whiteflame

Mikal wrote:

This is a good catch.

VTL: Helz

Putting pressure here off the above.

I get Pie's reasons for sussing Helz, but I'm not understanding if you're just rubber stamping them here and why. What was the aim of this additional pressure?

MeowMix wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

MeowMix wrote:

Here's my completely unserious rendition of it because I'm bored.

Just saying folks it's gonna be a wild ride. Mafia can just slip in the shadows and hunt down the third party this game - which could be an arsonist. Man that'd be crazy. But since the Mafia can help us find them, maybe we don't kill slots that actually scumhunt. So the arsonist doesn't kill us.

Any particular reason you're jumping to the possibility of an Arsonist?

You were skimming weren't you?

( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)

Working on catching up, yeah, and my dumbass missed the "unserious" part. My bad.

Regarding why Helz seems so confident in the existence of a third party generally, I'm just not seeing it as a serious concern. A lot of us agreed that #1 is one of the few on that list that scum would have been unlikely to fake and I think Helz is just pretty confident in it being true. It's possible he's just the TP and knew there was one, I just don't think this is a slip.

MeowMix wrote:

Here's my completely unserious rendition of it because I'm bored.

Just saying folks it's gonna be a wild ride. Mafia can just slip in the shadows and hunt down the third party this game - which could be an arsonist. Man that'd be crazy. But since the Mafia can help us find them, maybe we don't kill slots that actually scumhunt. So the arsonist doesn't kill us.

Any particular reason you're jumping to the possibility of an Arsonist?

Wryly wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Helz wrote:

Im really against us just claiming for no reason right now. Could we just not? Its D2 and yet again a huge portion of players have claimed all over the place.

If I didn’t feel like mine was already very obvious, I wouldn’t have done it. I agree we should keep claims to a minimum, it’s the reason I didn’t even want Ultra to claim.

You said last DP that there was a "reason you softed." Can you elaborate?

I’d prefer not to. This would require at least strongly hinting at my role.

I'll revisit my reads from DP1 tomorrow, just got done posting the final round for a debate and I don't have the bandwidth to plunge into this as deeply as I'd like tonight.

I agree that we should be considering everyone on that lynch, particularly those who joined it with limited explanation. That's why Thoth and Wylted are chief among those I plan to look through tomorrow.

Helz wrote:

Im really against us just claiming for no reason right now. Could we just not? Its D2 and yet again a huge portion of players have claimed all over the place.

If I didn’t feel like mine was already very obvious, I wouldn’t have done it. I agree we should keep claims to a minimum, it’s the reason I didn’t even want Ultra to claim.

Mikal wrote:

I dislike softs. I have ideas of what you could be but would rather tie you to it so you dont back pedal. Ultra also seems an easy pick.

I would rather move pass you in my head but you are doing this thing where you are very non committal and hedging a lot of what you say.

Yeah, I’m not going to give you solid reads I don’t have. Being non-committal and hedging is my MO in any game this early, so whether you like it or not, it’s my meta.

As for what I am, again, I think it’s obvious so I’ll just say it: I’m the Christians.

Mikal wrote:

Who's your target today. I feel like you are going this shit you do when you are scum and fluff post, defend things and dont take hard stances.

Tbh I would not mind a claim from you if you are willing. Just character.

Figure my character is obvious, but I’ll give a character claim if enough people want it clarified.

As for who my target is, I’ll confess I don’t have one. I’ve got a light sus on Ultra for reasons I’ve already covered. He’ll be my target if I don’t get more insight into his thinking, but he’s full claimed so I’m setting him aside for now. Apart from him, I’m mainly trying to get a bead on MeowMix, you, Wylted and Thoth. I gave extensive reads last DP, but I’ll need to reconsider them.

I’ve said my piece about the probability that Luna included this in his game and I still believe it’s close to touching 0%. Taking a mechanic that is already controversial, adding a day use, and affecting the mod-confirmed flip are just too much for me to buy. I can’t see a world where Luna does this and then just covers his ass with a “I told you I included a Tailor in the game mechanics list.” Even if we knew for certain there was a Tailor in the mix, I think this would be a bridge too far.

Couple that with my already established reasons for buying that Luna would include a Town Drunk from last DP and the scum elimination of Banana (who was the main voice against this lynch), and I just can’t see it. Is this mostly modpsych? Yes, but I feel I know Luna well enough to know if he’d take this big a swing and I can’t see it.

As for Helz pushing this narrative, at minimum, he has explained it extensively. Not sure if I buy him as scum over it, mainly because I can see his whole thought process and it doesn’t swing towards scummy.

Ultracrepidarian wrote:

Because I don't want wylted to claim and I seem to be the other option, I'll go. I'm vanilla.

We didn't need all of these fancy abilities to catch the mafia back in my day, we just pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps and applied a little elbow grease

Doesn't really address the problem with a lack of informing reads. You saying you're "wildly indecisive" as you said earlier isn't good enough for me, either. I get that that leads to more uncertainty with saying who is town and who is scum, but that doesn't mean you get to sit back and not give reads. You've been here since the start of the game and you have a DPs worth of material to comb through. Those should at least inform something beyond what you've given us so far.

That being said, you did claim, even if I'm hesitant to give you towncred for a Vanilla claim.

If I had to guess I would say the lie is five, purely because that's what I would choose as mafia for fake claiming.

Would you like to explain why you would say this if you know 5 is likely to be true considering you’re claiming Vanilla?

And yeah, the decision to specifically call out #5 on the list as a lie when you knew you were Vanilla strikes me as odd. I get if you have just never seen multiple people with the same role in a game, but there was widespread agreement that multiple Vanillas was a real possibility and people even pointed to previous games of Luna's where it was as well.

Regardless, for the time being:

UNVOTE

wylted wrote:

Also... "Jew like behavior"?

Indians like to haggle, pay the lowest price for help possible and in general are very scammy.

They are essentially a low IQ jew. Imagine Jew traits now remove 30 IQ points

I haven't mentioned it yet, but I'm legitimately thrilled you're here. Points like these are just *chef's kiss*.

Ultracrepidarian wrote:

Someone explain to me why were making Wylted full claim

A combination of behavioral uncertainty and paranoia following Kohai's flip, I think. I'd like to see more thoughts from him, but I'm not pursuing a claim right now. Would like more from you, too, and you have fewer excuses for not giving more insight at this point.

Wryly wrote:

I asked Luna last night if he would ever implement a Tailor whose power could influence the EOD alignment flip, but naturally he would not answer.

Yeah, I can't imagine he'd answer that. The most I can say in support of the possibility is that Luna has also never given away the existence of a Tailor in the OP. If he had included a Tailor that could do this, the least he could do is reveal that a Tailor exists in game, though there's obviously some uncertainty there.

I can't believe Kohai was innocent. Where did the number three pop into his head from? Why tf did he change his story? It's like he was trying to get lynched.

I won't pretend to know. Like I said, I don't blame anyone for pursuing his lynch, I basically acceded to it myself. Too many red flags.

Well, I've got a bunch of reasons I disagree.

To start, that's not how Luna has ever employed the Tailor role before. Every time he has used it in the past, it's been a night phase only role and, effectively, just changes the resulting flip for either the lynch or the NK target. And he's gotten a lot of crap for even that, since a number of people have seen the role as bastard and it's been used almost by itself to win games. I can't see him further empowering it.

I also think it's extremely unlikely that the role would come with any kind of mod confirmation. Having the mod straight up say "He was innocent!" is another step into bastard territory and one further than I've ever seen anyone take on this site or DART. It's one thing to allow changes to the flip, it's another to outright confirm that alignment is accurate as a mod.

To a lesser degree, I also think the choice of Banana as the NK also pushes back against this. I wouldn't be surprised if scum surmised that she was the Lie Detector, but she was also clearly arguing that this would be the result: an innocent Kohai flip. I can't see scum killing her when she'd obviously be entering this DP supporting the Tailored flip.

Helz wrote:

On that subject I call absolute bullshit to that role card and Kohai flipping innocent. I feel that is pretty obvious but would like to hear others thoughts before I unpack why.

That means to me that there is a split in flavor as the mechanic thats a lie.

So... explain this to me. Are you saying that the Tailor was used during DP1? Because he flipped innocent during the DP. Yeah, we got his flip today, but Luna straight up said he was innocent last DP. I've played in games where Luna has used a Tailor before - hell, I've been that Tailor - and having one where the Tailor is used during the DP, the mod outright confirms he was innocent, and flip also confirms it is hard to believe.

I didn't get to give any thoughts on the Kohai lynch at the end of the last DP, so I'll give them here.

Much as I had my misgivings with the lynch, I was positioned better than anyone to see how likely a Town Drunk was to be in this game, given my conversations with Luna for the Frieren game. With the inconsistencies in what he said and the case against his role being in the game (Helz in particular made some good points about that), he was a relatively obvious lynch, which is why I was pressing on Ultra to get some indication of his thinking beyond Kohai. Doesn't seem like we got that and it's going to be difficult to get any kind of read based on who was on Kohai's wagon. Couple that with the loss of our Lie Detector and, yeah, not the greatest position to be in to start off DP2. We did at least get some readlists from Kohai, which I largely agreed with coming into the NP.

So I'm looking for more from Ultra in particular to start off the DP. I agreed with Helz's point last DP that your posts were low on content and gave little insight into how you were thinking. We've got plenty of time to fix that this DP.

VTL: Ultracrepidarian

wylted wrote:

Pretty obvious she was lie detector given asking people to say their win con. Just keep an eye open for statements that can be lie detected without signalling that next time. Also I don't think Asians being smelly is a real stereotype. And no Indians don't get to claim asian so they can try to trick us into thinking they are slant eyes when news reports come out about their rapey and also their Jew like behavior

Alright, setting theater aside, I can't say I saw this but that makes a good deal of sense. And yeah, surprised by the "Asians are smelly" stereotype showing up here. Can't say I would have pegged that one.

Also... "Jew like behavior"?

Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today to mourn the loss of, and celebrate the beautiful life of, Banana. She was taken from us too soon, lost to time and poor driving habits. You had an eye for lies, but not for posted road signs or basic road etiquette I'm afraid. I mean, we know you were murdered, but I'm just saying you won't be missed on the roads. We will miss your ching chongs and your bing bongs, and most importantly, we regret the loss of your much touted math skills. No more can you tutor our kids to get them into college. May flights of angels sing thee to thy rest. Amen.

Thoth wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

I agree, though a bunch of roles like this is necessarily going to fall prey to (2). This role and others like it exist as roles used in actual games.

Can you cite any roles from past games with a purely subjective chat restriction?

I can take a look back through the games on DebateArt, as that's the only place I remember anything like this being used (it'll have to wait until after work). The only case that come to mind is one where Speed was pretending he could only speak by including dog noises in his post because his character was a dog, though that ended up being a fake claim.

Helz wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

I agree, though a bunch of roles like this is necessarily going to fall prey to (2). This role and others like it exist as roles used in actual games. I'm not saying that it's unimportant as a result (part of the reason I didn't use it in my game is that I didn't want to have to deal with determining whether any given post by Luna was "drunk enough"), just that it's going to be generally hard to accept the existence of a role like this regardless of whether it's real or not.

3 points as clear as I can make them

1- Such a role is borderline offensive to the player. They are placed into a game with a constraint by the host, not the scum and nerfed to have no role at all on top of it. I would almost certainly refuse to play if a host gave me that.

2- Such a role is literally bastard. Its the hosts decision on a super vague demand if the condition is met or not and someone will die if they do not meet it impacting the game. So the host has direct impact on the game.

3- This is a modkill function and the very last game Lunatic was super pissed about a mod kill. It would be wild for them to then turn around and cram a modkill obligation on a player that is not even any sort of rule break kinda deal.

Im pretty stuck on this.

Regarding 1 and 2, again, I'm not arguing that the role itself is a good role or one that people should be using in the game, only that it exists as a role that gets some play. I agree, it's the reason I didn't use the role in my game despite considering it and having a character all prepped out to use it. And if your point is that, as a result, you don't expect a mod would include this role and instead would more easily believe that a player would fake it, I agree with that as well. The only reason why this case is different is because I literally discussed this exact role with Luna in my Frieren game, which is why I'm having more trouble just buying into that.

Regarding 3, yeah, that's a sticking point. Even if I believe Luna would want to have some fun with this role, I can't see him opening the door for a potential modkill. He'd have to be absolutely confident that Kohai wouldn't fuck it up.

wylted wrote:

If you guys do murder Casey you could have just done that without me swapping in btw and ruining my ability to swap in for somebody else.

Why would this ruin your ability to swap in for someone else? If we autolynched you and you're town, you'd still be able to swap in for someone else, right?

Did anyone claim jew as a character and if so who? This is a serious question I know lunatic is antisemitic so that person is scum

No one has claimed Jew as of yet, no. I'd definitely recognize them, though.

This is my weakness but I mostly base behavioral reads on what I generate in my interactions. But I will try to catch up here and there just because you asked

Cool.

wylted wrote:

I am actually not going to catch up with the game. I am just starting here on page 22 anything that happened prior to page 22 I will not even know about so catch me up or cash me outside

...Seriously? It is actually worth getting at least some behavioral reads, and those aren't going to come through in some summaries of what happened over the course of the DP. I can work on something when I get a chance, but at least try skimming through.

wylted wrote:

I'm actually a straight white man. That's my character. So technically the best character in the game so don't vote me.

Alright, please hold off on claiming anything further for now. Best to just focus on getting caught up when you can.

ILikePie5 wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Mikal wrote:

Kohai did functionally claim vanilla

Is no one reading this dp ....

Dude, he claimed a named role. I get that the role is functionally Vanilla in terms of night actions, but your line of questioning basically just assumed he was actually Vanilla in role. I don't get that.

Well, we don’t know what he claimed. He first claimed Town Drunk.

Yeah, I thought that was what he claimed.

Thoth wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Helz wrote:

On Kohai something I really do want people to give some thoughts on is if a negative chat modifier that can result in modkill on a Vanilla town role makes sense. That keeps getting glazed over and it pings me really hard. That role feels like a massive slap in the face to the point I question if its possible to exist.

As someone who strongly considered giving Luna this exact role (admittedly with a PR to accompany it - see Heiter in the Frieren game), I'm hesitant to say that it doesn't make sense. It's odd that that's all it is, but if there just isn't a lot of negative utility in play for town, I could see it being one way to insert it. It's not the way I'd do it, but I can only say it's implausible.

I mean, I thought about claiming in Magoroth’s abortive Apocalypse game that I had to communicate by prompting a large language model and posting the output. I don’t question the possibility of a chat requirement like this. What I doubt are (1) that it’s optional, which just makes it funny soft-claiming and (2) that meeting the requirement is subjective.

I agree, though a bunch of roles like this is necessarily going to fall prey to (2). This role and others like it exist as roles used in actual games. I'm not saying that it's unimportant as a result (part of the reason I didn't use it in my game is that I didn't want to have to deal with determining whether any given post by Luna was "drunk enough"), just that it's going to be generally hard to accept the existence of a role like this regardless of whether it's real or not.

RexFavilla wrote:

Pressuring Ultra seems silly. He's contributed at least something. Kohai's flip will tell us a lot about his affiliation given Kohai was piling on to his wagon. If its for inactivity there are better targets. Casey. Me. Why do we have four votes on him again? Seems like a desperate attempt to have a counterwagon at EoD so someone can argue 'we cant let Ultra get away with not claiming' if he's still awol and move the lynch off of Kohai.

I don't get this thinking. We can get Kohai's flip regardless, as he's almost certainly the lynch at this point. And yeah, we could push anyone who has low activity this game, you included. A choice was made based on someone who has contributed, but been very muted and somewhat inconsistent in those contributions. I don't care if he claims, but a set of clear reads after 21 pages isn't asking much.

While we're at it, your absence has been noted as well. Care to provide your own reads?

Kohai wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Kohai wrote:

whiteflame wrote:.

Kohai, just explain where your head was at. What were you aiming to do by testing reactions? Is there nothing to glean from them at all? Just lay out your thinking here, at least give us some reads to function from.

Hvnestly n0t en de best mindset. I konpletelt hallucinated the 3 lie optchions. I h@d to figure out how to git out of the hallucination nd et just made it worse.

I acknowledge that it didn't go over well, but you said you were trying to test reactions. To what? The 3 lie options, or something else?

I didnt think admittting to hallucinating wuld not go over well. I leid about makinng a reaktion test.

thatt said vncw i flip tuwn i am sure theee will be tuns of AI reaktions to actually go thru

Alright, not great. Still worth it to give some reads.

Helz wrote:

On Kohai something I really do want people to give some thoughts on is if a negative chat modifier that can result in modkill on a Vanilla town role makes sense. That keeps getting glazed over and it pings me really hard. That role feels like a massive slap in the face to the point I question if its possible to exist.

As someone who strongly considered giving Luna this exact role (admittedly with a PR to accompany it - see Heiter in the Frieren game), I'm hesitant to say that it doesn't make sense. It's odd that that's all it is, but if there just isn't a lot of negative utility in play for town, I could see it being one way to insert it. It's not the way I'd do it, but I can only say it's implausible.

Kohai wrote:

whiteflame wrote:.

Kohai, just explain where your head was at. What were you aiming to do by testing reactions? Is there nothing to glean from them at all? Just lay out your thinking here, at least give us some reads to function from.

Hvnestly n0t en de best mindset. I konpletelt hallucinated the 3 lie optchions. I h@d to figure out how to git out of the hallucination nd et just made it worse.

I acknowledge that it didn't go over well, but you said you were trying to test reactions. To what? The 3 lie options, or something else?