whiteflame

RexFavilla wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

The post above is a great example. I think the reasoning is shockingly weak for you. Banana took the risk of exposing herself to extract those clear, LD-able statements. The idea that she would then forego those affiliation-testing statement for some other random one is bonkers. Especially considering she was deeply suspicious of Mikal because he also claimed his character was described as smelly. He was absolutely the prime target, yet you are looking for reasons to handwave this away.

There is a difference between being uncertain of someone because of a piece of information and outright sussing them as a result. I am uncertain of Mikal. You are outright sussing him.

You look at this evidence, ignore that other people also gave affiliation confirmable statements in the same DP that didn’t follow that exact format, and then just assume that Mikal is most likely scum because..: his statement is more direct? Am I reading this right?

I really don’t love how your argument is basically just straw-manning my point: that your means of POE here doesn’t make sense (as though the only two people Banana would have plausibly used her role on are either dead or Mikal), and bringing the entirety of Banana’s reads down to calling out Mikal’s claim of being smelly. Yes, that was one thing she mentioned. She also talked about Ultra and his intransigence DP1. She pushed on MeowMix to tell her his wincon and, because Wylted hammered Kohai, only got pushback. You’re telling me that she wouldn’t search for anything indicating alignment in their statements just because it wasn’t exactly what she was asking for?

None of this is a solid indicator to me, it’s just suggestive at best, and it should place a lot more people into POE for you. I don’t get how you’re so certain at all.

Do you have an example of either of those players making a clear LD-able statement? I know Meow didnt, he sarcastically replied with 'I win with fruit'. I dont recall seeing anything from Ultra. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Instead of being curious about this, investigating, and finding these hypothetical posts that could broaden the poe you are approaching the argument like a debater on the other side of the issue, looking for any chink in the armor for the sole purpose of debunking. It reads either like tmi or carrying water for a scummate, and it absolutely pervades your posts this game.

I’m currently not at my computer so I can’t go through everyone’s statements to this effect. I’ll be happy to dig into it when I get home this afternoon.

And I’d love to see some examples of this behavior you’re talking about from previous games where I’ve displayed TMI (for that matter, I’m unclear what I’ve said here reads like TMI) or carrying water for a scum partner. I’m not even arguing against Mikal as a future lynch, just not the lynch this DP. But thank you for noting that my style is “debater,” that’s literally every game I play. Yes, I’m feeling particularly antagonistic on this one. Shocking, I know.

It also makes your trepidation about Mikals affiliation seem fake, given that you were bamboozled by him in a PM just last game as town. It would be natural for you to be more suspicious of him, and warily looking for any slip ups. Instead, you seem to be looking for any excuse to townwave him while also performatively expressing doubts that never materialize into a push.

Yeah, I now have a better idea of what to look for. I’m also not the only one in that PM and not the only one with a townread on him after a good deal of conversation. That doesn’t mean I’m “townwaving” him, but no, I’m not going to sit here and pretend I see something I don’t see.

Wylted is null to me, and if anything he is sheeping me. I've been banging the Mikal/Ultra drum since yesterday.

Why? What makes you so willing to just null read him after everything that he’s said this DP, including claiming he’s the TP and backtracking? Are you just planning to ignore the fact that he was clearly trying to draw Helz into claiming his character last DP? Coming into this DP, saying that his exact set of 3 players is correct, and then immediately voting seems like sheeping to me, but hey, you’re the one following the lead of a… null read.

This also reads like an attempted smear of an opponent rather than a good-faith attempt to scumhunt. It doesn't address the fact that I was gunning for Mikal and Ultra, trying to pressure the former and lynch the latter, for most of last DP. I voted Mikal this DP and used Wylted to build a wagon. Its just dishonest framing to paint Wylted as the one driving the wagon and me following along because I townread him. If Wylted is TP he can still be used to scumhunt.

You keep trying to frame what I’m saying in vague terms. You dropped into the DP, pointed to Wylted’s view on likely scum, agreed, and quickly voted. You didn’t give any reason why you agree with Wylted specifically apart from just arguing that you already sussed two out of the three players on his list. I had to drag any kind of read on Wylted out of you, and I’m still baffled. You said he was null, but now you buy that he’s TP? Why? And why do you trust that he has any reason to work with town if he is the TP? Are you not the slightest bit curious why a claimed TP would have the same exact POE that you do?

Seriously, putting this out to everyone who isn’t Wylted: explain your read on him. Set aside your other reads and just clarify your stance on him. Does anyone have any reason to townread Wylted beyond him being absurdly blatant in just about everything he’s leaning into this DP? Did I miss something in my ISO last DP that should make me townread him now?

The post above is a great example. I think the reasoning is shockingly weak for you. Banana took the risk of exposing herself to extract those clear, LD-able statements. The idea that she would then forego those affiliation-testing statement for some other random one is bonkers. Especially considering she was deeply suspicious of Mikal because he also claimed his character was described as smelly. He was absolutely the prime target, yet you are looking for reasons to handwave this away.

There is a difference between being uncertain of someone because of a piece of information and outright sussing them as a result. I am uncertain of Mikal. You are outright sussing him.

You look at this evidence, ignore that other people also gave affiliation confirmable statements in the same DP that didn’t follow that exact format, and then just assume that Mikal is most likely scum because..: his statement is more direct? Am I reading this right?

I really don’t love how your argument is basically just straw-manning my point: that your means of POE here doesn’t make sense (as though the only two people Banana would have plausibly used her role on are either dead or Mikal), and bringing the entirety of Banana’s reads down to calling out Mikal’s claim of being smelly. Yes, that was one thing she mentioned. She also talked about Ultra and his intransigence DP1. She pushed on MeowMix to tell her his wincon and, because Wylted hammered Kohai, only got pushback. You’re telling me that she wouldn’t search for anything indicating alignment in their statements just because it wasn’t exactly what she was asking for?

None of this is a solid indicator to me, it’s just suggestive at best, and it should place a lot more people into POE for you. I don’t get how you’re so certain at all.

It also makes your trepidation about Mikals affiliation seem fake, given that you were bamboozled by him in a PM just last game as town. It would be natural for you to be more suspicious of him, and warily looking for any slip ups. Instead, you seem to be looking for any excuse to townwave him while also performatively expressing doubts that never materialize into a push.

Yeah, I now have a better idea of what to look for. I’m also not the only one in that PM and not the only one with a townread on him after a good deal of conversation. That doesn’t mean I’m “townwaving” him, but no, I’m not going to sit here and pretend I see something I don’t see.

Wylted is null to me, and if anything he is sheeping me. I've been banging the Mikal/Ultra drum since yesterday.

Why? What makes you so willing to just null read him after everything that he’s said this DP, including claiming he’s the TP and backtracking? Are you just planning to ignore the fact that he was clearly trying to draw Helz into claiming his character last DP? Coming into this DP, saying that his exact set of 3 players is correct, and then immediately voting seems like sheeping to me, but hey, you’re the one following the lead of a… null read.

RexFavilla wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

RexFavilla wrote:

wylted wrote:

Decent chance end game is posted but if not remember we actually do have confirmed scum team of

Whiteflame, Mikal and ultra

Really starting to agree with you on this scum team at this point. I almost don't want to lynch you and go for Mikal or Ultra instead.

Can you explain this read… at all?

Mikal was one of the two players to write 'I win with the town' DP1 and banana ends up dead. I dont see scum killing her unless they realized she was LD after posting something she was likely to check given her status as a ripe moslynch target. The other person who did this is now town confirmed is now town confirmed.

As several people have already pointed out, those two weren't the only ones to post some variation of a wincon, though setting that aside, I don't think this is a very strong read. Banana could have used her LD to read any post someone made, so the idea that she would only consider those with stated wincons doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

His play feels limp and soggy, like he's flopping from one target to another with bad reasoning and then playing dumb. Like the vanilla poe from last DP.

You've seen he's been on Wylted all DP long, right? I get that he jumped around a bit last DP, but he's been clear and discussing his reads on every one of you who have claimed Vanilla in the Mason chat. It was pretty clear why he was sussing Vanillas as well. Hell, I was doing it and still am in this case. I wouldn't call it "bad reasoning" or say that he's playing dumb. This is so vague, man.

He also pushed a mass claim which lines up with scum that are sniffing around for Jews.

I didn't like the push for the massclaim either, but Wylted was practically shouting as often as he could about the existence of a Jew in the game. Mikal's general push stands out, but not Wylted's specific push? What is that?

For you its the fact that you are making arguments that feel forced to a certain conclusion and those conclusions are leaning consistently in one direction - supporting Mikal. But you are my weakest scum read out of the three.

It'd be really nice if you could actually point to posts where you think I'm doing this because I don't get it, man. I support Mikal in his conclusion in this case because this seems absurdly obvious.

Ultra is just such a nonentity this game that I think he's scum coasting like Shining in the last game.

Fine, I have my reasons for sussing Ultra as well.

So... where's your townread on Wylted coming through in all this? *gestures at the rampant flailing Wylted's been doing all DP long* Any thoughts on this at all? I just don't feel like I'm getting your reads at all. Why are you suddenly sheeping Wylted of all people?

RexFavilla wrote:

wylted wrote:

Decent chance end game is posted but if not remember we actually do have confirmed scum team of

Whiteflame, Mikal and ultra

Really starting to agree with you on this scum team at this point. I almost don't want to lynch you and go for Mikal or Ultra instead.

Can you explain this read… at all?

MeowMix wrote:

ILikePie5 wrote:

Who is scum and why

Wylted, Rex, Mikal, Wryly is what I have in my poe rn. I'm extremely doubtful you and Mikal are a scumteam but both of you have pinged me. He just pings me more.

Rex actually improved yesterday at EOD out of all people and I didn't expect that but eh. It's a drop in the bucket.

I am still reading/skimming. What's your PoE? Also no lunch?

Could you explain why Ultra's not in your POE?

wylted wrote:

So at this point, it's clear that you were trying to bait someone into outing that they were the Jew.

Is this the post?

Do you think it's more effective for scum to be that direct than do what Mikal did and ask for a mass claim.

In this case, given what we are aware scum knew about Helz's character and how well you could pass off acting like the Jew hunter Hanz Landa this DP, yeah, I'd say it's "more effective for scum to be that direct" when that scum is you.

wylted wrote:

Prior to your vote how did my behavior change to make me randomly scum from your prior days scum read just a few hours before?

..."randomly"?

Dude, I spent a large amount of time digging into you behaviorally last DP and explaining why I found you scummy, just slightly less scummy than Ultra. If you want to pretend I didn't ISO you and dig through just about every post and determine that you were not just a viable lynch target, but a very close second to the most viable lynch target, then that's on you, not me. I fully explained my read of you last DP. Read it.

If you want the explanation for why I'm scumreading you more than Ultra now, look back at the beginning of the DP. I'll wait.

Wryly wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Wryly wrote:

Does anyone here really buy Pie just handing scum an early-game freebie on who his character is. Especially with them not being given fake claims. Like I'm really supposed to believe this is the first time in history that whimsy overpowered his practicality.

I'd just like to understand your thinking here. Do you believe he's more likely to do this as scum or as town? Because yeah, it's a step outside of his norm, but if there's a reason to view it as scummy, I'd like to hear it.

It's just a complete 180 from us having to put him at L-1 in Chicago Bears mafia just to get him to go from "I am one of these three" to "I am an event". I'm poking at a behavioral inconsistency.

It's a fair question, I just can't say it really does anything to how I'm personally reading him.

wylted wrote:

Before me claiming TP you did a random 180 on me and considered me a better lynch target than ultra at random deviating from the night before. Would you like to explain your mysterious change of heart

There's nothing mysterious about it and you know it. If you're ready and willing to ignore most of my posts from the early DP, I don't see much reason to revisit them.

Wryly wrote:

Does anyone here really buy Pie just handing scum an early-game freebie on who his character is. Especially with them not being given fake claims. Like I'm really supposed to believe this is the first time in history that whimsy overpowered his practicality.

I'd just like to understand your thinking here. Do you believe he's more likely to do this as scum or as town? Because yeah, it's a step outside of his norm, but if there's a reason to view it as scummy, I'd like to hear it.

Wryly wrote:

What's your read of Pie and Mikal from mason chat

I wouldn't say it's solid town on either front, but I'm townreading both of them.

Wryly wrote:

I would like you to tell me why you softed early. Pie, you too.

It’s related to my role and how it works. I also just really wanted to have some fun with this game.

RexFavilla wrote:

ILikePie5 wrote:

Also, the fact that they NKed Thoth instead of someone who hadn’t full claimed is noteworthy. It makes it more likely that having a Tailor is the lie. And if that’s the lie, there are at least 2 Vanillas. Something to consider for the future

Could be saving it for MYLO. Or it could be the version of tailor where you target someone during the night and then you need to target them at night or lynch them to have them flip over the following DP and NP. Actually, that makes the obstinate Wylted wagon from yesterday make a lot more sense if he was tailored to flip as scum. And they wouldn't NK him then because one scum flip would look like a tailor and waste it. It's possible they tailored him again and want to kill him today to get that misleading scum flip.

I'm unclear on this. Do you believe Wylted's the TP and scum had some incentive to make him look like he flipped scum? Also, that's not how I've ever seen Luna use a Tailor before. He let us Tailor flips of players that were either lynched that DP or NK'd, we didn't have to select them in advance of their being killed. If how he's used the role before is consistent with what he's doing now, then they wouldn't have had to get ahead of it at all.

wylted wrote:

Fair point. I just thought maybe do it out of respect for the game.

Dude, you were outright calling for Kohai to get himself modkilled DP1, but now that it’s you, you suddenly care about “respect for the game” to avoid getting yourself modkilled? Does anyone buy this?

wylted wrote:

So now you’re the Cult Leader? Man, how many roles do you have?

Are you drunk I put Mikals name in that.

However it can't be true if we believe statement one to be true which is that only a single third party exists

Yes, you’re the TP Lyncher who also surmised the existence of yet another TP who is the Cult Leader. Sure.

wylted wrote:

I'm gonna be honest here scum team. If Mikal is not scum you may want to kill him. He could be a cult leader

And now you have a game that is gonna have 3 cult, 3 scum and 3 town

So now you’re the Cult Leader? Man, how many roles do you have?

wylted wrote:

Fuck it I will confess. Because whatever the fuck whatever. I was given white male as a fake claim by lunatic, but I am literally a German and my wincon is to kill the Jew . I get one bullet to attempt it at night but apparently the Jew is bullet proof and the other way I win is by getting them lynched but they get town confirmed today so that's literally impossible. So i don't know why lunatic literally made my wincon impossible but there it is. Go ahead and lynch me or whatever, I can't win anyway. I tried even my attempt to call the Jew a scribe failed because lunatic felt the need to interject like a dick head. I will never play a game he hosts again. This role is complete bullshit. Also my read on ultra is legitimate I think he is genuinely scum.

This shit is just getting ridiculous.

RexFavilla wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

RexFavilla wrote:

Mikal's role sounds like the Germans. He's like Hans Landa from Inglorious Bastards - opening PMs and interrogating people, trying to sniff out (and snuff out) the Jews. It makes perfect sense for a lyncher to also be a neighborizer.

I can’t say I agree with this one. Don’t have a strong townread on Mikal, but him being a Neighborizer and a Lyncher seems like a lot.

Why? Neighborizer makes a lyncher's job easier. And he targeted you, who claimed softed a religion very early. It makes sense that he suspected that if someone is lying about being the jews it was you because if you are you came up with a religious 'fake claim' very early. That's more likely to come with someone with a religious 'real' claim.

I have some reason to doubt that that would require me getting into what information I think Mikal had about my role and why that matters, so I’ll abstain from specifics, but I don’t think this narrative holds up.

wylted wrote:

I don’t get your point, but I think you’re scum, so…

So the theory is I am a TP scum whose wincon is to lynch the Jew who has been both town confirmed and confirmed death proof, but that I am also on the scum team?

The theory is that you are on the scum team, that there is also a “Germans” on the scum team or you are the Germans yourself, and that you could have killed him during the DP or executed an extra NK if you discovered them.

wylted wrote:

I just realized this and at least one of you on my wagon is sincere but how the fuck would a "lyncher"

Make sense with a role that gets town confirmed by the mod on DP3?

Your theory rests on lunatic giving the TP an impossible task and why are you tp hunting instead of scum hunting?

I don’t get your point, but I think you’re scum, so…

Wryly wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

There's a more than decent chance that there are no Vanillas in the game at all and that was the fake mechanic. I get that that was part of the argument we had about that mechanic last DP and everyone just sort of accepted that it had to be true, but it's the difference between having at least 2 Vanillas and having 0 or 1.

If 5 is the fake mechanic, why are people fake claiming? Just to avoid outing themselves as the Germans? So only one scum is fake claiming?

Avoiding claiming Germans specifically would make sense given the tie to Jews. That might tie more into the lack of a theme split being wrong, so I take your point, though whether there’s an active theme split or just an anti-claim mechanic between these two characters is unclear.

RexFavilla wrote:

Mikal's role sounds like the Germans. He's like Hans Landa from Inglorious Bastards - opening PMs and interrogating people, trying to sniff out (and snuff out) the Jews. It makes perfect sense for a lyncher to also be a neighborizer.

I can’t say I agree with this one. Don’t have a strong townread on Mikal, but him being a Neighborizer and a Lyncher seems like a lot.

wylted wrote:

WTF are you talking about with flavor. He said he was vanilla. At least two town between me helz and rex.

Do you mean character?

Why are you so adamant about this? There's a more than decent chance that there are no Vanillas in the game at all and that was the fake mechanic. I get that that was part of the argument we had about that mechanic last DP and everyone just sort of accepted that it had to be true, but it's the difference between having at least 2 Vanillas and having 0 or 1.

Helz wrote:

ILikePie5 wrote:

So I can confirm that WF is now in our Mason PM

Does your mason chat have a function that confirms you as town to etch other or is it more of a neighborhood?

As far as we can tell so far, it does not confirm anyone.

So, during the night, Pie and I were both RB'd. I can't tell whether that's the result of a multi-RB scum role, or a Motivator being in play.

Wylted is the obvious lynch this DP, it's just a question of what other info we want to get out of it. I'll follow Helz's lead here, use the DP as you see fit.

VTL: wylted

So at this point, it's clear that you were trying to bait someone into outing that they were the Jew.

wylted wrote:

There is zero reason not to test what was written in op considering that the Jew could have some sort of scribe role. Plus didn't he claim Muslim?

Bulletproof, not lynchproof. Also, confirmed Jew. What are you even trying to do here?

Ultimate Jew power!?