whiteflame

I'm not dismissing any of those points (I'm going to stop the long quote crawl for a minute), they're all among my considerations. It's entirely possible that the manipulation of your role was somehow done by Rex and his role, which I'll point out, would also mean there's another scum JOAT in the mix. Maybe I'm just overthinking it and Mag1c's role was actually responsible. There's a lot of behavioral points in your favor, and like Kohai said earlier, I'm tempted to just vote him out of sheer frustration for his lack of participation. He's made it virtually impossible to read him, so we're having to dance around his behavior and focus on yours and Mag1c's instead. It's the same boat I got into with Earth a few games back and he won there as scum because Thoth came off as too scummy for me to ignore.

Anyway, I'm pausing here. I'll wait to hear back from Thoth at this point.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/22/2026 at 11:29 AM (post #1242)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 8/22/2026 at 9:21 AM (post #1240)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/22/2026 at 11:20 AM (post #1239)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 8/22/2026 at 9:12 AM (post #1236)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/22/2026 at 11:05 AM (post #1234)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 8/22/2026 at 8:52 AM (post #1232)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/22/2026 at 10:34 AM (post #1231)

Originally Posted by Mikal on 8/22/2026 at 8:30 AM (post #1230)

If it weren't for the bad result. Id insta vote rex but im stuck on it. Its just way to easy of a way to confirm magic and himself.

I mean there's a million ways to explain that, including one in the flip. We've discussed them all, yet to keep stamping your foot and looking for ways to create a way I could be scum. Like I would understand your argument slightly better if I was the one who claimed the cop result. BUT KOHAI DID. I have no control over how he got the result he did. Its just insane man. Every reason you can come up with to scum read me you will. There's literally no point. Just lynch me and get it over with.

I'm going to do a deeper dive before I make a call, but I'd like to get into the result more along the way.

So just walk me through this. The result Kohai received would conceivably have been affected by something like a GF or a Lawyer. We know Mag1c wasn't the former. We do know Mag1c had the Drug Dealer role, which could have affected the results received by Kohai if he'd known what role to ask about. That being said, you've stated straight up that your role doesn't even have a name, so Mag1c likely couldn't have just called you "Cop" and had that been enough to satisfy the Drug Dealer's specific condition. I guess it's possible that Thoth would give some leeway there and modify the result, and the role does say that it will also modify information the target gives, not just receives.

Why don't you ask Thoth? I don't know the answer of how the drug deal works any more than you do. Straight up ask him how it would interact with a result, instead of expecting me to have the answer for a result I myself didn't even receive. Like I said, I wasn't the one claiming the innocent on magic, kohai was. I would understand the onus being on me to explain that if I was the one who claimed an innocent on him, but it just didn't happen.

It's your role, dude. You should be able to ask Thoth what, specifically, the Drug Dealer would have to call your role as in order for it to effectively change the result that Kohai received. I can ask a generalized question about whether a role like yours could just be called the "Cop" by the Drug Dealer and have the result changed, and I already have, but you should be able to get that answer tailored to your role, specifically.

I have already asked him, he isn't on right now. But you should be asking him if your the one with the problem with the result is my point. I asked him specifically "How would magic's drug deal work with my role" If you want to ask him the same one you should phrase is like "How would magics drug deal work with roles like a hypothetical cop who sends investigations to others" or something like that.

Like I said, dude, I did ask him. It's a question with multiple hypotheticals from my end. It's a question with one from yours.

I am just saying to weigh the favor of me being responsible for the false result you have to believe that there is 2 JOATs (Something rarely seen in games), that I am exactly a 1x messenger, because if I was more than 1x and scum, makes literally no sense for me not to send someone a result. And if you are buying that you have to buy why as scum I would use a 1x messenger in a JOAT role over any thing else when we KNOW town is OP as fuck. None of it makes sense, and to disregard the drug deal, (which is arguably the most powerful role in the JOAT list), is to play from the definitely weaker side of the fence. I've also floated other theories, like my results possibly being insane because I am third party. So idk man, you can understand my fatalism that mikal is this convinced I am scum and doesn't seem to be considering Rex in the slightest, and now you are harping on the same points as him.

I have a hard time believing that Thoth gave one scum member a role that he'd publicly reveal through an Informed Town player, so yes, I believe there very well could be two JOATs (it's not that uncommon, particularly with this many investigatives) to give scum more utility beyond the Tailor while drawing attention to it. That doesn't mean you'd have to necessarily be a 1X Messenger, but it does mean you'd have to have a role akin to it, and if you're a JOAT, then yes, I believe it would be 1X. A lot of the rest of this is WIFOM. If I was scum, I would at least have strongly considered the Tailor, but its reveal kind of gives away any game scum could have wanted to play with it. If you're in this boat, you probably didn't have many other options anyway. A Tailor is a big deal and Thoth wasn't likely to load the player who got it down with other huge roles.

And yes, I am considering the possibility that your role is just Insane Cop.

I understand if it's frustrating, but I'm going to kick the tires on theories before I vote anywhere. You can't expect me to just ignore these concerns or refocus elsewhere because, like it or not, you've posted way more than Rex. We have a lot more to consider with you.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/22/2026 at 11:24 AM (post #1241)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 8/22/2026 at 9:16 AM (post #1237)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/22/2026 at 11:06 AM (post #1235)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 8/22/2026 at 9:05 AM (post #1233)

So Mag1c was pretty clearly falling on his own sword at the end there. He had to know that claiming the JK and saying he targeted the player who both claimed Link and claimed a successful night action would be a huge risk. Not saying that he knew from the moment he claimed that he was going to get lynched, but he clearly knew that the writing was on the wall if we bought into it wylted's claim at all.

Looking through his last few pages, I'm mainly wondering if his caps locked "LETS MAKE A DEAL" posts were more performative or real. Was that just outright desperation play knowing that he'd be fucked given how many people were pairing Luna and him, or was this some last minute distancing?

100% last minute distancing dude. Dude knew he was caught and about to be lynched. Since when do we ever trust someone whose known scum in that scenario?

It's not about whether I "trust" him, it's about what I think he was trying to do here. If he really believed this was the end, then I don't have to trust anything, I can just note that he was trying to get the TP on the same page to secure a vote that he probably wouldn't get anyway. A frustrated Mag1c might do just that.

Magic is calculated as fuck, I am not buying that he was frustrated. I saw him work wonders in Ted Lasso. Town magic gets frustrated, as you saw with the rage quit a few games ago. Anything magic is doing in the final throws of death is planned to make me look bad lol.

You think if I was scum with him I would sign off on any of that? Also you have seen me resign for way less, you think if I was magics scum partner I wouldn't have resigned after mikal/wylted got mod confirmation?

Given the circumstances, I'm not quite as sure that Mag1c was being calculated here. The comparison to a game where he carried scum to a win feels a bit off since, here, he wasn't exactly in a position to do anything other than direct attention. Maybe that's what he was doing. Maybe he was just mad that he was the first scum eliminated. Honestly, haven't seen many games where he goes down early as scum, so it's hard to say.

And no, I don't think you'd sign off on that. It's less a matter of what you'd approve and more a matter of what he'd do regardless of what anyone said. Would you resign in that circumstance? Maybe. Rex's lack of activity doesn't help his case and if I was in your shoes, I would've at least tried to swing a vote against him like you're doing. Not saying that makes you scum, just saying I don't buy into the whole "I'd have given up by now" position with so many of us questioning the Unjester coming into this DP.

Still, it's a nice experiment and I think something like this could work with some tweaking.

Yeah, things were pretty messy with this one. Didn't help that I'm almost always scum and people regularly feel the need to check me, which would either have been really good for me or really bad.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/22/2026 at 11:20 AM (post #1239)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 8/22/2026 at 9:12 AM (post #1236)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/22/2026 at 11:05 AM (post #1234)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 8/22/2026 at 8:52 AM (post #1232)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/22/2026 at 10:34 AM (post #1231)

Originally Posted by Mikal on 8/22/2026 at 8:30 AM (post #1230)

If it weren't for the bad result. Id insta vote rex but im stuck on it. Its just way to easy of a way to confirm magic and himself.

I mean there's a million ways to explain that, including one in the flip. We've discussed them all, yet to keep stamping your foot and looking for ways to create a way I could be scum. Like I would understand your argument slightly better if I was the one who claimed the cop result. BUT KOHAI DID. I have no control over how he got the result he did. Its just insane man. Every reason you can come up with to scum read me you will. There's literally no point. Just lynch me and get it over with.

I'm going to do a deeper dive before I make a call, but I'd like to get into the result more along the way.

So just walk me through this. The result Kohai received would conceivably have been affected by something like a GF or a Lawyer. We know Mag1c wasn't the former. We do know Mag1c had the Drug Dealer role, which could have affected the results received by Kohai if he'd known what role to ask about. That being said, you've stated straight up that your role doesn't even have a name, so Mag1c likely couldn't have just called you "Cop" and had that been enough to satisfy the Drug Dealer's specific condition. I guess it's possible that Thoth would give some leeway there and modify the result, and the role does say that it will also modify information the target gives, not just receives.

Why don't you ask Thoth? I don't know the answer of how the drug deal works any more than you do. Straight up ask him how it would interact with a result, instead of expecting me to have the answer for a result I myself didn't even receive. Like I said, I wasn't the one claiming the innocent on magic, kohai was. I would understand the onus being on me to explain that if I was the one who claimed an innocent on him, but it just didn't happen.

It's your role, dude. You should be able to ask Thoth what, specifically, the Drug Dealer would have to call your role as in order for it to effectively change the result that Kohai received. I can ask a generalized question about whether a role like yours could just be called the "Cop" by the Drug Dealer and have the result changed, and I already have, but you should be able to get that answer tailored to your role, specifically.

I have already asked him, he isn't on right now. But you should be asking him if your the one with the problem with the result is my point. I asked him specifically "How would magic's drug deal work with my role" If you want to ask him the same one you should phrase is like "How would magics drug deal work with roles like a hypothetical cop who sends investigations to others" or something like that.

Like I said, dude, I did ask him. It's a question with multiple hypotheticals from my end. It's a question with one from yours.

I'll wait to hear back from Thoth at least before I give my thoughts on who I'm favoring here. I don't want to give Rex credit for much since, let's face it, he's been largely absent and there's not a lot to glean from his posts aside from his often calling for Banana to shoot him. That's the only thing that's making me second guess my read on his Unjester.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/22/2026 at 11:06 AM (post #1235)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 8/22/2026 at 9:05 AM (post #1233)

So Mag1c was pretty clearly falling on his own sword at the end there. He had to know that claiming the JK and saying he targeted the player who both claimed Link and claimed a successful night action would be a huge risk. Not saying that he knew from the moment he claimed that he was going to get lynched, but he clearly knew that the writing was on the wall if we bought into it wylted's claim at all.

Looking through his last few pages, I'm mainly wondering if his caps locked "LETS MAKE A DEAL" posts were more performative or real. Was that just outright desperation play knowing that he'd be fucked given how many people were pairing Luna and him, or was this some last minute distancing?

100% last minute distancing dude. Dude knew he was caught and about to be lynched. Since when do we ever trust someone whose known scum in that scenario?

It's not about whether I "trust" him, it's about what I think he was trying to do here. If he really believed this was the end, then I don't have to trust anything, I can just note that he was trying to get the TP on the same page to secure a vote that he probably wouldn't get anyway. A frustrated Mag1c might do just that.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/22/2026 at 11:05 AM (post #1234)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 8/22/2026 at 8:52 AM (post #1232)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/22/2026 at 10:34 AM (post #1231)

Originally Posted by Mikal on 8/22/2026 at 8:30 AM (post #1230)

If it weren't for the bad result. Id insta vote rex but im stuck on it. Its just way to easy of a way to confirm magic and himself.

I mean there's a million ways to explain that, including one in the flip. We've discussed them all, yet to keep stamping your foot and looking for ways to create a way I could be scum. Like I would understand your argument slightly better if I was the one who claimed the cop result. BUT KOHAI DID. I have no control over how he got the result he did. Its just insane man. Every reason you can come up with to scum read me you will. There's literally no point. Just lynch me and get it over with.

I'm going to do a deeper dive before I make a call, but I'd like to get into the result more along the way.

So just walk me through this. The result Kohai received would conceivably have been affected by something like a GF or a Lawyer. We know Mag1c wasn't the former. We do know Mag1c had the Drug Dealer role, which could have affected the results received by Kohai if he'd known what role to ask about. That being said, you've stated straight up that your role doesn't even have a name, so Mag1c likely couldn't have just called you "Cop" and had that been enough to satisfy the Drug Dealer's specific condition. I guess it's possible that Thoth would give some leeway there and modify the result, and the role does say that it will also modify information the target gives, not just receives.

Why don't you ask Thoth? I don't know the answer of how the drug deal works any more than you do. Straight up ask him how it would interact with a result, instead of expecting me to have the answer for a result I myself didn't even receive. Like I said, I wasn't the one claiming the innocent on magic, kohai was. I would understand the onus being on me to explain that if I was the one who claimed an innocent on him, but it just didn't happen.

It's your role, dude. You should be able to ask Thoth what, specifically, the Drug Dealer would have to call your role as in order for it to effectively change the result that Kohai received. I can ask a generalized question about whether a role like yours could just be called the "Cop" by the Drug Dealer and have the result changed, and I already have, but you should be able to get that answer tailored to your role, specifically.

So Mag1c was pretty clearly falling on his own sword at the end there. He had to know that claiming the JK and saying he targeted the player who both claimed Link and claimed a successful night action would be a huge risk. Not saying that he knew from the moment he claimed that he was going to get lynched, but he clearly knew that the writing was on the wall if we bought into it wylted's claim at all.

Looking through his last few pages, I'm mainly wondering if his caps locked "LETS MAKE A DEAL" posts were more performative or real. Was that just outright desperation play knowing that he'd be fucked given how many people were pairing Luna and him, or was this some last minute distancing?

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/22/2026 at 10:34 AM (post #1231)

Originally Posted by Mikal on 8/22/2026 at 8:30 AM (post #1230)

If it weren't for the bad result. Id insta vote rex but im stuck on it. Its just way to easy of a way to confirm magic and himself.

I mean there's a million ways to explain that, including one in the flip. We've discussed them all, yet to keep stamping your foot and looking for ways to create a way I could be scum. Like I would understand your argument slightly better if I was the one who claimed the cop result. BUT KOHAI DID. I have no control over how he got the result he did. Its just insane man. Every reason you can come up with to scum read me you will. There's literally no point. Just lynch me and get it over with.

I'm going to do a deeper dive before I make a call, but I'd like to get into the result more along the way.

So just walk me through this. The result Kohai received would conceivably have been affected by something like a GF or a Lawyer. We know Mag1c wasn't the former. We do know Mag1c had the Drug Dealer role, which could have affected the results received by Kohai if he'd known what role to ask about. That being said, you've stated straight up that your role doesn't even have a name, so Mag1c likely couldn't have just called you "Cop" and had that been enough to satisfy the Drug Dealer's specific condition. I guess it's possible that Thoth would give some leeway there and modify the result, and the role does say that it will also modify information the target gives, not just receives.

I'm going to leave it here for the night and revisit this in the morning. Hopefully by then, Rex will at least have chimed in.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/21/2026 at 11:07 PM (post #1205)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 8/21/2026 at 9:03 PM (post #1198)

Really, the balance being dramatically off on purpose is the main concern I have, but we've been leaving out what is technically another investigative role: Banana's. She effectively copped be innocent at the cost of her own elimination. That's two roles that give results relating to alignment, and two giving results that relate to movement. Adding a third onto alignment, particularly one that also seemingly confirms the user, seems like dramatic overkill.

Like Mikal, I'm going to sleep on it.

Technically informed is an investigative too.

1. mikals role
2. my role
3. bananas role
4. kohais role
5. wylteds role

Even if you think I am lying that’s still 4 investigative roles, 3 if you think it’s a stretch to count informed as investigative. 3 is still a lot of investigative roles. No matter how you spin it, it’s confirmed there is an overwhelming amount of investigative roles in this game.

Can't say I agree that the Informed is investigative, but I guess it is at least somewhat akin to a Role Cop. Can't say I agree it's on the same scale as including another Cop who effectively self-confirms to another target.

Originally Posted by Insomniac on 8/21/2026 at 11:06 PM (post #1204)

Hold up. There’s one big question mark. Why would scum use a tailor message to confirm one as town instead of giving me a fake red check? Mafia would have won much faster if they’d have given me a red check

I disagree. If scum had given you a fake red check and the target of that red check had then confirmed themselves or otherwise been confirmed by outside investigation, that would have risked giving the game away. Given that it was do or die, we wouldn't have all rushed to lynch someone you got a red check on, anyway.

Originally Posted by Insomniac on 8/21/2026 at 11:04 PM (post #1199)

One thing that bothers me: Why wouldn’t scum use a tailor

Because it was publicly revealed to be in the game and we'd all be paranoid over it whether they used it or not.

Should say "copped me innocent," damn I'm tired.

Really, the balance being dramatically off on purpose is the main concern I have, but we've been leaving out what is technically another investigative role: Banana's. She effectively copped be innocent at the cost of her own elimination. That's two roles that give results relating to alignment, and two giving results that relate to movement. Adding a third onto alignment, particularly one that also seemingly confirms the user, seems like dramatic overkill.

Like Mikal, I'm going to sleep on it.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/21/2026 at 10:56 PM (post #1187)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 8/21/2026 at 8:55 PM (post #1185)

Originally Posted by Mikal on 8/21/2026 at 10:53 PM (post #1183)

Wait it has to be luna

Caroler

Watcher

Tracker

All confirmed

And a 1x cop lol

Didn't think about that

Yup. I think you’re right. If the balance somehow includes both a Caroler and a Cop, plus an effective Tracker/Watcher and a Watcher… that’s kind of absurd.

Keep in mind that the cop is third party lol

Still gives results that affect POE. I’d pretty much have to believe that your role is flavored to make sense of it.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/21/2026 at 10:54 PM (post #1184)

You are the second person to mention the distancing thing so I will respond to this. If that was distancing it was pretty one sided. Magic was pressuring me over essentially nothing and I was defending myself against baseless bullshit. I didn’t even really suspect him until afterwards when he randomly dropped the allegations when I called him a lil bitch. That was what made me wanna investigate him in the first place.

Youve played scum with me enough to know that I distance better than that, and I would actually dishing some FOS back in return. See my distance with Wylted in the Pitt for an example of how I distance.

Maybe. I’ll admit that was a minor point, it’s not anything solid against you.

Originally Posted by Mikal on 8/21/2026 at 10:53 PM (post #1183)

Wait it has to be luna

Caroler

Watcher

Tracker

All confirmed

And a 1x cop lol

Didn't think about that

Yup. I think you’re right. If the balance somehow includes both a Caroler and a Cop, plus an effective Tracker/Watcher and a Watcher… that’s kind of absurd.

Originally Posted by Mikal on 8/21/2026 at 10:47 PM (post #1180)

Pies role is not tailored de facto.

Either rex messed with his result.

Or he sent a message to david

So pie is actually a tracker

Which to be fair. A watcher tracker and cop. Make even less sense.

We know that the result David received was either tampered with or was not real to begin with, so yes, you're right that Pie couldn't have been Tailored. That is an awful lot of investigatives.

Originally Posted by Mikal on 8/21/2026 at 10:34 PM (post #1170)

In the same boat. The fake claim for tael just makes way more sense. They had a tailor kill and 2 fake claims and they come up with that. Like my head is saying yeet rex cus its retarted but my gut is saying I can't explain that bad result and it would set them up to win confirming magic. The dreamer reslts flipped it but them confirming each other won the game

That result is bothering me, too. I guess it’s not out of the realm of possibility for either Rex or Luna to have sent a manipulated result to Kohai, but Luna was clearly calling out that he’d get a result and used that to support his claim. Is it more likely that he somehow got a fake result to Kohai (which would suggest he didn’t Tailor NP1), or that Rex fucked with his result somehow by targeting Luna despite him not receiving the result?

The early back-and-forth RVS between Mag1c and Luna also bothers me, felt like it could have been effective distancing.

Originally Posted by Mikal on 8/21/2026 at 10:24 PM (post #1154)

Wf where are you at atm

Part of me just thinks Rex is the obvious choice. If the Unjester is real, he missed his window to make full use of it by pushing Banana to shoot him. The role itself is just weird and if it functions like a Jester, it doesn’t make sense that it could win with town or scum.

On the other hand, the fact that it is so baffling is almost a point in his favor. We know scum were given fake claims, but I don’t think the TP was. Tingle makes more sense as a TP than Tael does. And I don’t think Rex as scum tries to get anyone to shoot him.

So… yeah, gut says kill Rex, head says ask again later.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/21/2026 at 10:25 PM (post #1155)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 8/21/2026 at 8:22 PM (post #1149)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/21/2026 at 10:17 PM (post #1143)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 8/21/2026 at 8:13 PM (post #1134)

#441

Hold on, I might actually be confirmable. Was backreading a bit. Are there vigs? If one targets me they should get a message that would confirm me. Don't want to say what the role actually is cause I don't want scum manipulating shit.

Rex did say this after he initially claimed his character. If his goal was just to die, that would make sense, since he’d just invite a kill and his role would trigger if he was telling the truth. They obviously wouldn’t have received a message, but seems strange for scum Rex to invite a Vig to kill him.

Or he was setting this claim up from earlier. If you only have to survive til the end of day phase three and think you can sell that your the TP it’s a great plan. Rex has literally been AFK the whole game, his claim has completely carried him. He’s not even being questioned in LYLO lol

It’s a pretty shitty claim to set up that early. Not saying it’s impossible, but I disagree that it’s carried him at all. Dude got called out for it immediately, there was just a better target for a lynch last DP.

Any time he’s been in the chopping block though he’s magically been active. Which shows a level of lurking and awareness I think is being easily disregarded.

Maybe. Not a strong reason to sus him, but it’s something.

Originally Posted by Mikal on 8/21/2026 at 10:16 PM (post #1141)

Tldr

3P could win and Town could win

3P could win and scum could win

3P could lose and Town could win

3P could lose and scum could win

Any of these options could happen.

Feel like I’m still missing the slip.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 8/21/2026 at 10:17 PM (post #1143)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 8/21/2026 at 8:13 PM (post #1134)

#441

Hold on, I might actually be confirmable. Was backreading a bit. Are there vigs? If one targets me they should get a message that would confirm me. Don't want to say what the role actually is cause I don't want scum manipulating shit.

Rex did say this after he initially claimed his character. If his goal was just to die, that would make sense, since he’d just invite a kill and his role would trigger if he was telling the truth. They obviously wouldn’t have received a message, but seems strange for scum Rex to invite a Vig to kill him.

Or he was setting this claim up from earlier. If you only have to survive til the end of day phase three and think you can sell that your the TP it’s a great plan. Rex has literally been AFK the whole game, his claim has completely carried him. He’s not even being questioned in LYLO lol

It’s a pretty shitty claim to set up that early. Not saying it’s impossible, but I disagree that it’s carried him at all. Dude got called out for it immediately, there was just a better target for a lynch last DP.

Originally Posted by Mikal on 8/21/2026 at 10:12 PM (post #1133)

Wait it just rex.

Rex slipped

and will lose if I'm lynched or if I'm alive at endgame.

This contradicts what thoth told me.

Going to confirm

What did Thoth tell you exactly?

#441

Hold on, I might actually be confirmable. Was backreading a bit. Are there vigs? If one targets me they should get a message that would confirm me. Don't want to say what the role actually is cause I don't want scum manipulating shit.

Rex did say this after he initially claimed his character. If his goal was just to die, that would make sense, since he’d just invite a kill and his role would trigger if he was telling the truth. They obviously wouldn’t have received a message, but seems strange for scum Rex to invite a Vig to kill him.

Hmmm… let me check something.