whiteflame

Originally Posted by wylted on 10/27/2026 at 6:14 AM (post #223)

I personally don't see what a mago or rex claim will get us.

I'm down for lynching on what we got. I also don't think my claim will change anyone's read on me one way or another so that's not going to help narrow down scum either.

Alright, so we have:

WF - Alan Wilson (South Carolina) - Governor

Wylted - Ken Paxton (Texas) - ???

Banana - - Watcher (watched WF NP1, no one visited)

Thoth - Keith Kautz (Wyoming) - 2X Adjudicator (failed NP1)

Kohai/Luna2.0 - Gentner Drummond - Pretender

REF - ??? - ???

Mago - ??? - ???

What's your preference atm?

Yeah, I agree with Luna and Wylted here, the problem is a lack of participation on any level beyond just being defensive. I haven't seen much at all in the way of reads from you, which makes it difficult to get into your head. The Watcher claim isn't bad, and it tracks with what Thoth has said about his role failing despite targeting me. It would be a risky claim given that there were still several unknowns in play who could have visited me. That is in your favor, but it's not reason enough to solidly townread you.

I'm knocking off here for the night. At least for right now, despite everything I've said so far, I think Thoth is more likely town than not. I'm not solid on that, and I have plenty I'm still concerned about despite largely feeling like he's being honest with me in his responses, but given that it doesn't look like there's a lot of protection in this game, I wouldn't be too surprised if he's the only protective role. I think someone would've CC'd him by now if not.

If people are on overnight, it'd be a good time to start kicking the tires on other players. I'll rejoin in the morning.

I'm seriously just trying to get a handle on your thinking, Thoth, so I'm just going to put the focus in one place. You don't have to respond to the above, just address this.

Why did you want other claims to come in before you were willing to claim? Statements like "it will do more harm than good until more info comes out" imply that even stating that your night action had failed was dangerous prior to getting more claims. Walk me through the logic there. I get that you wanted to see if someone would just claim that they had interfered with your action, but why wait? What was the danger? What was the value in waiting? I get not wanting to claim, but I don't get this.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/26/2026 at 11:22 PM (post #215)

and Pie said that he can only answer for specific scenarios.

In the scenario I just mentioned of someone Rolestopping my target, my action would fail

So then, it's functionally equivalent to someone else RBing you. The only difference is who they targeted. By now, if you've been asking Pie the right questions, you'd know that it was impossible for me to have RB'd you.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/26/2026 at 11:18 PM (post #213)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/26/2026 at 7:14 PM (post #198)

Right, so what I meant by, 'kinda sorta got info', is that I definitely had the information that my action failed, but was not sure that this information was useful.

*sigh* For future reference, "I got RB'd" is not what I'd refer to as "info." It tells us the existence of someone who can RB. That's it. No one, in all the games I've played on here, has claimed they have info because they were unable to use their night action.

I didn't know that I had been roleblocked, and I suppose that I still don't know that. At least when I posted this, and probably still now, there were many reasons why my action could have failed, and at least some of those would likely hurt town if scum put the puzzle pieces together.

You know that your night action failed. You know that there are only so many ways that could have happened. What scenarios have you talked through with Pie up to this point? Because I've talked through several with him already and I know there are limited circumstances where your role could have been interfered with. Anyone could do that, he answers hypotheticals. So no, I don't particularly understand why going through those hypotheticals openly is a problem, especially given that you've already claimed your role.

"How does your claim help scum?" The default assumption is that claims help scum, or otherwise we would massclaim at the start of day 1. Which I would actually like to try sometime to see how badly it fails, but I don't doubt that it would implode spectacularly.

Why are you turning this into an abstract question? You breadcrumbed that you had information, so you had to know that we'd eventually want to find out what that was. You even said that you'd be willing to provide that information if enough claims came out. What value was there to receiving that information prior to your claim?

If someone claimed to have Rolestopped you, assuming that their action had precedence over mine. In this case, the mystery of why my action failed would probably be solved, and there would be no reason for me to claim my role and thereby out that there was a mystery from my point of view.

Again, though: why did you need to wait to see if someone claimed Rolestopper and selected me as a target? Why not just out that you'd been RB'd and see how people responded?

Feel like I'm at a bit of an impasse here, and Thoth being absent isn't helping. As far as I'm aware, Rex and Mago haven't claimed at all and Wylted only claimed his character. If we're going to seek any more claims, we might as well get them all, so I think we either have to commit to finishing out the mass claim or make a decision with the info we have. Got about 15 hours left I think.

Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/26/2026 at 9:46 PM (post #207)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 27/10/2026 at 2:03 (post #205)

I'll add two things to my thinking that put Thoth in the potentially town camp.

Unvote

I'd like to talk this through as much as possible before just pushing Thoth or anyone else.

First thing:

Back in post 35 last DP, Thoth said this:

imma breadcrumb for the sake of breadcrumbing that I asked Pie a question about my role and the answer was the opposite of what I expected.

In response to a potentially unrelated question from Magoroth this DP, Thoth said this in #194:

I asked him one minute after he sent me my role card because I had heard different answers in different places about whether or not Strongman overrides Commuter

It's not necessarily the opposite of what he expected, since he said he'd heard different answers in different places, but there's at least something here that could explain that early post. Can't say whether he actually did breadcrumb this interaction or came up with it more recently as a way to explain that, but the latter assumes more care and attention to detail than I'd expect from Thoth.

Second thing:

Thoth says chose me as a target. He did so after Banana had claimed and said she Watched me. That makes more sense if he's town than if he's scum. In the latter scenario, I would have to believe that he saw Banana's claim, realized that claiming a visit on me would be a problem, and shifted to claiming that he'd been RB'd after asking Pie whether that would still register as a visit. Again, not what I'd expect from scum Thoth. He hadn't claimed his target yet and would likely just play it safe, claimed he'd targeted someone else and been RB'd.

These aren't solid townreads, but given what I know of Thoth's scum meta, they don't fit the pattern.

He stated before that he was surprised by the answer.

And I'm of two minds about that, since it's unclear why he was surprised when he already knew there were different answers in different places. That's not why I'm townreading it. I'm townreading the decision to revisit it this far out from the original statement.

I'll add two things to my thinking that put Thoth in the potentially town camp.

Unvote

I'd like to talk this through as much as possible before just pushing Thoth or anyone else.

First thing:

Back in post 35 last DP, Thoth said this:

imma breadcrumb for the sake of breadcrumbing that I asked Pie a question about my role and the answer was the opposite of what I expected.

In response to a potentially unrelated question from Magoroth this DP, Thoth said this in #194:

I asked him one minute after he sent me my role card because I had heard different answers in different places about whether or not Strongman overrides Commuter

It's not necessarily the opposite of what he expected, since he said he'd heard different answers in different places, but there's at least something here that could explain that early post. Can't say whether he actually did breadcrumb this interaction or came up with it more recently as a way to explain that, but the latter assumes more care and attention to detail than I'd expect from Thoth.

Second thing:

Thoth says chose me as a target. He did so after Banana had claimed and said she Watched me. That makes more sense if he's town than if he's scum. In the latter scenario, I would have to believe that he saw Banana's claim, realized that claiming a visit on me would be a problem, and shifted to claiming that he'd been RB'd after asking Pie whether that would still register as a visit. Again, not what I'd expect from scum Thoth. He hadn't claimed his target yet and would likely just play it safe, claimed he'd targeted someone else and been RB'd.

These aren't solid townreads, but given what I know of Thoth's scum meta, they don't fit the pattern.

I don’t want to overfocus on this, but I can’t be the only one who sees all this as odd. Maybe Thoth did genuinely think he could wait out a town RB claim and confirm that he’d been the target, but that wouldn’t have town confirmed either of them. That would’ve just confirmed that Thoth had a role that failed and that someone else had an RB, town or scum. I guess it’s confirmation of a sort, but not particularly useful and weirder to wait for since he would have gotten the same result by just saying he’d been RB’d and waiting for someone to confirm that they’d done it.

I’ve said my piece on this and I’m dropping the issue until others come in and give their impressions or until I get more insight from Thoth into why he did things this way.

I guess the point is if anyone claimed to roleblock him or if you claimed something at odds with his result, he would have some useful information to share. Like you could confirm someone’s night action that way.

So he was banking on someone openly claiming a town RB? That seems like a pretty weak reason to withhold even stating that he’d been RB’d, man. Seems like he could confirm that before someone outs a role like this instead of waiting and hoping they out themselves first. He didn’t have a result, so that’s out. And I’d already claimed, so that’s out.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/26/2026 at 8:04 PM (post #197)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/26/2026 at 5:33 PM (post #167)

I thought I might have been roleblocked or you were affected by some ability that blocked my Adjudicator, but I did not think the answer was worth claiming for.

That doesn’t really answer my question. You said you “kinda sorta got info”, so I’d like to understand, what info did you think you got? You already knew by the time you posted this that I’d claimed to be responsible for shifting the lynch, so I’m still unclear what info you thought you’d gotten beyond you being RB’d by someone, which didn’t require any claims to clarify.

Nothing in particular, just any indication that claiming my result, or lack thereof, might put other puzzle pieces together or if it might help scum.

I don’t get this. So you held off on claiming because… it would have done more harm than good to inform us all you’d been RB’d? I don’t see what information could’ve been garnered from getting more or different claims beyond banking on a town RB. How does your claim help scum?

What were you looking for from previous posts? What would have informed your decision to claim?

See last response.

Same lack of clarity. Give me a scenario where you could’ve looked up, seen someone post something, and decided not to claim.

I asked you some questions in #167. I'd like to see some responses.

Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/26/2026 at 7:53 PM (post #187)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 27/10/2026 at 0:53 (post #186)

Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/26/2026 at 7:46 PM (post #182)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 27/10/2026 at 0:43 (post #179)

Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/26/2026 at 7:38 PM (post #176)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 27/10/2026 at 0:37 (post #175)

Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/26/2026 at 7:31 PM (post #171)

If Thoth was scum - what exactly is he trying to do here? Give information that is totally useless and leads us nowhere? It feels more like a town mind set than a scum one.

I don't get this townread on Thoth. Is it literally just because his role doesn't give information? Or is it because he says he got RB'd? Or both? If this is more than WIFOM, I'd like to know what that is.

He first told us that he had information, and then when he reveals that information it turns out it’s this really ambiguous thing that could mean almost anything. I don’t see the scum motivation in that. It looks more like a Townie thinking he may have found something but not being sure how to interpret it

I disagree. It functions as a reason not to pursue him for a claim until more claims get out on the table, i.e. giving scum as much information as possible before he's forced to claim. And then his claim functions as a reason to put attention elsewhere and provides a pretty good likelihood that he'll be RB'd again, meaning he likely won't confirm his result next DP.

This is not likely in my opinion. Seems like a lot of effort for something that is of limited value. I’m not sure I’ve seen this happen

Dude, I just explained the scenario. It's not a lot of work just to claim you have a role that could give some information. I'm not fixating on Thoth being scum, but this isn't a lot of effort to set up, and much of what he's said about his role does not line up with what his role does or the foreknowledge that he'd been RB'd.

I get your point, I just don’t think this is likely. I wouldn’t do this as scum.

The question isn't what you would do as scum. It's what Thoth would do as scum.

Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/26/2026 at 7:46 PM (post #182)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 27/10/2026 at 0:43 (post #179)

Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/26/2026 at 7:38 PM (post #176)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 27/10/2026 at 0:37 (post #175)

Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/26/2026 at 7:31 PM (post #171)

If Thoth was scum - what exactly is he trying to do here? Give information that is totally useless and leads us nowhere? It feels more like a town mind set than a scum one.

I don't get this townread on Thoth. Is it literally just because his role doesn't give information? Or is it because he says he got RB'd? Or both? If this is more than WIFOM, I'd like to know what that is.

He first told us that he had information, and then when he reveals that information it turns out it’s this really ambiguous thing that could mean almost anything. I don’t see the scum motivation in that. It looks more like a Townie thinking he may have found something but not being sure how to interpret it

I disagree. It functions as a reason not to pursue him for a claim until more claims get out on the table, i.e. giving scum as much information as possible before he's forced to claim. And then his claim functions as a reason to put attention elsewhere and provides a pretty good likelihood that he'll be RB'd again, meaning he likely won't confirm his result next DP.

This is not likely in my opinion. Seems like a lot of effort for something that is of limited value. I’m not sure I’ve seen this happen

Dude, I just explained the scenario. It's not a lot of work just to claim you have a role that could give some information. I'm not fixating on Thoth being scum, but this isn't a lot of effort to set up, and much of what he's said about his role does not line up with what his role does or the foreknowledge that he'd been RB'd.

Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/26/2026 at 7:38 PM (post #176)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 27/10/2026 at 0:37 (post #175)

Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/26/2026 at 7:31 PM (post #171)

If Thoth was scum - what exactly is he trying to do here? Give information that is totally useless and leads us nowhere? It feels more like a town mind set than a scum one.

I don't get this townread on Thoth. Is it literally just because his role doesn't give information? Or is it because he says he got RB'd? Or both? If this is more than WIFOM, I'd like to know what that is.

He first told us that he had information, and then when he reveals that information it turns out it’s this really ambiguous thing that could mean almost anything. I don’t see the scum motivation in that. It looks more like a Townie thinking he may have found something but not being sure how to interpret it

I disagree. It functions as a reason not to pursue him for a claim until more claims get out on the table, i.e. giving scum as much information as possible before he's forced to claim. And then his claim functions as a reason to put attention elsewhere and provides a pretty good likelihood that he'll be RB'd again, meaning he likely won't confirm his result next DP.

Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/26/2026 at 7:31 PM (post #171)

If Thoth was scum - what exactly is he trying to do here? Give information that is totally useless and leads us nowhere? It feels more like a town mind set than a scum one.

I don't get this townread on Thoth. Is it literally just because his role doesn't give information? Or is it because he says he got RB'd? Or both? If this is more than WIFOM, I'd like to know what that is.

Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/26/2026 at 7:19 PM (post #168)

Sorry for not checking in, been busy with other things. What did I miss

Thoth and Banana's claims.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/24/2026 at 3:43 PM (post #29)

I kinda sorta got info last night

Not opposed to a mass claim

I’m asking about this. What information did you think you’d gotten from your role being blocked? And then you said this:

I think it will do more harm than good until more info comes out

What info were you seeking? Later, you said this:

Let me read up and then I will think about it

What were you looking for from previous posts? What would have informed your decision to claim?

While we’re at it, have you asked Pie about order of operations here with your role? Like, what could block you?

Originally Posted by Thoth on 10/26/2026 at 5:52 PM (post #157)

I am Keith Kautz, 2x Adjudicator. I can commute someone at night. Justification is that I have reviewed a metric fuck ton of decisions and often reconsidered them or given someone a second chance, and can also make someone leave the proceedings (not sure if that means escorting someone out of the courtroom or not).

To my surprise, Pie said this would even block Strongman or strengthened actions, which makes me think scum do not have strongman since that rather defeats the point of Strongman imo.

I used this on whiteflame last not and was told that my action failed. Possibly useful information since whiteflame’s claimed role would not do that.

This was probably an RB if what you’re saying is true.

Why did you wait for other claims before claiming this?

Originally Posted by RexFavilla on 10/26/2026 at 5:54 PM (post #158)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/26/2026 at 4:25 PM (post #153)

Originally Posted by wylted on 10/26/2026 at 4:20 PM (post #152)

Part of me thinks there is potential that the scum team wanted him in chat and that's the reason for the NK. I know Kohai's reaction almost clears him, but it could be me misreading it, and to top it off if anyone was going to specifically kill lunatic so he was in the scum chat it would definitely be you, so it's fucking with my head but I don't want to consider a whiteflame lunatic team right now,

Kohai would pretty much have to have known my role existed in the game for him to be scum.

Why? He could have just been blitzed at the end of the DP, hence the outsized reaction to being suddenly lynched. Usually he's lynched as town all the time and doesn't react like that. When your lynched as scumit usually feels worse. Scum would know his slot was surviving, because the lynch was announced as Noah. Then they had all NP to basically pick Kohai's replacement via the NK.

I don’t think Kohai continues to insist he was town after he was lynched in that case. The shift to Noah was not announced until the following day. Again: you’d have to believe scum were informed of the existence of a role that could reverse the lynch, or that Kohai was just adamant out of pure frustration after he’d recognized that he’d been lynched. I don’t buy the latter scenario and I don’t think Pie gives scum that information. That’s modpsych, but I think it’s well-informed.

Originally Posted by wylted on 10/26/2026 at 4:38 PM (post #154)

My concern was you and him being scum together, it's in the back of my head and probably just my own paranoia. If he was also coincidentally going through something personal, than your NK of lunatic to recruit him to your team makes sense.

Anyway it's paranoia and probably not something we should engage with too seriously.

I said this earlier when someone else mentioned the possibility. I kind of get the paranoia. My main knock against this particular scenario is that I wouldn’t do that to him after 4 straight games of his being scum. That’d be seriously cruel, especially given I’ve been through it before. I had a hard enough time convincing him to side with scum when he wasn’t coming off of this many games as scum, so I’d imagine this would be damn near impossible.

Originally Posted by wylted on 10/26/2026 at 4:20 PM (post #152)

Part of me thinks there is potential that the scum team wanted him in chat and that's the reason for the NK. I know Kohai's reaction almost clears him, but it could be me misreading it, and to top it off if anyone was going to specifically kill lunatic so he was in the scum chat it would definitely be you, so it's fucking with my head but I don't want to consider a whiteflame lunatic team right now,

Kohai would pretty much have to have known my role existed in the game for him to be scum. Do we think it's at all likely that Pie informed him of it? I asked him well before using it if he was going to say outright that there was a twilight phase during which I would choose, but he told me it was just 15 minutes post-lynch that I'd get a chance to select someone else or NL. He was absent anyway so it didn't matter, but I don't think he'd tell me that if the scum team was somehow informed that there was a Governor or similar role in play.

Originally Posted by wylted on 10/26/2026 at 3:52 PM (post #150)

What's your theory on why lunatic was picked to be the NK?

Been trying to figure that one out. I don't think he did anything particularly notable DP1, either in the softclaims department or just establishing himself as town. The fear kill is a possibility, but it's weird that scum would focus on that given his lack of activity. It's not like was actively working to solve the game at the time, though Luna is known to perk up and really work hard to figure things out. It's also notable that Pie replaced Luna in for Kohai. If it was just a personality fear kill, then that choice would have to have pissed off the scum team.

That's a long way for me to say I'm still scratching my head over it. Maybe they just randomized among unclaimed players? Maybe they thought Luna's absence made it more likely he was hiding a PR of note?

Originally Posted by Banana on 10/26/2026 at 3:03 PM (post #148)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/26/2026 at 12:59 PM (post #146)

Originally Posted by Banana on 10/26/2026 at 2:38 PM (post #144)

i am the watcher. np1 i watched whiteflame since he was my biggest town read, no one visited him. i didnt want to claim but i dont want the dp wasted focusing on me...

justification is basically peter neronha is in charge of over sight, seeing who touched what and putting it on paper, therefor i am the watcher.

can we move on past me now?

Watcher, eh? Could you lay out your reasoning for townreading me?

partilly by proxy of your dp1 interaction with mago who seemed scummy to me pressing town, mostly gut based on the way you have been solving and asking questions. u seem the most informed person here and u have been pressing the game forward the most.

Alright, that tracks with what you said last DP, too.

You're up. I don't like the prolonged absence, nor the statement that you'd read up and then the lack of follow-up.

VTL Thoth

Originally Posted by Banana on 10/26/2026 at 2:38 PM (post #144)

i am the watcher. np1 i watched whiteflame since he was my biggest town read, no one visited him. i didnt want to claim but i dont want the dp wasted focusing on me...

justification is basically peter neronha is in charge of over sight, seeing who touched what and putting it on paper, therefor i am the watcher.

can we move on past me now?

Watcher, eh? Could you lay out your reasoning for townreading me?

I’ll give her at least some time to post more than once with pressure on her. We have a day left, I’m not going to waste it.

Originally Posted by wylted on 10/26/2026 at 12:21 PM (post #140)

I wish I believed any of that. Honestly.

I see privileged information coming in and semiconductor plants, health research facilities and some big retailers like apple and PetSmart appear to be looking into use Opportunity zone funds to simultaneously avoid gains tax and bring manufacturing home.

Not that companies have capital gains, but they seem to be some what adjacent as they can move to opportunity zones and those using OZ money to avoid that capital gains can bring in apartment complexes, Starbucks etc. near by.

If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to be wrong. I know enough about the effects these policies are having on certain markets to at least heavily doubt the view that this is or will be a major success.