whiteflame

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 7/9/2026 at 8:26 AM (post #20)

Your argument was that even if the definition of MYLO/LYLO included roles, you had the guaranteed play to win to win the game.

That argument hinges on town being honest about their roles. Town can play mind games. The point of my bluff was to introduce uncertainty.

You see while there was a guaranteed play, mind games from town can mean there’s no guarantee mafia makes said winning play. Considering the fact that you believed me in the last DP, there’s a possibility you would not have even tried to rb or redirect me. Just the possibility is enough.

This means the game still came down to the night phase, if Wryly were quicklynched.

Therefore, *if* the definition of MYLO/LYLO includes roles, then that DP was not MYLO/LYLO.

If it is purely based on numbers, it isn’t relevant. But the bluff was to demonstrate the argument, to prevent you from having a pinch and winning under both definitions.

...except that wouldn't have changed our night actions at all. FYI, I didn't believe you, but even if we did, we still would have at least tried to Redirect you. Even if it would have failed, there was no point in just not using it and there was literally nothing else stopping us from performing a successful NK. Maybe Banana could have tried to claim that she had a hidden protective role that we also had to stop, but neither of us would have bought it and the outcome would have been the same.

I don't think that's your point, though. It's not about this specific game or how it would have played out, it's about the ability to bluff and introduce uncertainty that the mafia team has to juggle during the NP. You create a possibility that something unknown or unmanageable is in play and that could change scum behaviors which could also change the outcome of the game. I don't think that applies here, but fair point that it is something that could apply in future games.

That being said, that's not the focus of the discussion surrounding MYLO and LYLO unless mods are going to start considering bluffed roles in how they process lynches, which would just make things more complicated and require mods to effectively take anything anyone says about their roles as gospel, since they'll never know for sure that the scum team isn't buying it. The focus here is on whether an actual role would change the calculus of whether we've reached MYLO/LYLO, in which case, as Thoth pointed out, it would require the mod to effectively confirm the existence of a protective role left in the game and have that role's mere existence, regardless of other roles present, change the degree to which parity is applied in the DP before it is used. I've already given my position on that.

Anyway, brief thinking about the setup and resolution.

On the setup, just kind of weird to give scum an extra NK and make that role almost identical to a town role. Kohai already mentioned this up top, but that's a lot of killing roles and that's also a trap for scum to potentially fall into. If we hadn't decided to kill Mikal up front, I think we just would have lost by NP2 after Luna's strategy to straight claim his role would have just gotten him CC'd and lynched.

Some interesting other roles, maybe a little too much in the way of role confirmation. Theoretically, Rex, Banana, Wryly, Pie and Mikal could have all confirmed their roles and aside from Banana's which was pretty likely town and Wryly's being a big maybe, the other three would have been close to lock town after they got confirmed (Rex would have to communicate info from a dead player, but he could do it). We only got lucky that POE wasn't a massive issue by the end.

As for the outcome... yeah, it's not the easiest thing to accept. Town left themselves open to that final mislynch and I think it mechanically should go through. It's especially weird given that, yeah, Mharman was lying about the whole "Redirects and RBs don't work on me" thing. He would have been Redirected, a different target would have been NK'd, it would have been game over. It was a guaranteed loss for town.

Even if you disagree with my entire argument above and you believe protective roles should be considered in whether you've reached MYLO, I don't think it should stop at that. If the existence of a protective role during the NP is sufficient to demonstrate that it's not actually MYLO, then all roles should be considered. If there's a route, no matter how small or remote, by which that protective role could plausibly stop the NK, then I can at least see a case for saying it's not MYLO. However, if said protective role is absolutely capped with no room to argue that some other fuckery might occur, then said protective role is effectively a non-issue. I believe this falls into the latter category.

I don't care about the points, I don't care how this is entered, but if we're going to select a means to evaluate whether we've reached MYLO/LYLO, we can't be arbitrary about it. We can't only consider some potential night actions and not others.

As I see it, this is a straightforward question.

MYLO is defined independently of the available night actions that follow it. It's the point where parity is two players off, i.e. there are two more members of town than there are of scum. It theoretically affords town the opportunity to VTNL or NL and still survive to the next DP, independent of whether an NK is successful.

The reason I mention all that is because, technically, that would also make LYLO impossible to reach so long as there's a protective role. Town can always VTNL or NL, so they can always survive to the next DP if a protective role successfully protects the NK target. I recognize that's unlikely to happen (I can't imagine any game where town just decides to VTNL in the hopes that they will be successful preventing the NK), but if the standard is that the loss must be a given post-hammer, then the same issue applies to hammering a VTNL at LYLO. By this logic, as long as there's a protective role in play that can stop the NK completely, MYLO and LYLO functionally don't exist, or they only exist in specific circumstances (e.g. when the NK is unpreventable and/or someone is successfully lynched).

So I don't really care whether we won this game or not, but I am sincerely lost on why this is a debate. MYLO and LYLO should be established by how close to parity town and scum are, period. If there's a role that alters that parity (e.g. a town player counts as two or a Restless Spirit counts towards parity after the player is eliminated), then that can affect when MYLO and LYLO start, but those are very specific circumstances that occur during the DP. If it's something that could happen during the following NP, it doesn't affect the status of the DP itself. It's still MYLO even if Mag1c could Commute all town players in the final NP, it just transitions to LYLO the next DP.

If someone wants to explain how I'm wrong about all this, be my guest.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 7/9/2026 at 12:01 AM (post #147)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 7/8/2026 at 11:56 PM (post #144)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 7/8/2026 at 11:55 PM (post #143)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 7/8/2026 at 11:51 PM (post #140)

Anyway, I'll leave this to play out for now. I'll accept whatever Kohai ends up deciding. I didn't realize there was confusion over when MYLO starts, but it'll be good to have this fully clarified, regardless of the outcome.

I'm working on endgame now. I think this debate is worth having. Having a clear community standard on when MyLo begins will prevent stuff like this from happening in the future.

Alright, makes sense. You should probably clarify the outcome publicly.

I think I'm going to declare this a tie. There's a strong case to be made for both sides. Endgame will be up in a minute.

Going to hold off on giving thoughts on this until I see the endgame since there might be more going on than I'm aware of.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 7/8/2026 at 11:55 PM (post #143)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 7/8/2026 at 11:51 PM (post #140)

Anyway, I'll leave this to play out for now. I'll accept whatever Kohai ends up deciding. I didn't realize there was confusion over when MYLO starts, but it'll be good to have this fully clarified, regardless of the outcome.

I'm working on endgame now. I think this debate is worth having. Having a clear community standard on when MyLo begins will prevent stuff like this from happening in the future.

Alright, makes sense. You should probably clarify the outcome publicly.

Anyway, I'll leave this to play out for now. I'll accept whatever Kohai ends up deciding. I didn't realize there was confusion over when MYLO starts, but it'll be good to have this fully clarified, regardless of the outcome.

Originally Posted by wylted on 7/8/2026 at 11:40 PM (post #130)

I think the neutral arbiters will most likely rule in your favor but that might also depend on if he told wryly she loses the role in mylo or intended for her to without telling her

True, it's possible that her role just persists into MYLO, though that would be unusual.

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/8/2026 at 11:39 PM (post #128)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 7/8/2026 at 11:37 PM (post #124)

Agreed with Luna. Even if you're telling the truth, it's still MYLO and it just becomes a probability game.

I didn't realize it could still be MYLO if there's even a chance town can make it to the next day phase.

MYLO/LYLO is based on the number of town players vs. the number of scum players, not available night actions. So if it's 4-2, then it's 2 off of parity, and it's MYLO. You can go to LYLO if our NK target survives the NP, but that doesn't change the status of the previous DP. The only role that would change that status is one that increases the count of town players by other means (e.g. a Restless Spirit that counts towards parity), though those are pretty rare and I don't think they're in play here.

Originally Posted by Banana on 7/8/2026 at 11:37 PM (post #125)

so did we win

Still not 100% on that, tbh. Seems like Kohai's talking with a couple of neutral arbiters about it.

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/8/2026 at 11:34 PM (post #122)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 7/8/2026 at 11:30 PM (post #115)

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/8/2026 at 9:28 PM (post #114)

So Popular can be better utilized beyond mere role confirmation. Good to know. I considered it a weak role.

I mean this was lylo. lol if kohai wants to say it wasn’t mylo he’s wrong but it’s his game so he can hand town the win if he wants I guess

I just meant that it shows Popular can be used to lure scum to a false wagon in general.

You'd have to bank on the mod not including it turning off at MYLO/LYLO, but yes, it's possible.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 7/8/2026 at 11:34 PM (post #121)

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 7/8/2026 at 9:31 PM (post #118)

If it’s two scum and no TP, then it is MYLO

MislYnch = LOse

I guess on a technicality some roles could make it not MYLO if mafia makes the wrong plays.

That’s why.

My doctor can’t be roleblocked or redirected. I hid that. So mafia does actually have to guess who I protect it. So I can block a kill and therefore its not MYLO.

Yeah even if the doctor can’t be stopped it should be mylo, but I guess there’s a sneaking possible you calculate and guess who we kill tonight. We can always gamble that choice to make an official decision but at that point it’s just a Russian roulette

Agreed with Luna. Even if you're telling the truth, it's still MYLO and it just becomes a probability game.

I'll leave it up to Kohai to post the result, but yes, that's game.

We're discussing it. Hold, please.

Huh. How did that happen?

VTL: Wryly

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/8/2026 at 9:41 PM (post #66)

"You're a favorite in the series." (¬_¬)

Well, I absolutely believe you would have come up with something better if you were making this yourself, so the question is whether this is a real part of your PM written by Kohai or something you designed to look like it.

Either way... yeah, I get the expression.

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/8/2026 at 8:33 PM (post #50)

Well fuck my life. I'm Town Popular. If we're in MYLO, I'm not confirmable and that's gg lol.

That's... a new one. Never had someone who didn't confirm the role before MYLO/LYLO. On that basis, you should at least be able to confirm that it is MYLO, right?

Okay but if I wasn't a vig, and we got a mislynch instead, we would have been in the exact same spot numbers wise, so this is either an oversight, or a lie.

Oh yeah. I should've claimed last DP then. Oh well. I'm not good at keeping track of the numbers. With no confirmable role, I'm sure my head's on the block. I'm not even mad, my fault for trying to be too clever about the Popular thing and losing track of the math.

Yeah, I agree with Luna on this one. I'm tempted to view it as a big oversight on your part because that's what your statement above reads as. It's just a weird position to put yourself in. Even if you are actually Popular, that obviously wouldn't confirm your alignment, but now we're just taking your role claim on faith. Did you give the justification?

Looking at this and your post above it, it's hard to believe there are two NP2+ Vigs in the game, and that's coming from someone who got that exact role on my list of three. If you're a Serial Killer TP or something, now would be a good time to clarify given that we're likely at MYLO.

Do you not believe your own results or something? I don't know what to tell you. Im a NP2 vig. That's what I am.

I trust that my results are accurate, but they don't say anything about alignment. Two town Vigs, even with a delay, aren't believable. Having another killing role in play likely means it's associated with a TP, and while that's still hard to stomach, it can at least make some sense from a balance perspective.

When have you ever seen a mafia or third party titled "Night 2 activated vig"? Regardless of your assumption about my alignment, the existence of a second vig is 100% proof the balance is fucked.

I'll admit I've never seen a role like that outside of town, but I'm balancing how strange that is against town somehow having two of the exact same role that allows those players to shoot multiple times. The balance being off doesn't mean I can completely ignore it as an issue.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 7/8/2026 at 8:04 PM (post #42)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 7/8/2026 at 5:55 PM (post #38)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 7/8/2026 at 7:08 PM (post #27)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 7/8/2026 at 2:04 PM (post #10)

So... there were somehow two NKs?

I don't get the choices, either. Both Pie and Rex were getting sussed to varying degrees last DP, so why kill them? I feel like I'm missing something. Really frustrating as well because both could have role confirmed themselves.

Rex was me, and he was my second top scum read behind banana, which is why I killed him. Sucks he wasn't scum.... I feel slightly less bad about it given we no lynched yesterday but a mis vig is still a mis vig. Now that I have demonstrated my role, I will be much more conservative with it. I didn't even really want to submit a kill honestly. Happy to forfeit this role unless I am pretty damn sure someone is scum. I was going to shoot banana, but switched to rex last second because of niggling doubts.

Looking at this and your post above it, it's hard to believe there are two NP2+ Vigs in the game, and that's coming from someone who got that exact role on my list of three. If you're a Serial Killer TP or something, now would be a good time to clarify given that we're likely at MYLO.

Do you not believe your own results or something? I don't know what to tell you. Im a NP2 vig. That's what I am.

I trust that my results are accurate, but they don't say anything about alignment. Two town Vigs, even with a delay, aren't believable. Having another killing role in play likely means it's associated with a TP, and while that's still hard to stomach, it can at least make some sense from a balance perspective.

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/8/2026 at 7:51 PM (post #36)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 7/8/2026 at 7:47 PM (post #35)

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/8/2026 at 6:37 PM (post #20)

Was your power a 1x? Did you target someone last night?

I won't say how many shots I have, but I tried to target Rex, figuring I could either confirm his claim this DP or have a more solid reason to sus him. I didn't get a result.

What message did you get, exactly?

I was told my target, Rex, was dead.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 7/8/2026 at 7:08 PM (post #27)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 7/8/2026 at 2:04 PM (post #10)

So... there were somehow two NKs?

I don't get the choices, either. Both Pie and Rex were getting sussed to varying degrees last DP, so why kill them? I feel like I'm missing something. Really frustrating as well because both could have role confirmed themselves.

Rex was me, and he was my second top scum read behind banana, which is why I killed him. Sucks he wasn't scum.... I feel slightly less bad about it given we no lynched yesterday but a mis vig is still a mis vig. Now that I have demonstrated my role, I will be much more conservative with it. I didn't even really want to submit a kill honestly. Happy to forfeit this role unless I am pretty damn sure someone is scum. I was going to shoot banana, but switched to rex last second because of niggling doubts.

Looking at this and your post above it, it's hard to believe there are two NP2+ Vigs in the game, and that's coming from someone who got that exact role on my list of three. If you're a Serial Killer TP or something, now would be a good time to clarify given that we're likely at MYLO.

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/8/2026 at 6:44 PM (post #24)

Just can't understand not NKing the Doc. Would understand it if Mag1c was scum, but no one fake claims Doc, and there's no other claimed protective role on the board -- plus Mag1c is the one who suggested the VTNL last DP, and if he hadn't we could be at MYLO right now.

Can't say I get it, either. With his claim, he's one of the more townread players remaining. With that and the capacity to stop the NK, you'd think he would be the primary choice. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen a game that lacked protectives, but it would be pretty hard to believe there's no Doc.

Hold yer horses I'll get to it. My role is confirmable.

Alright, not sure if you've claimed by now, but I'm still working my way through the DP.

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/8/2026 at 6:37 PM (post #20)

Was your power a 1x? Did you target someone last night?

I won't say how many shots I have, but I tried to target Rex, figuring I could either confirm his claim this DP or have a more solid reason to sus him. I didn't get a result.

Originally Posted by wylted on 7/8/2026 at 4:54 PM (post #15)

I ain't got no patience.

I am a cop.

The justification is that BBQ Becky is always up in people's business, although I am only aware of one instance.

NP 1 investigated Mikal. I didn't get a result instead I got a message that my target died. NP2 I targeted whiteflame and got an innocent.

It's one of the reasons my vote was on him last DP after claiming an investigative role. Part of me felt like Pie was on a team with him as he kept saying "only claimed investigative role" I felt like he was trying to incite me to claim which seemed scum motivated.

I investigated Mikal because Vigilante is often cover for serial killer so I wanted to make sure he wasn't getting a pass and I targeted whiteflame due to claiming a role I somewhat CC.

Alright, that makes more sense. I would be more surprised if there wasn’t an alignment-investigative role in the game, and the fact that you say you copped me innocent when several living players had me in POE makes it even more likely you’re telling the truth, since I’d be an easy mislynch at this point with us already at a presumed MYLO.

I'm lost this game though. My scum reads keep getting NKed for I guess being too towny

You're not alone. Apart from getting claims, I’ll be digging back through the previous DPs and rebuilding my reads from scratch to see what I’ve been missing.

After rereading all of whiteflames posts during the downtime. I am fairly confident he is town .

I'd like to understand this better because you were hard sussing me last DP to the point that I was your preferred lynch before the VTNL was suggested.

We may be at mylo or lylo so I would support a mass claim here.

I can see the logic behind it (I think we're either at 4-2 or 3-2-1), though I'd still prefer that we have an order to it. Between you, Luna and Wryly, I'd most like to get Luna's claim first, so we can start there.

So... there were somehow two NKs?

I don't get the choices, either. Both Pie and Rex were getting sussed to varying degrees last DP, so why kill them? I feel like I'm missing something. Really frustrating as well because both could have role confirmed themselves.

Originally Posted by RexFavilla on 7/6/2026 at 5:07 PM (post #181)

Ugh I'm done phoneposting just lost my giant wall post. Long story short I think WF and Luna are in a semi1:1. If Luna is the town BG I dont see scum WF pulling this, hed just keep that info to himself. Luna, if you ARE town redirector I think WF is scum pulling the rolecop gambit. If Luna is scum roleblocker well then WF is town and Luna is scum. Will elaborate further later.

Are you going to elaborate on this point at any time, or are you just going to keep pretending you did and that I've refused to address it?

Everything WF has said has kind of not helped my impression of him. I also think his flip will be more revealing. I also feel like WF's analysis of me particularly has just felt off. Like he's not trying to really figure out if I'm town or scum but is rather trying to cut the legs out from any argument that could frame me as town. It really reminds me of his play last game where he was TP.

In my last response to you, I asked you to expand on the argument you made so that we can actually discuss your read of me. Your response since then has been to claim that my lack of response to your conclusion somehow implicates me. I've been waiting, even said I'd respond first thing this morning if you posted it, and you've continued to provide nothing. I don't know what you want me to analyze, but I've been asking for more and it doesn't feel like I'm getting anywhere.

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/7/2026 at 12:22 PM (post #256)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 7/7/2026 at 12:08 PM (post #252)

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/7/2026 at 12:01 PM (post #250)

I also don't see Rex gunning for whiteflame like this as scum. This reminds me of when he was going against the tide to sus whiteflame last game.

Rex is prone to pushing targets like this as either town or scum, so I see that as NAI. The main thing that seems odd to me is how he's doing it, basically calling me out for not responding directly to a point he said he'd elaborate on and never did. At the very least, it's a pretty weak argument.

I agree it wasn't terribly persuasive. You're "lawyery" (I prefer "Tuvok-ish") as either alignment.

It just seems like you're a hard target to get lynched and it would be smarter for scum!Rex to go for lower-hanging fruit.

I'll take "Tuvok-ish," love his character and watched a lot of Deep Space Nine.

As for me being difficult to lynch, I guess that depends on how you see the DP. Given the way he's framing Luna and me as a 1v1, either of our lynches can be framed as a coin flip, allowing some side-stepping of usual behavioral tells.

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/7/2026 at 12:01 PM (post #250)

I also don't see Rex gunning for whiteflame like this as scum. This reminds me of when he was going against the tide to sus whiteflame last game.

Rex is prone to pushing targets like this as either town or scum, so I see that as NAI. The main thing that seems odd to me is how he's doing it, basically calling me out for not responding directly to a point he said he'd elaborate on and never did. At the very least, it's a pretty weak argument.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 7/7/2026 at 11:38 AM (post #247)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 7/7/2026 at 9:16 AM (post #246)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 7/7/2026 at 10:35 AM (post #243)

We have 7 hours left. If no one is feeling banana, I will switch to Rex since he's my second top scum read. But id like people to at least consider Banana.

So I'd like to understand this read more:

Banana- Lean Scum- She has some role confirmation going for her, that's about it. Mods frequently give scum "confirmable" type roles though for balance, to prove the point that players being role confirmed should not eliminate need for lynching based on behavior. Banana behaviorally just feels different. She was a hypocrite in wanting to pressure people on the shining/thoth wagon despite the fact she herself was on the thoth wagon. But she didn't even follow through with that despite dedicating her entire np1 ability to basically posting she thinks we should be targetting those on that wagon. She voted me instead, and then just dis-appeared. Her aggressive stances early don't seem like her at all, and she seems to be trying to take advantage of a mislynch opportunity with whiteflames results rather than even attempt to consider a world where I would be town. Her behavior has been very unusual to her normal playstyle this game, and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise for me. Normally I feel like she screams town when town, and I am not getting that vibe at all now.

I think you're glossing over the role confirmation. The OP specifically says that "A message of hope appears," and while I can buy that Kohai might give scum a seemingly town-confirmed role, that seems like him putting his finger on the scale. Apart from that, I can't say I see a lot of difference in Banana's behavior. The push on you seems a little sudden, but I at least get where this is coming from, especially given the possibility of your being a Redirector. The main thing that's bothering me from her is a lack of reads. Usually by now, she's at least given some indication of how she sees everyone, but I haven't gotten any clarity on how she sees most of us.

How many times do we need to be burned by role confirmation before we start to take behavior more seriously? And do you honestly not see banana as being way more aggressive than normal? Not just with me but with her thotg read. Which was hypocritical btw since she wanted to focus the Thoth and shining wagon. I’m not seeing consistency to her normal play personally.

I can't just dismiss role confirmation entirely simply because we've been burned by it before. I can see the validity of keeping her in POE, but not scumreading her. As for the aggression, I'd like to get more insight into her thinking on you, but as I said, I get where she's coming from. I'm more focused on that than on her presence on and sussing of the Thoth/Shining wagons, mainly because that focus doesn't do much to narrow the pool of suspects. If scum Banana was using this to put attention on anyone, her better bet would be to focus on those who stayed off the wagons, not those where on it.