn't matter if Kohai or I was lynched, since Helz would've soloed the win.

So you're right. Killing Helz was the only move Kohai could make if he was scum. What you've left out is that killing Helz was also the only move you could make if you were scum.

My results are 3 for 3. Helz town, Thoth scum, and WF, town. As scum I could have won DP3 in the first hour off Kohai’s own vote on you. Instead I handed you Thoth.

I get it, your claimed results were accurate. If you're scum, you'd have already known all these results, so that's true whether you're a town Cop or just straight up scum. And once again, I'll point out that Kohai didn't post a vote on me DP3. Kohai several times said he was sussing me and considered a vote on me, but he never cast one, as evidenced by the fact that he was on the Thoth lynch instead of just, you know, being locked in on me.

I get that the decision to go after Thoth helps your case because you did have what looked like a clear route to victory putting attention on either Helz or me last DP. You would have had to make a call early on in the DP that the risk of losing that vote was too great, putting your attention on winning this DP. That's not the obvious choice. Helz didn't think it was and I don't think it was, either. I am considering that. I know you to take big risks for big rewards as a scum player, though, and I can't just dismiss that, either.

I am usually reserved with my votes, I describe myself as an intentional voter. On that end, I don't think there's a point to voting thoth at this point in the day phase if the vote won't accomplish much, and I was in general agreement about the vanillize/blackmailer dynamic. Even knowing he is scum now for sure, I don't know that in hind sight trying to steer the game in that direction makes the most sense with the information we had and at the point in the game we were at, and the limited activity from thoth. I explored him in later rounds and that should be enough.

As someone who is pretty reserved with voting myself, I get it, but I do also recognize that you're trying to gain some steam off of sussing Thoth when you were clearly unwilling to push him based on your sus. Wouldn't be a first for you to break with others in the DP, though I'll grant you that the 1v1 that was being setup at the time was really drawing enough attention that it likely wouldn't have gone anywhere. Maybe you could see the writing on the wall for that push at the time. Again, though, I don't really like that you keep pointing to Thoth's lack of activity as an excuse. Thoth was absent over a good deal of the DP, sure, but there are substantial overlaps in your activity and his during DP2, overlaps when he was present and posting for over an hour in the early morning (particularly true on the day the lynch went through). I don't buy that he just was too inactive to consider because you didn't expect to receive responses. I know he's ghosted us before, but I don't buy that here.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:10 PM (post #97)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 10:10 PM (post #96)

Anyway, taking a break for now. I'm not planning to make the decision tonight, and I'll continue to do the back and forth for a while before I call it. I want to sleep on this and make sure I'm not just overfocusing on a couple of elements that stand out to me.

What questions do you want me to answer specifically

You know, I don't think I have any specific ones yet. I'm more trying to develop what I see as a pattern of behavior that's giving me some insight into how you were thinking at various times. Might change as I dig deeper, but for now, I'm at least getting some clarity from just reading through the ISO.

Anyway, taking a break for now. I'm not planning to make the decision tonight, and I'll continue to do the back and forth for a while before I call it. I want to sleep on this and make sure I'm not just overfocusing on a couple of elements that stand out to me.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 10:03 PM (post #91)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 7:59 PM (post #85)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 9:43 PM (post #77)

WF, fair read, and I appreciate you giving the towntells their due. On being hands off with Thoth in DP2: I’d point out you did the exact same thing. In your #280 you called Thoth “the most probable person to be his scum partner,” then voted Mag1c in #288, because DP2 was the WF vs Mag1c question and we all treated that as the lynch. I was in the same spot. I did put Thoth on the spot in #254 and told him he was still a top problem we had to deal with, but I wasn’t going to split votes away from the main question on an activity read. When I had a result, I voted him.

There's a difference between stating that I think I know the likely team and specifically putting attention on one of them (in this case, Mag1c) with the aim of getting to the other (Thoth) based on the flip. I don't see that kind of reasoning from you in your posts, and while you put some attention and Mag1c and me, there wasn't a clear decision that I could see. I do see you putting Thoth on the spot, but never stating a clear intent to vote or actually voting. I agree that changed in DP3.

There's only so much you can do with thoth and his generally sporadic activity levels, it's something I have struggled with him in multiple games. We are also pressed with a deadline and when I woke up dp2 the consensus was pretty much that a black mail and a vanillize didn't make sense existing on the same night phase, which I agreed with that logic. I've pressured thoth and been met with inactivity in more games than just this one. The difference in those games is that we usually have more time to sus him out, as opposed to me stalling the entire lynch of magic just to get him talking. The conclusion dp2 was obvious between you and magic, we had plenty of time to go through thoth still.

I guess, though the difference here is that, even when Thoth was active, there wasn't the kind of push I'd expect from someone who was clearly sussing him. I agree, attention in the DP was on the belief that only Mag1c or I were telling the truth. You seemed pretty on the fence about it, and I get that. It just seems odd that, when you had a clear scumread besides and he did become active later in the DP, there were a couple of posts making your reads clear, a post asking him some admittedly pointed questions, and no votes.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:02 PM (post #89)

Noah would have been the perfect person for me to keep around if I was scum. He was sussing Luna and was following my footsteps nearly the entire game. Keep that in mind as I always keep Noah alive.

Maybe. I'll consider it.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 9:53 PM (post #81)

Ask yourself: Why is Noah the n2 kill and why is Mag1c the person blackmailed?

My guess with Noah is that it had to do with concerns about him interfering with night actions and being a bit of wild card. Even if he was sussing the right person (in this case, Luna), he probably wasn't going to lead a lynch all that effectively as a new player. Mag1c was in part an effort to get him lynched as an unknown role (it worked) and in part an effort to give Thoth cover the following DP (which didn't). There's some chance they were just targeted to shake lynches on Luna and Thoth, which may be true to some degree, but it's not the reason that's most prominent from where I'm sitting.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 9:43 PM (post #77)

WF, fair read, and I appreciate you giving the towntells their due. On being hands off with Thoth in DP2: I’d point out you did the exact same thing. In your #280 you called Thoth “the most probable person to be his scum partner,” then voted Mag1c in #288, because DP2 was the WF vs Mag1c question and we all treated that as the lynch. I was in the same spot. I did put Thoth on the spot in #254 and told him he was still a top problem we had to deal with, but I wasn’t going to split votes away from the main question on an activity read. When I had a result, I voted him.

There's a difference between stating that I think I know the likely team and specifically putting attention on one of them (in this case, Mag1c) with the aim of getting to the other (Thoth) based on the flip. I don't see that kind of reasoning from you in your posts, and while you put some attention and Mag1c and me, there wasn't a clear decision that I could see. I do see you putting Thoth on the spot, but never stating a clear intent to vote or actually voting. I agree that changed in DP3.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 9:38 PM (post #76)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 9:36 PM (post #75)

Luna -

Going to get this out of the way first, Luna's had a couple of towntells over the course of the DP that I'm considering. They're peppered into the DP at various points, e.g. asking Savant to ping Thoth, the "derp" moment with the uncertainty about the lack of an NP, and the confusion over Noah's NK. I'm still considering them and whether they were purposely included, but I am giving him a bit of credit for them (particularly the derp since Thoth briefly called him out for his lack of familiarity with the DP structure).

Luna has been playing mafia long enough to know how to find the answers to these questions. It is very easy to fake derp yourself (I know because I've done it myself).

With regards to their d1 interactions - Luna had plenty of opportunity to push for a thoth lynch but does not. He stays on shinning. He asks Shining who he wants to lynch. When shining says Thoth he stays on Thoth.

Yeah, like I said, it's plausible he just did this to sprinkle in town tells purposefully. It's plausible.

I think you mean when Shining says Thoth, he stayed on Shining. I don't see any votes on Thoth from Luna before DP3.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 9:27 PM (post #74)

I’ll leave balance alone. We’ve both said our piece and neither of us knows the full setup. On the JOAT point, I never suggested Kohai is a JOAT. Popular is a modifier, so what I’m suggesting is just a Popular Blackmailer. I am pointing out that we don't know what the other scum even has to say that they don't have a lawyer or something is a bit of a reach when we don't know the full set up, but we at the vest least know a vanillizer exists, and counters my role. On me never voting Thoth in DP2, that day was the WF vs Mag1c question. Town agreed one of you was lying, and that was what we needed to resolve. I pushed Thoth with questions and kept him at the top of my list, but I wasn’t going to pull the day off the main question for an activity read. I voted him the moment I had a result.

Maybe we just differ on this front, but I'd view someone with two separate roles, even one passive and one active role, as a JOAT of sorts. I'm not going to be ride or die on that perspective since mine might not be shared widely and it's mainly just semantics anyway.

My point about the Lawyer is that it doesn't make sense for Epstein, who wasn't in the legal profession. It would make sense for Derschowitz, but calling him Popular would be a tough sell. So while I agree that we don't know the full setup, we do know that the other scum player is one of those two, and neither checks all 3 boxes without stretching dramatically to fit.

I've said what I'm going to say about the Vanillaizer and framing it as a counter. You can keep repeating that it's a counter to your role, but I'll tell you now, I'm not buying that framing.

And fair enough on the focus of DP2, though I'll note you didn't exactly join either side on that question, either. I didn't see a vote at all during the DP. Wouldn't say that's sus, but I do think it's a little strange to keep calling attention to the fact that Thoth was on top of your sus list and not post a vote on him or anyone else.

Since you’re moving to behavior, I’d point you at a couple things from your own ISO of Kohai. 1. Kohai brought up a Vanillizer on DP1, before anyone had been vanillized. Scum turned out to have exactly that. Kohai townread Thoth early in DP2, the confirmed scum, saying his behavior looked the same as last game. You called that “an even stranger choice” yourself. I had Thoth as a top suspect from DP1 on and never let up. Thoth sussed me in DP1, and I sussed him right back the whole game. If we were partners, that’s a whole lot of distancing with zero payoff.

Kohai also pointed to where he mentioned the same role in a previous game where he was town. Don't know if I buy that he gives any indication that he knows a role as obvious as Vanillaizer is in the game if he's scum, either. It's something, but I'm hesitant to put too much weight on the mention.

I've already stated my perspective on Kohai early DP2 and I agree it's odd. I can, however, clearly see his progression to sussing him. Maybe he faked that, there's always a possibility that he just decided to put some distance between them.

Both yours and Thoth's susses on one another were pretty weak, man. Really doesn't help that neither of you voted the other. Thoth only ever voted Shining. I can give you some credit for the consistent scumread, but it's not exactly the kind of solid distance you're making it out to be.

Luna -

Going to get this out of the way first, Luna's had a couple of towntells over the course of the DP that I'm considering. They're peppered into the DP at various points, e.g. asking Savant to ping Thoth, the "derp" moment with the uncertainty about the lack of an NP, and the confusion over Noah's NK. I'm still considering them and whether they were purposely included, but I am giving him a bit of credit for them (particularly the derp since Thoth briefly called him out for his lack of familiarity with the DP structure).

Apart from that, though, there's not a lot to cover between Luna and Thoth in those first two DPs. Luna pointed to a lack of contribution on Thoth's part, which is just low-hanging fruit that a lot of us were discussing at the time.

Luna's perspective on Thoth was more skeptical than Kohai's by the end of DP1 and he said that he'd help push Thoth in DP2. That was basically instantly forgotten when DP2 started. I get it to some degree since Magoroth was dead and with him the push on Thoth was kind of dead in the water. The problem I have is that Luna's attention doesn't go away from him, yet he doesn't post a vote on Thoth at all throughout the DP. That includes calling out the outlier claim later in the DP and pointing back to the vote from Magoroth on Thoth the previous DP. To some degree, I get it given the whole hurricane situation as a reason for delaying a push, but past the point when he started posting more, I can't say I understand the absence of a push given that he remained Luna's top scumread throughout much of the DP.

I wouldn't say there's anything obviously wrong here, he's sussing Thoth for the same reasons many of us were. It's just odd how hands off he was throughout DP2 despite that.

Kohai -

Started off with Thoth just clarifying that he has an SOP claim. Kohai mentioned a Vanillaizer in DP1, which did get called out by Thoth before he rather quickly dropped the issue. Could have been more for show and establishing distance, but it wasn't much.

Bit of a weird one-off vote in the middle of DP1 that turned into a "JK" unvote. Sussed Shining over flavor analysis that, at least in retrospect, rightly implicated Thoth.

Even stranger choice to townread Thoth pretty early into DP2, saying that his behavior looked the same as last game. Said he was going to analyze his ISO and that didn't really happen, but there wasn't much to ISO from Thoth that early. He did, however, start to reconsider the read when he realized Thoth was Magoroth's sus. Straight up asked if Thoth had a Vanillaizing role, which is kind of hilarious in retrospect.

Some disagreement between them on the balance of existing roles. Thoth seemed much more willing to accept that balance than Kohai did, though all this was before the Inventor flip and Luna's Cop claim. Rightly questioned why Thoth believed an unclaimed player at the time was most likely scum, pushed back on the weird daycop scenario, and agreed that the claim of Virginia Giuffre stood as pretty distinct and strange.

So a bit of a peak and valley situation from where I'm sitting. Their early interactions feel like they might favor Kohai a bit, since it's an odd thing to call out Kohai for participating in a claim set so early and not note or agree with the SOP claim. After that, it's a bunch of strange perspectives from Kohai back-to-back before he starts reconsidering his reads and changes tacks on Thoth. I can see the progression pretty clearly and it's not an unnatural transition. I don't really get his perspective late DP1 or early DP2, so that's a bit of a red flag, but if his goal was to take attention off of Thoth, he wasn't doing a very good job, and if the goal was to distance himself from Thoth, it's a mixed bag.

Alright, I'm back at it. I'm going to do a deep dive focusing on DP1 and DP2 for both Kohai and Luna focused entirely on behavior.

Anyway, I can't just spend the rest of my workday on here, so I'll pick this up when I get home this evening. I want to do an ISO on both of you and compare them. Taking a little time away will also give me an opportunity to reset my uncertainties and focus my attention off of mechanical/flavor reads.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 2:04 PM (post #64)

Read Thoth’s ISO. There’s very little mention of Luna in their posts and almost no interactions.

Same with Luna.

They avoid talking to each other or snout each other

To be fair, Thoth wasn't really all that engaged with reads in general. He posted one set of reads back in DP1 where he lightly sussed Luna for failing to note how phases work this game, which I didn't find alignment indicative. In DP2, he started to townread Luna, I think in part because he was portraying it as Luna vs. Mag1c at the time. He said he felt "decent" on Luna later in the DP and "not so decent" on Mag1c, but it was never clear why the flip happened on Luna and that looks worse going back through. It's a weird flip in perception. He never returned to the issue that made him sus Luna in DP1.

Luna on the other hand did at least engage with Thoth on the read front. He pushed back on Thoth's initial read on him, but largely just kept him in POE because he was absent early on. Fair enough, I think we all did. Made a lot of suggestions in that first DP that he was willing to shift from Shining to Thoth, made a bit of noise about Thoth throughout DP2 but never voted him there despite regularly having him as one of his biggest suspects. I wouldn't say he was protective of him per se, but despite multiple efforts to engage with him, I didn't see any pressure from Luna. It wasn't until the start of DP3 that he signaled intent to vote for Thoth and followed through on it.

Think about it this way

Which flavor is more likely to be in tbe game: Bill Clinton or Stephen Hawking?

If I were popular scum then I’d need to have been able to claim my role + immediately figure out a possible character / justification that fits. From scum POV Clinton is highly likely to he in the game (Luna himself admitted it). So I would have very little time to concut a fake claim and reverse engineer justification

I think I've already made it clear who I'm favoring mechanically and based on flavor, so you don't have to push the point. Like I said, you'd have to have had time before the start of the DP to ask questions, come up with a claim, and post it. It's possible, even if I wouldn't say it's likely.

The difference is there is a back up to losing a bulletproof in a world where we didn’t lynch a doctor np1, there’s not really one for cop. Vanillizer hitting me is more devastating which makes it a better counter imo.

There's no backup for the Inventor. There's no backup for the Redirector. I get that a Cop is more of a mainstay role, but you've argued that it's not as "big" of an effect as either the Doc or the Redirector. Why is the Vanillaizer a counter to your role specifically and not any of those, especially as you'd still get a shot off with it if you'd been Vanillaized DP1?

The Inventor probably bears the least resemblance to your role out of the available active roles beyond mine, but let's go with it. The Inventor could give out a maximum of two shots of investigative roles, all to other people whom the user may or may not trust, yet yours allows you personally to investigate 3 other people and that's equivalent? I don't see it.

You don’t see a role existing in this game when that same role has existed in 90% of games in every game you’ve ever played because it’s not the same as some other random role that exists in the game? Come on Whiteflame. Mafia had plenty of things to counter me and had ways to kill me.

This is just a bad faith response. Read what I said again. I said that I don't see why your role would specifically get three shots while others would only get two. It's not about the existence of a Cop, though I have covered that specifically (see all my other responses), it's about the unlimited shots. Also, it was your point that the Inventor was akin to your Cop because it had 3 shots, not mine. The burden's on you to show how the Inventor increases the likelihood of the existence of a Cop. I've already said my piece about the counters as well.

Asking about Clinton’s a high risk high reward claim that lays off immediately and is better the sooner you claim it.

Agreed. Once again, it assumes that he had extra time before the DP to ask those questions and chose this specific character knowing that they were likely present in the game. Like I said last DP, not impossible but implausible.

I never said scum needed a Lawyer, I said maybe. Drop it and it's just Blackmailer + Popular, and that fits Epstein perfectly. He's infamous for collecting blackmail material on powerful people, and Popular is basically his whole deal: everyone's friend, the social hub of the entire network. Two roles, both on the nose for him. Claiming Clinton is a good cover for that. What I'd really like you to weigh is #57, since you haven't touched it. Kohai's very first post of DP3 was "almost certain it's wf." If I'm scum, me, Thoth and Kohai win the game right there, no claims needed. Instead I claimed cop and handed you a guilty on my own partner. Every one of my results has flipped exactly as I said. Balance arguments cut both ways. That one doesn't.

Except that, if we drop the Lawyer out, there's no specific counter to your claimed Cop. I've already acknowledged that Epstein could fit the Blackmailer + Popular, but again, that assumes that your role is the only one with solely positive town utility (I'd say the Redirector is a mixed bag at best and the Commuter has its own concerns since they also couldn't be investigated, but the BP, Doc and Tracker/Watcher are a different story) to which scum had no specific counters. There's something else that's sticking out to me from the flip, which is that it says "a JOAT" rather than a specific kind of JOAT. Maybe I'm just reading into it too much, but I'd count it as unusual that two mafia team members are both just "a JOAT," which is what you're suggesting is the case here. When I've done it before, I've delineated between the types of JOATs in each of the PMs. That might just be me, so I'm not putting much weight on that, but it bothers me.

I actually did respond to #57 in #62, so that's just incorrect. You can feel free to address that when you come back on later, I'm not hammering anyone for a good while yet.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 1:43 PM (post #57)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 11:38 AM (post #54)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 1:23 PM (post #45)

If I actually get mislynched here I can't even be too mad about it. My history of bussing has caused a lot of paranoia, it was bound to backfire on me at some point. That said, I would actually have been retarded to choose a bus here over just pushing helz towards lynching outside of me and thoth yesterday, when that was almost something we did. I basically doubled down on a bus over a free win is the argument here lol.

I'm considering that as well. I agree, I think there were viable routes to a win last DP if you were scum. It baffled me then and it baffles me now.

I can, however, see reasons why you would make the choice. For one, if you didn't think you had a good role claim for Thoth, he would almost certainly have been lynched anyway if he'd ended up claiming. There was already attention on him for his character claim, so no, Helz was not the sole focus of attention going into DP3. For another, you could have already felt pretty locked into the decision to keep Helz on your side after laying the groundwork by townreading and defending him in the previous DP. Not impossible to pivot from that, but considering his attention was squarely on Kohai and me for much of the DP, I could see the value in pocketing him, even if it meant you'd have to kill him should he pivot to Thoth as he did.

I get the reasoning, but go back to the very start of DP3. Kohai’s first post of the day was “Almost certain it’s wf.” Five alive, three votes to lynch. If I’m scum, me, Thoth and Kohai end the game right there. Nobody had to claim anything, and Thoth could stay “blackmailed” and silent. Free win in the first hour.

Instead I claimed cop and handed you a guilty on my own supposed partner. As scum that’s trading a guaranteed win for a coin flip on DP4. Nobody does that.

On pocketing Helz: if I wanted Helz on my side I’d just agree with him. I wouldn’t need a cop result, and I definitely wouldn’t burn the night kill on the guy I was supposedly pocketing.

...except Kohai was reticent to actually post a vote. Yes, if he had posted one, there was the possibility that you both would have jumped on me and the game would have been over. He didn't, so I don't get this hypothetical. Yeah, he was sussing me. I acknowledged the reason for it several times in the DP and it made sense. Helz sussed me for very similar reasons and he was town.

And yes, I am considering the decisions on the Cop results you gave. Assuming you're scum for a moment, I don't think it was ever a given that you could just run away with it in DP3, not with all the sus on Thoth at the time. And I know you well enough to know you'd be willing to make some pretty risky moves if it meant others would see you as strongly town for doing it, including bussing your partner. It's not a given, I still don't think it was the obvious play if you are scum, but I can't write you off as town for doing it.

I just disagree on that last point. I think if you believed you could convince me, then yes, you would WIFOM the decision to kill Helz. It's not out of the realm of possibility.

Its a little worrying that whiteflame doesn't seem to be suspicious of kohai at all here. I am getting the vibe that he might already have his mind made up here lol

Mechanically, he has more support than you. I'm not leaving it solely up to mechanics, but for right now, that's what I'm mainly considering. I'm going to shift to behavior when I get a chance.

Anyway, have to take a break, I'll be back later.

I’d look at it as each counter matching what it’s countering. Town’s one-shot roles got one-shot counters, Strongman for the doc/BP and Ninja for the one-shot tracker/watcher. The one role that keeps going every night got the one counter that’s permanent. The Vanillizer is the only ability in this game that shuts a role off for good, and the cop is the only role that really cares about that.

Strongman was one shot, but countered three different shots (my BP and the 2X Doc). Ninja countered two separate uses of different one shot roles with one shot of its own. So, no, I don't buy that it's one shot roles getting one shot counters. I also just don't agree that the Cop would be the only role that cares about the Vanillaizer. I cared about it and I just lost a single-use BP. Anyone losing any roles "cares" about it.

With the clock, this game was always max 4 days with forced lynches, so 3 nights. “Unlimited” works out to 3 checks, which is basically the same as the Inventor’s 3 one-shot items. It fits the setup more than you’d think.

The Inventor probably bears the least resemblance to your role out of the available active roles beyond mine, but let's go with it. The Inventor could give out a maximum of two shots of investigative roles, all to other people whom the user may or may not trust, yet yours allows you personally to investigate 3 other people and that's equivalent? I don't see it.

You said yourself DP1 that scum may have had prep time and we shouldn’t trust fast claims at face value. Asking about Clinton is low risk for scum. He’s near guaranteed to be in an Epstein game, and it confirms he isn’t taken. DJT would be the obvious one, but you already had him.

Yeah, and that's always been a consideration, but it's an extra factor that I can't ever be certain of. Weird that you'd say asking about Clinton is low risk when you just said he was the most obvious pick to be in this game. Generally speaking, as scum, I would almost never risk asking about one of the most likely characters to be in a game. Sure, you'd just lose out on a character claim, but that can be a sizeable loss by itself and you'd gain, at best, light intel.

We can agree to dis-agree about whether a clear counter to cop isn't a vanillizer, or that the time limit plus magic roles don't act as counters. But yeah, not entirely out of the question a counter like lawyer doesn't exist.

Alright. What I'd like to understand, then, is how either Epstein or Derschowitz would fit the profile of a Blackmailer/Lawyer/Popular. I could see either of them fitting two of those, but not the full suite of 3.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 1:23 PM (post #45)

If I actually get mislynched here I can't even be too mad about it. My history of bussing has caused a lot of paranoia, it was bound to backfire on me at some point. That said, I would actually have been retarded to choose a bus here over just pushing helz towards lynching outside of me and thoth yesterday, when that was almost something we did. I basically doubled down on a bus over a free win is the argument here lol.

I'm considering that as well. I agree, I think there were viable routes to a win last DP if you were scum. It baffled me then and it baffles me now.

I can, however, see reasons why you would make the choice. For one, if you didn't think you had a good role claim for Thoth, he would almost certainly have been lynched anyway if he'd ended up claiming. There was already attention on him for his character claim, so no, Helz was not the sole focus of attention going into DP3. For another, you could have already felt pretty locked into the decision to keep Helz on your side after laying the groundwork by townreading and defending him in the previous DP. Not impossible to pivot from that, but considering his attention was squarely on Kohai and me for much of the DP, I could see the value in pocketing him, even if it meant you'd have to kill him should he pivot to Thoth as he did.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 1:24 PM (post #46)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 1:19 PM (post #43)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 1:16 PM (post #41)

Ask yourself: Why does w!me kill Noah if all people? Especially since he was strong sussing Luna

Maybe. Uncertainty surrounding how he'd use his Redirector would have been a concern for anyone, and I know I wasn't buying into the every odd night use of the role. It is interesting that he died, though, given that he was sussing Luna. You'd think his choice of target would have been Luna himself, though I guess Thoth could've carried out the kill.

In what world does the mafia team have

Popular blackmailer

JOAT: 1x vanilla, strongman, and ninja

Have you ever seen a popular that has any additional powers other than that?

Like I said last DP: yes. I included one in my own Castlevania game, though it never got much play because the scum team got found out quick. Still got the setup: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NM2XXssbp7qGPsV5Lr4-RvZzeAs0or9lZBv0AZv61fM/edit?usp=sharing

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 1:20 PM (post #44)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 11:13 AM (post #39)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 1:09 PM (post #36)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 11:04 AM (post #33)

mafia has counter to doctor and tracker but not to cop!?

Vanillizer counters cop.

I'm hesitant to buy into that. Vanillaizer counters PRs, not Cop specifically, and scum clearly had a response to the 1X Tracker and Watcher roles that Mag1c could've given out. Why not have a response to the other investigative role that has 3X or more shots?

There is three counters to it if you count magics role revealing a role, and the every night phase kill as well. Also we don't know that the other scum role doesnt have a lawyer factor to it as well. They could have a 1x blackmail, 1x lawyer, 1xpopular for all we know. That said, I do think there is enough known counters without that to factor as a counter here.

Again, though, that's not a counter. Mag1c's role reveal hurts anyone whose PM gets revealed, that's just straight up. It doesn't do more harm to a Cop than it does to, say, a Doctor. And yes, we'd have to assume based on everything we know that the other scum role in play is 1x Blackmailer, 1x Lawyer, and Popular.