Originally Posted by Helz on 10/10/2026 at 11:28 PM (post #345)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/10/2026 at 10:18 PM (post #339)
Originally Posted by Helz on 10/10/2026 at 11:12 PM (post #335)
Home now.
Imo there is lies that have to be called out and we have a situation where everyone aknoledges that. Towns most critical PR is dead. I am not asking for a full PR reveal but the game balance does not match up with what we know to exist.
Im still where I was yesterday feeling there is a big gap in balance that does not add up. I would not mind pushing for a full flavor claim. WF's refusal to claim because it points to their action is a giant question mark for me. Like... What would that claim even narrow down? Not saying that to ask WF for a claim but I am questioning how a claim of being Trump would point to any specific role and how that matches up with them refusing to give a flavor D1. Trump is like... All over the place. I could see justification of being any role on the planet with that flavor.
I have the paranoia of how easily everyone is accepting of a Mag1c lynch and I recognize that it is paranoia. Figure we need to move soon regardless. Duno who is around at this hour.
I don't think my role claim would help dramatically at this point, honestly. I do think there's value in keeping it hidden even now, but I'll admit that's become a whole lot less so since I was Vanillaized. As for what it is being obvious, while I agree that there are probably numerous roles that could have been justifiable for Trump, I do think there are a few more obvious picks, one of which (the one I got) was exactly where my mind went when I saw the character.
Your call there. I am not asking for a role claim but I am calling out that I question thinking its obvious.
Maybe everyone else will see some obvious role there. I do not have one that comes to mind other than like mayor? "You are the asshole of the world and make shit happen" kinda deal? But then why hide that?
I just feel weird looking at your claim and feeling it both totally gave away your role as well as its somehow something to protect now. Trump is probably the most all over the place flavor claim I can think of and you refused to flavor claim saying that it would make your role obvious. I just question that.
All I'm saying is that I would have called this role straight up if someone else had claimed Trump. I can see the argument that the character could be paired with a lot of different roles. Maybe this connection just seems more obvious to me given a particular photo of his sticks out in my mind.
Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/10/2026 at 11:21 PM (post #340)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/10/2026 at 10:18 PM (post #339)
I do think there's value in keeping it hidden even now, but I'll admit that's become a whole lot less so since I was Vanillaized.
If it's what I think, the only possible value is from the off chance of a counter-claim. Notwithstanding that it would have been a better fit for another claimed character.
Yeah, I said as much already, that the purpose of keeping it hidden was to give scum less information to fashion fake claims. Not sure it would have been a better fit for another claimed character, actually.
Originally Posted by Helz on 10/10/2026 at 11:12 PM (post #335)
Home now.
Imo there is lies that have to be called out and we have a situation where everyone aknoledges that. Towns most critical PR is dead. I am not asking for a full PR reveal but the game balance does not match up with what we know to exist.
Im still where I was yesterday feeling there is a big gap in balance that does not add up. I would not mind pushing for a full flavor claim. WF's refusal to claim because it points to their action is a giant question mark for me. Like... What would that claim even narrow down? Not saying that to ask WF for a claim but I am questioning how a claim of being Trump would point to any specific role and how that matches up with them refusing to give a flavor D1. Trump is like... All over the place. I could see justification of being any role on the planet with that flavor.
I have the paranoia of how easily everyone is accepting of a Mag1c lynch and I recognize that it is paranoia. Figure we need to move soon regardless. Duno who is around at this hour.
I don't think my role claim would help dramatically at this point, honestly. I do think there's value in keeping it hidden even now, but I'll admit that's become a whole lot less so since I was Vanillaized. As for what it is being obvious, while I agree that there are probably numerous roles that could have been justifiable for Trump, I do think there are a few more obvious picks, one of which (the one I got) was exactly where my mind went when I saw the character.
Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/10/2026 at 9:33 PM (post #321)
Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/10/2026 at 8:32 PM (post #320)
You, Mag1c and Luna are the only ones that haven’t. Unless y’all have some super god powers then we are very under powered here.
Again, one of the current claimants has most likely lied.
It’s probable, though that doesn’t really change the fact that there are surprisingly few town PRs with roles that are unequivocally beneficial to town in the field so far. There are three players, yourself included, who may have information that shifts that perspective, but the rest of us don’t have that insight. Thats balanced against a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer, which make for a pretty powerful scum team even if they’re 1X shots.
Not really a question for me atp. I’m not happy about the lack of reads this DP, but I guess that will have to wait.
VTL: Mag1cman
Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/10/2026 at 1:21 PM (post #283)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/10/2026 at 12:54 PM (post #282)
Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/10/2026 at 12:51 PM (post #281)
Typically with blackmailers there’s usually a restriction that you can’t force them to not post. Also there’s generally restriction from claiming to have been blackmailed.
Yeah, that's what I've read, too. I've seen different versions, but they usually aren't this restrictive.
Right. And if he couldn’t post then he already broke the blackmail terms
Yep, it looks like a big problem for his case. I'm pretty sure we'll go with him in the end, just want to get everyone at least posting some reads before we go through with it.
Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/10/2026 at 12:51 PM (post #281)
Typically with blackmailers there’s usually a restriction that you can’t force them to not post. Also there’s generally restriction from claiming to have been blackmailed.
Yeah, that's what I've read, too. I've seen different versions, but they usually aren't this restrictive.
Alright, we've got to make some progress towards a lynch here and not much is happening. Going to give some reads and thoughts for a lynch.
I'm setting Helz entirely aside for now. I've mentioned already that I think he and Mag1c are entirely uncoupled as a potential scum pairing, and I stand by that. If we end up eliminating Mag1c and dude flips town, Helz is my first consideration for next DP. The early vote by Mag1c on Helz is part of it, but I've had my concerns about him since last DP. I also have issues with how much he's focused on a theme split, though that might just be part of the challenge he's giving himself this game.
For the time being, I'm also setting aside Kohai. It's not the same boat - I wouldn't say Kohai and Mag1c are entirely uncoupled - but I believe it's pretty unlikely they're on a team together. I didn't like the early jumping on the same vote with Mag1c, though maybe he just bought that the Blackmail was real at the time and figured it supported his read on Helz. It's something I'll revisit later.
I'm wary of Noah, but considering setting him aside as well. The way he's claimed his role just has me on edge with the whole "I can only use this on odd nights" addition coming late and conveniently at a time that makes it impossible for him to use it until DP3. I buy that he asked Savant about it, and depending on when he asked, he might not have received a response in time to make a decision. I don't really get his choice of targets, either. He's a bit of an outside consideration that's just irking me at this point, basically entirely unconnected with anyone.
I'm also wary of Luna, though that has more to do with his claim being a big question mark and what seems like a persistent difficulty reading him behaviorally on my part. I think his reads earlier in the DP make sense, and no, that's not just because he was townreading me. The response to the apparent Blackmailing does look like he's trying to figure out the bounds of it pretty well. Similar to Noah, I'm on the fence about him.
Thoth has brought some more of his perspective to this DP, which is good to see, but I'm not getting any clear idea of where his head is at with regards to reads. Introducing some more doubt on whether there's a balance issue to consider here is worrying. I can't tell if he's being genuine or trying to cover for his partner. I could see a world where Noah or Luna are tied to Mag1c, but Thoth is the most probable person to be his scum partner should Mag1c flip scum.
And then we get to Mag1c. I've got so many conflicting thoughts about him. I would not be surprised that a role like Blackmailer exists in this game, it's very much on brand, particularly given the expected scum split. I also think it's a pretty big risk to just effectively pretend he's unable to post and hope for the best, relying on his partner and other potential susses to carry him through. That being said, it's not a first for him to pretend to have been targeted by a scum role to get towncred, and the way the role works is... confusing. So he was allowed at the start of the DP to announce that he'd been Blackmailed? And post a vote? That's it? If that's true, it's a way more potent Silencer because the player couldn't even get confirmation that a role had been used on them, so we can't even confirm that this was the result of a night action. The same was true with a Poisoner several games back (though usually that is announced), which Mag1c did fake. And now, of course, we can't get his claim. Absent his, Thoth's and Luna's claims, assuming they're both town, the PRs for town look suspiciously weak and even self-defeating. Just to break it down, claims have town as:
A 2X Doc (limited use protective)
A Singer (negative utility)
A Popular (mainly just self-confirmation)
A 2X Redirector (manipulative, mixed often negative utility)
I can and have confirmed that my role does not dramatically reshape this dynamic. No investigatives yet, though Helz has said he's either VT or PGO, so either no utility or another negative utility role. So either the three unclaimed players dramatically reshape the balance of the setup to the point that there could be a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer, or the balance strongly indicates that one of those two roles isn't in here. Maybe there is a town Vanillaizing role, but I can't say I'm banking on that.
My feeling right now is that the Mag1c elimination would do the most to limit POE. What's holding me back in part is that role uncertainty. Again, balance seems off here and I'm hesitant to just lynch among the unclaimed pool when we can and should suspect some valuable PRs in there.
Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/10/2026 at 12:06 AM (post #260)
You said your character makes your role obvious. Only one role comes to mind as fitting DJT. I don't want to say it in case it's right, but it's not a perfect match.
I'm just going to keep things vague here in the hopes that I'm the only one who saw this as obvious. I wouldn't call it perfect, though.
Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/10/2026 at 12:06 AM (post #261)
Every odd night once
So... you're a 2X use odd night Redirector? That's a weird mix.
Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/9/2026 at 11:42 PM (post #243)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 10:37 PM (post #237)
Don't want to give away what it is, but technically yes.
I probably should have rephrased that. I meant to ask if you were told whether or not you would get a chance to use your role if you had one. So an order of operations question
That's pretty much what I thought you meant. The Vanillaizing was not also an RB, that was confirmed.
Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 11:34 PM (post #235)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 10:29 PM (post #230)
Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/9/2026 at 11:28 PM (post #228)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 10:25 PM (post #225)
Blackmailing =/= Silencing. It wasn’t announced so they could just fake it if that was the aim and get exactly the same result.
Que es la diferencia?
Again, lack of announcement. Silencing comes with mod confirmation in the OP. Blackmailing comes with nothing. Faking it yields the same result as actually doing it, assuming the mod even allows a scum player to Blackmail another scum player.
I do not think anyone thinks a blackmailer did that to their own team. More of a question of if its just faked.
I can not imagine any advantage to actually doing a blackmail on a team mate N1. If anything the team mate would fake it and then try to confirm themselves as town with a second blackmail N2.
It's not really a question for me: it's either faked or Mag1c was really Blackmailed as Town. Unless someone can confirm that I was Vanillaized by Town, I'm inclined to believe the former.
And yeah, I can't see an advantage either.
Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/9/2026 at 11:31 PM (post #232)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 10:29 PM (post #230)
Again, lack of announcement. Silencing comes with mod confirmation in the OP. Blackmailing comes with nothing. Faking it yields the same result as actually doing it, assuming the mod even allows a scum player to Blackmail another scum player.
Oh ok. I thought you were saying that blackmailing and silencing were two words for the same ability and it's mod discretion whether they announce it or not.
They do function differently, though I'll admit, my knowledge of how a Blackmailer works is pretty limited. Got a lot more experience with Silencers and they're consistently announced in the OP.
Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/9/2026 at 11:24 PM (post #223)
I'm gonna head to bed, if anyone has questions, I'll keep my laptop open to see the messages, but i'm really tired
Get some rest and be well.
Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/9/2026 at 11:28 PM (post #228)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 10:25 PM (post #225)
Blackmailing =/= Silencing. It wasn’t announced so they could just fake it if that was the aim and get exactly the same result.
Que es la diferencia?
Again, lack of announcement. Silencing comes with mod confirmation in the OP. Blackmailing comes with nothing. Faking it yields the same result as actually doing it, assuming the mod even allows a scum player to Blackmail another scum player.
Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/9/2026 at 11:20 PM (post #219)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 10:15 PM (post #213)
Assuming for now that the Blackmail is fake, I'd have a hard time believing that Helz is scum. He's drawn a great deal of attention to it, I think he'd at least be more equivocal on the possibility of me vs. Mag1c than he has been, and I just don't see a world in which that team decides to go for it on this kind of claim, particularly not with the whole "this is a bastard mechanic" framing.
Assuming the Blackmail is real, it's possible that Helz is scum, but he's obviously not paired with Mag1c.
So yeah, at this point, I can understand unpairing the two of them at this point. If they are paired, Helz is hard bussing his partner and it seems entirely unnecessary to go this hard.
Silencing yourself or a teammate for WIFOM is a thing
Blackmailing =/= Silencing. It wasn’t announced so they could just fake it if that was the aim and get exactly the same result.
Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/9/2026 at 11:11 PM (post #211)
Well its not Lunatic/NoAhLeEcLaRk as a team, because I have high sus. that he is a scum
Sussing someone doesn't mean you can't be paired. Bussing is a thing and just saying you sus Luna doesn't mean you can't be partners. I don't believe that you are right now, but that's not the main reason.
Assuming for now that the Blackmail is fake, I'd have a hard time believing that Helz is scum. He's drawn a great deal of attention to it, I think he'd at least be more equivocal on the possibility of me vs. Mag1c than he has been, and I just don't see a world in which that team decides to go for it on this kind of claim, particularly not with the whole "this is a bastard mechanic" framing.
Assuming the Blackmail is real, it's possible that Helz is scum, but he's obviously not paired with Mag1c.
So yeah, at this point, I can understand unpairing the two of them at this point. If they are paired, Helz is hard bussing his partner and it seems entirely unnecessary to go this hard.
whiteflame- Refused to claim, says Epstein is prominent in his PM (post 89) - Claimed vanillaized
Did claim DJT, so…
If it’s a town vanillaizer then that’s two major negative utility roles for town.
If it’s resulting from a Prober, I’d be a little skeptical of calling it straight up negative utility.
Two things came to mind when I gave the Vanillaizer and Blackmailer some thought.
First, we haven’t confirmed that the Vanillaizer is a scum role. There are town roles like Prober that would Vanillaize town players they target, and no, I wouldn’t expect whoever would have done that to just come out and say it.
Second, a Blackmailer makes a lot of sense in the context of this game, specifically, especially if we think the scum team is some combination of Epstein/Maxwell/Dershewitz. There’s a long history there of blackmail and blackmail-adjacent activities, even if they remain defiant about them.
Neither of these are a given. I still believe it’s very unlikely that scum have both a Vanillaizer and Blackmailer. But I can see a world where they only have one or the other.
Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 9:10 PM (post #102)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 8:07 PM (post #98)
The long and short of it is that I don’t trust the existence of both a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer here, either, but I also think it would be odd for a scum team that has a Vanillaizer to fake a Blackmailer claim, particularly if town is as weak as it looks. Doesn’t mean I’m accepting Mag1c’s statement that he was Blackmailed at face value, I’m just trying to determine if he’d take this big of a risk. Dude has claimed to be affected by a Poisoner before as scum, so I wouldn’t put it past him.
So, something on my mind is looking at the meta pattern. If you look at the links I dropped it was Mag1c pushing a case while doing everything possible to avoid owning up to not having one as scum and pushing to kill me as town. Faking a BM claim follows that exact same pattern of behavior. Casting votes to point a finger while avoiding having any reason or accountability.
(And again, I will state I was told by the host that Bastard mechanics do not exist and that I believe Blackmailer to be a bastard mechanic making their claim just fake)
Hadn’t thought about it this way, but I’ll consider it. Even if he is Blackmailed, Mag1c should be contributing more than this.
Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 9:10 PM (post #101)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 9:07 PM (post #98)
The long and short of it is that I don’t trust the existence of both a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer here, either, but I also think it would be odd for a scum team that has a Vanillaizer to fake a Blackmailer claim, particularly if town is as weak as it looks. Doesn’t mean I’m accepting Mag1c’s statement that he was Blackmailed at face value, I’m just trying to determine if he’d take this big of a risk. Dude has claimed to be affected by a Poisoner before as scum, so I wouldn’t put it past him.
Right now town claim only has
-2x doctor
-popular
1 major negative utility role
blackmailer + vanillaizer does seem way too OP
I’ll say that my role doesn’t significantly alter that calculus.
Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 9:04 PM (post #97)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 8:01 PM (post #93)
Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 8:56 PM (post #83)
PWe clearly have very different perspectives on this.
I suppose so. Given either flavor or role reveals could help solve right now in a huge way and the critical town role has already flipped I just do not see it.
If nothing else you and the handful of other no-claims should have greater thoughts about the potential split. We know its absolutely AI and figuring out that split is a major factor with later claimers being more sus in the situation.
I’m not convinced my claim will be the kind of massive help you believe it will be, and if you’re looking for me to give thoughts on a split, I did already cover that to some degree last DP. The problem is that, as you already said, we know scum have asked about two characters. We shouldn’t expect that they’ve straight claimed their characters, nor that their fake claims will put them due to being on the wrong side of the split. Feels a little strange to me to focus on the split when you’ve been saying how easy it is for scum to figure out fake claims.
I get you. But its not about me feeling they are easy to fake. Its about you holding back on the claim when your reasoning was that it would out your role.
I’m still convinced my role will be pretty obvious from this, though I won’t discuss that in more detail unless people really want my role on the off chance that it’s only obvious to me.
I figured this game flavor was a wash. It was something just useful to break RVS. But its weird how resistant people are to giving it now.
Figured I was pretty clear on the why.
The long and short of it is that I don’t trust the existence of both a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer here, either, but I also think it would be odd for a scum team that has a Vanillaizer to fake a Blackmailer claim, particularly if town is as weak as it looks. Doesn’t mean I’m accepting Mag1c’s statement that he was Blackmailed at face value, I’m just trying to determine if he’d take this big of a risk. Dude has claimed to be affected by a Poisoner before as scum, so I wouldn’t put it past him.
Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 8:56 PM (post #83)
PWe clearly have very different perspectives on this.
I suppose so. Given either flavor or role reveals could help solve right now in a huge way and the critical town role has already flipped I just do not see it.
If nothing else you and the handful of other no-claims should have greater thoughts about the potential split. We know its absolutely AI and figuring out that split is a major factor with later claimers being more sus in the situation.
I’m not convinced my claim will be the kind of massive help you believe it will be, and if you’re looking for me to give thoughts on a split, I did already cover that to some degree last DP. The problem is that, as you already said, we know scum have asked about two characters. We shouldn’t expect that they’ve straight claimed their characters, nor that their fake claims will put them due to being on the wrong side of the split. Feels a little strange to me to focus on the split when you’ve been saying how easy it is for scum to figure out fake claims.