Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 8:55 PM (post #81)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 8:54 PM (post #79)
But I’m just done arguing this. If Kohai and Helz want my character, I’ll just give it. I’m DJT.
Hmm so 3 world leader claims. Interesting
Did mention that I was a world leader last DP.
But I’m just done arguing this. If Kohai and Helz want my character, I’ll just give it. I’m DJT.
Yesterday you never expressed you were worried about holding your flavor because it gives scum info. On top of that. Wouldent that suggest you suspect the unclaimed people? I do not see any of that from you. And then Scum have 2 asks to make their own claims with only 2 players. That feels like a lot. I would have zero problem working with that myself. Its not like Epstein has a small list of people involved or that anyone in this game is super familiar with everyone thats involved.
That first point still stands here. I believe giving away my character will give away my role, which means it gives away information that could help inform scum on available role claims. Again, just because they can’t manipulate/avoid my role anymore doesn’t mean that information doesn’t matter.
And again, it suggests I’m considering a broader set of players than I was last DP. I still don’t see what’s wrong with that.
I understand that scum may already have fake claims secured. That doesn’t mean I’m going to make it easier for them if they don’t.
Either you should be pushing very specific people for not claiming and sussing them -or- you should be snap claiming your flavor. This middle ground is just odd and inconsistent.
We clearly have very different perspectives on this.
Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 8:26 PM (post #67)
I mean, sure. But you are missing the part I am critical about here-
Yesterday you never expressed you were worried about holding your flavor because it gives scum info. On top of that. Wouldent that suggest you suspect the unclaimed people? I do not see any of that from you. And then Scum have 2 asks to make their own claims with only 2 players. That feels like a lot. I would have zero problem working with that myself. Its not like Epstein has a small list of people involved or that anyone in this game is super familiar with everyone thats involved.
What part of “I don’t want to claim because it’s easy to identify my role based on my character” was unclear? It was how I responded to your request to trade claims. That implies I was concerned about giving scum info. And yes, it suggests that at least one person without a claim could be scum. I can’t dismiss that. I was wrong about Magoroth, so now I’m reevaluating my reads. I don’t get how that’s odd, nor is it odd to avoid giving scum pertinent info that could still be used for character or role claims.
For some video game or anime or TV show people will probably know everything there is to know on the subject. That is just not the case here and suddenly your having concerns you did not have before. I would have expected you to snap claim your flavor. Claiming your role? I could see reason to hold that back. I wont say way but I get that part.
Again, unclear on why you think I didn’t express these concerns prior to now. You can expect whatever you want, but I made my concerns clear last DP. The fact that scum can’t use my role to their advantage anymore changes the calculus somewhat, but not entirely.
But to follow up. If you do think that its scum who has not claimed and just never said it who do you think it is? This is a pretty small game after all.
I haven’t come up with a new set of reads this DP. I’ll have to sit down and re-read much of last DP with the context of the flops before I do. If it’s odd to you that I haven’t directly sussed someone who hasn’t claimed yet, so be it, but at this point I’m not dismissing anyone.
Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/9/2026 at 8:25 PM (post #66)
Wait, what are you asking?
Now that I’m Vanillaized, my role is inactive. I can full claim my character and role without giving scum the opportunity to manipulate/avoid my role, though claiming would tell scum that my character and role are in the game, making their fake claims easier to craft. Helz has already given the case for why this information could be valuable. So I’m asking whether I should give it and, if so, whether that should just be character or both character and role.
Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 7:58 PM (post #61)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 6:49 PM (post #59)
Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 7:28 PM (post #54)
So just for the ping could you reveal your role and flavor? I feel both help solve the game and you have no reason to withhold either at this point. Posting this way so you get a notification.
If there are at least a few people who agree that I should do this, I will. Like I said, I see some value in keeping that info hidden, but given that I don’t have a role anymore, I’m fine with claiming if seeking that information has any kind of broad support. Luna said no, you’re saying yes, so I’m in a holding pattern atm.
My thoughts are pretty simple here. Your flavor? No reason not to claim given your reasoning was not to claim because you felt it would reveal your role which you claim to no longer have. Thats pretty absolutely a zero loss with benefit to the town given that we know flavor is AI. Kinda feels weird you would not recognize that and even ask people about if you should or should not reveal given that.
I started the DP stating that I was ready and willing to claim. If the value is there for me to claim at this point and enough people agree it’s worthwhile, I will. I have, however, already stated what I think is lost by claiming. You can disagree with that, you can say that the value of not claiming isn’t worthwhile, but you’re not the first to wade into this discussion and yours is not the only perspective on the issue. If you find it weird that I’m asking, that doesn’t really bother me.
For your role- I also feel like this helps game solve. A Vannializer + a Blackmailer feels super strong. This is doubled down on by the fact Shining had a negative utility that gave scum even more information and thats even on top of scum having an insta-win time.
Fair points, I think the balance looks a little odd and I’ve said as much myself, though it was Magoroth, not Shining, who had a negative utility role. Nonetheless, I don’t think my claiming will function as a game solve, whether you believe me or not.
With that in mind let me ask you- how do you feel about Mag1cs claim? And really.. Why in the fuck would you not flavor claim at the very least?
I’ve already explained by I’m reticent to claim. You can take that answer or leave it, it’s going to be the same: flavor and role claims both narrow the window of plausible fake claims scum could give. I don’t think Mag1c’s given a claim yet. He’s claimed to have been Blackmailed, that’s all I’ve seen.
Putting this to everyone: should I claim or no? There’s value in the information, but at least for the sake of preventing fake claims, there’s value in keeping it hidden as well. I’ll give away this much: my character is going to be pretty obvious for this theme.
Originally Posted by Helz on 10/9/2026 at 7:28 PM (post #54)
So just for the ping could you reveal your role and flavor? I feel both help solve the game and you have no reason to withhold either at this point. Posting this way so you get a notification.
If there are at least a few people who agree that I should do this, I will. Like I said, I see some value in keeping that info hidden, but given that I don’t have a role anymore, I’m fine with claiming if seeking that information has any kind of broad support. Luna said no, you’re saying yes, so I’m in a holding pattern atm.
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/9/2026 at 9:44 AM (post #22)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 5:43 AM (post #2)
Alright… so I was Vanillaized and scum have a living town player’s PM to work with for their fake claims. Love that.
You were vanillaized? Damn.
Yeah probably hold onto it for now, I personally believe you being vannilized, that's a wierd thing to make up.
That's the plan. And yeah, people can feel free to read into it if they want, but fake claiming a Vanillaizer would certainly be a choice given that any scum flip that doesn't contain a Vanillaizer would instantly implicate me.
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/9/2026 at 9:40 AM (post #20)
What does being blackmailed mean? Can't say a certain word?
That's usually what it means. Last time I recall seeing this played was in Magoroth's Amber game where Bullish (he was Oberon) was Blackmailed. Got himself modkilled by... I believe it was Casey at the time, though they swapped in for Thoth at some point.
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/endgames/posts/5o/amber-endgame
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/iso?userids=69f0e3b9dee4aca7a84cf6c9&postids=69f791e90b2f89d5f87f662a
Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 8:51 AM (post #16)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 8:50 AM (post #15)
Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 8:49 AM (post #13)
VTL: Helz
Going to need some explanation for this. Do you have pertinent information or are you just following Mag1c's lead?
I’ll explaij when I get home and nit mobile oostijg
Alright then.
Also, I'm willing to full claim if desired, especially given that I don't have my role anymore. The value in keeping it to myself at this point is just in the potential for a CC, which isn't nothing, so I'll hold off for now.
Alright… so I was Vanillaized and scum have a living town player’s PM to work with for their fake claims. Love that.
Well, I guess we wait and see then. Guess I took too long picking up my dog and getting home to get a vote up in time, but better that we have the extra time.
Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/8/2026 at 4:26 PM (post #432)
Yeah, but I think you were generally agreeing with Kohai, so I was in effect responding to both of you.
I was making a distinct point, but I won't belabor it. I'd say I don't want to distract from the DP but *waves at the nothing going on*
Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/8/2026 at 4:20 PM (post #428)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/8/2026 at 3:18 PM (post #425)
Yeah. AI slop really degrades debate quality. Beck in the DDO days yesterday u actually had to think and put effort into your arguments and do your own research
It's changed the way people engage with debate for sure. There's little sense that you actually need to dig for information, and a lot of people just take what AI search results say at face value, which is sometimes wrong or at least incomplete. It's a frustrating change of pace to be sure.
Feels like this isn't responsive to me at all since I didn't refer to it as AI slop, but fine. And I agree with 4 at least.
Yeah. AI slop really degrades debate quality. Beck in the DDO days yesterday u actually had to think and put effort into your arguments and do your own research
It's changed the way people engage with debate for sure. There's little sense that you actually need to dig for information, and a lot of people just take what AI search results say at face value, which is sometimes wrong or at least incomplete. It's a frustrating change of pace to be sure.
What I think we should do: Everyone confirm that your actions have been submitted (even if you have no actions). This gives us time to make sure everyone gets their actions before a hammer.
Doesn't seem like people have been doing this, so I'll be the first to confirm.
Well, doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere at this point. If we're all agreed that Shining makes the most sense as the most inactive player with extremely limited contribution to the DP, I can get onboard with his lynch, even if it is low-hanging fruit.
Unvote
I'm fine being the hammer on this one.
Regardless, I should be clear that I'm not adamant that Helz be the lynch this DP. Much as I don't love taking out inactives, Thoth or Shining are better choices right now, but I also don't see much value in just pressuring them for the sake of getting them to engage more or showcase some insight into the game based on what they've read. I'm trying to get a more solid read on Helz right now, but no, I'm not willing to lynch him for refusing to give up his role if that's what he decides.
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/8/2026 at 9:25 AM (post #352)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/8/2026 at 7:21 AM (post #350)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/8/2026 at 6:45 AM (post #335)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/7/2026 at 10:26 PM (post #301)
I'm headed off for the night. Like Mag1c, I'm looking for a good claim here. Hesitant to put Helz as my choice for a lynch right now, but I'd like to either be able to set him aside or make a more concerted effort to coalesce around a lynch well before the end of the DP.
Helz already claimed Ehud Barak and that he has a visiting action. Are you demanding a full claim?
Did he claim a visiting action? Honestly, I don't recall seeing it, though I'll dig back through his posts.
"I will say I am not super concerned with it revealing actions. My action you gotta do some real mental gymnastics to conclude its connection to my flavor."
He said this in 174.
I saw that, but I don't think it implies a visiting action. Possibly he's implying a night action, that's about all I can glean from it beyond a lack of obvious connection between character and role.
Originally Posted by Shining on 10/8/2026 at 9:18 AM (post #349)
Its horseshit to give mafia a whole day to plan shit in a game like this. I would imagine Pie would be fuming if he was playing Town under those conditions. We probably had our fake claims in under a day in the games we played as scum WF.
If they did get an extra day to plan, yeah, it would be pretty messed up. I can't dismiss the possibility that they did, though. And yeah, we would've been locked in by this point.
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/8/2026 at 6:45 AM (post #335)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/7/2026 at 10:26 PM (post #301)
I'm headed off for the night. Like Mag1c, I'm looking for a good claim here. Hesitant to put Helz as my choice for a lynch right now, but I'd like to either be able to set him aside or make a more concerted effort to coalesce around a lynch well before the end of the DP.
Helz already claimed Ehud Barak and that he has a visiting action. Are you demanding a full claim?
Did he claim a visiting action? Honestly, I don't recall seeing it, though I'll dig back through his posts.
Originally Posted by Shining on 10/8/2026 at 5:06 AM (post #327)
You guys always go this route with me and yet you always end up eating shit when I flip town. Whats this about inactive scum? Isn't this my town play? I get its frustrating, but theres nothing to scum read me on lol. Anyway, I reckon you will be disappointed if you force me to character/full claim.
I'm with Luna on this one. Lack of activity on your part is the major problem here, and it happens regardless of your alignment. We're often forced to work with limited information, even in later day phases. When you're this inactive, you're just a black box behaviorally.
Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/8/2026 at 3:00 AM (post #309)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 07/10/2026 at 15:45 (post #205)
Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/7/2026 at 2:53 AM (post #188)
Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 06/10/2026 at 19:53 (post #6)
I'm David Copperfield, ig I vanished the statue of liberty and my property taxes
Question is, since Noah is pretty new would he just instantly claim like this as scum? Does Mafia have a night 0 chat or something like that? It looks kinda towny for a person to claim so fast
It wouldn't be terribly unusual for mods to open up a Discord channel and invite scum in a day in advance of the start of the game, so it is entirely possible that scum have had some prep time, though I'm not assuming as much at this point. It's more a basis for me not to just straight townread claims that look good on their face.
Fair. I guess that read is a bit weaker than I’d thought. I still do thinj it’s a little strange for newbie scum to claim this fast
I've got a light townread on Noah in part for that very reason.
Originally Posted by Helz on 10/8/2026 at 1:52 AM (post #305)
I will trade you my role claim for your flavor claim.
(I kinda suspect that the group of late comers and people refusing is the pool to focus on at this point)
So far all I have to consider for a flavor split is that there seem to be world leaders and entertainers. We could legit have something of value there but scum will want to drag their feet on the subject.
Im also curious. I have never seen someone hunt a role from flavor. Has that ever even happened on this site? Like.. Is the paranoia about that actually justified by anyone's experience that has been playing here?
I didn't say I was hunting a role specifically as a result of your flavor claim. I gave my own read on you separately and said it made more sense for someone who had already partially claimed to full claim rather than out more information.
As for the trade, that would defeat the purpose on two levels. One, it would mean outing more information than I'd like before the DP ends. Two, as I've already stated, my flavor does at least somewhat indicate my role. Maybe not everyone would see it, but I'd be surprised if no one does. So what you're asking me to do is give a flavor claim that also stands a more than decent chance of being identified as a full claim.
I am willing to go so far as to say I am or was a world leader.
I'm headed off for the night. Like Mag1c, I'm looking for a good claim here. Hesitant to put Helz as my choice for a lynch right now, but I'd like to either be able to set him aside or make a more concerted effort to coalesce around a lynch well before the end of the DP.
