whiteflame

I was retarded to claim Soldier btw. I shoulda spent more time coming up with some bullshit. I can't believe scum apparently let me live.

I can't say I would have just claimed it if it was my actual role and was revealed in DP4, but I'm not going to hold that against you. That being said, if Bullish had somehow survived the NP, Shining would have been lynched by now. No way he was scum.

I can't copy-paste out of our chat, but, yes, Helz did suggest that his role could be called Vaporizer with a capital V and I went with it. He explicitly said that wasn't the role's official name, just what he was calling it.

So Helz actively gave away the exact spelling of his role with a capital letter at the front? Straight claiming an obviously scummy role like that was certainly a choice, just a shame we didn't force an explanation out of him sooner. Strikes me as odd that you didn't think to look it up.

I would like to point out that Pie included both an Innocent Child and a Soldier in MAGA Mafia, which had fewer players than this game does, in case either of you see that as a point against my claim. That, and my Soldier is a sort of play on the DP4 Innocent Child I had in that game.

Yeah, I looked back through his previous games and saw as much.

I've never been completely comfortable buying that Pie included two redirective roles despite the mod headache that can cause.

It's still unclear whether you're sussing me or just doubling down on winning this game with your role. Which is it?

Shining wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Shining wrote:

Something I am thinking about is that Thoth seemingly slipped calling Helz Vaporizer last DP.

I already mentioned that. Working on those ISOs I take it?

I am flipping through Thoth's DP1 and seeing how he interacted with Helz and Mikal. He goes back and forth sussing Helz and points out that the Helz Mikal argument isn't contrived. I can see a scum motivation to say that. Also, his claim could have been a gambit to justify why hes still alive. Just his behavior with Helz is strange.

Alright.

Thats not to say I'm 100% sure hes scum. Theres a world where you are scum too. You town read Mikal despite basically being a cc to him. Theres the issue of you being vanilliaised and given that Mikal and Helz aren't a vanilliaizer, you either lied or can't be scum.

I get the first point about Mikal, though I disagree that Mikal CC'd me just because he claimed a different redirection role. The latter I don't understand at all. Rex said he was Vanillaized, so you know there is a Vanillaizer. Are you questioning whether I chose to out the existence of a Vanillaizer an NP earlier despite being the Vanillaizer myself?

Shining wrote:

Something I am thinking about is that Thoth seemingly slipped calling Helz Vaporizer last DP.

I already mentioned that. Working on those ISOs I take it?

I’m not dead set on lynching Thoth here. I have points against Shining, too, but I’d like to see his ISO first.

Also, I mentioned this last DP, but with Helz's flip, we're almost certainly dealing with a theme split of Halogens vs. everyone else. Last scum is almost certainly Chlorine or Iodine, both of which kind of make some sense as a Vanillaizer now that I think about it since they're both known for cleaning purposes.

Thoth wrote:

Re: DP5 #149. I never sussed that because I had never heard of Vaporizer and Helz told me that Vaporizer was not his role’s official name.

...see, this is one of those things that just keeps bothering me, dude. This is what you said last DP when I finally pushed you to explain what you'd been told in your chat:

He did not use the term Rolestopper in our chat. He called it Vaporizer based on the justification, but said that name was not used in his DM, nor was Rolestopper. He then said that he was given a flavor name, which I figure means his role name (like Doctor, Tracker) but did not want to say it because of his self-imposed challenge. Why would he call it Vaporizer and bring up his justification but then decline to give his role's name? Your guess is as good as mine.

So either you or he capitalized the role. No one did that publicly before you said it in the DP. But on the one hand, you just saying Helz never told you "Vaporizer" was the role, and on the other hand, you just said you had never heard of it and didn't bother to look it up. Explain that.

Thoth wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Thoth wrote:

VTL: whiteflame

Thank you, Pie

Well, hat's off to you, man. You just straight up confirmed yourself scum to me. If Shining was scum, he would have already hammered me and we'd be in the endgame. Now all I have to do is wait for Shining to convince himself that I'm town and the game ends. Thanks for making it easy.

Do you know what the role Soldier is

So explain your thinking then because you were just saying you scumread me now. Are you putting a vote on someone you townread and daring Shining to hammer me?

Frankly, it was already pretty obvious. As I pointed out last DP, by process of elimination, I had good reason to believe that Shining was the target of the NP1 Vanillaizer. The fact that he didn't move NP4 definitely helped his case, too. Confirmed that he didn't commit the NK at minimum.

Thoth wrote:

VTL: whiteflame

Thank you, Pie

Well, hat's off to you, man. You just straight up confirmed yourself scum to me. If Shining was scum, he would have already hammered me and we'd be in the endgame. Now all I have to do is wait for Shining to convince himself that I'm town and the game ends. Thanks for making it easy.

Shining wrote:

Alright, I'm going to ISO the both of you.

Thats what I like to see.

Thoth wrote:

I would vote whiteflame since being Soldier means town wins as long as they don’t lynch me, but I can’t select him

I added myself to the game, bit of an oversight on Pie’s part.

As for the rest of this… so are you trying to vote me because you think I’m town, because you think I’m scum, or just because of your wincon? I guess it wouldn’t matter to you if you’re telling the truth, but this is not the way to win either of us over.

Alright, making dinner, so I'm not going to post for a bit. Thoth and Shining, feel free to get your thoughts out in the meantime.

Welp, nothing's changed my mind. If we lose, I'll take the L.

VTL: Helz

Also, Jewish. Not planning to go to church anytime soon.

Helz wrote:

You keep asking me for an explanation I do not have. I am not spoiled and I am not the host who can explain why what happened. I know I am town and I am not spoiled to know what happened and why. There is no reason at all for me to claim D2 that the person died and I was protecting them if I was scum. Just think about that. Why on earth as scum would I even reveal that info? What possible sense does that make? Much less doing so before everyone else had claimed their actions.

If I was scum at the very least the logical play would be for me to sit on my hands and not claim that result right off the bat until I knew I had to. There is no reason for me to make such a play as it just looks bad unless I simply am town and was honestly giving a critical piece of mechanical information to the town.

Yep, that certainly is some WIFOM. I've already talked about this.

Next time you go to your local church demand that the preacher explain gods reasoning for why your grandma died. If he can not explain it declare him evil. Because he does not have knowledge he can not possibly have he must be guilty!

You know, whether you're town or scum, the main problem I have with your responses is how quick you are to strawman or dismiss them as illogical. I don't care if you disagree with the point since, obviously, you have incentive to do so. But if your goal is to win me over to your argument, this isn't how you do it.

Anyway, I vote at 11 AM EST. I'll consider anything posted before that time, but I'm not doing this back-and-forth all morning, so unless it's something new for me to address, I won't be responding further.

Helz wrote:

New day and I still do not know what your on about.

Yeah, I have no idea why my action would have failed outside of the reasoning I gave. I am not the host with god level knowledge of what happened. Your asking me as if you think I know and I gave you the best assumption I have.

You outright said you have no idea how your role could have failed NP1. Your one explanation for how that would be possible you have acknowledged did not happen. I've asked for another, and your response was a shrug.

I have very strong reasoning I have very clearly explained for my read on you. Bullish gave the most vague reasoning while just flatly begging people to vote and insisting he was absolutely certain. That comparison is not good. The reason I question Bullish is between the PoE and their absolutely out of place read.

We've talked about Bullish. I'm not dismissing him.

For mech I do not really see Hider as much of a redirector. I see 2 redirectives. And I do not see having a lot of them as any sort of AI. Played a game once with 8 bus drivers. However too much invest is absolutely game breaking which is why I was critical of it. The same as I was critical about town having even just 2 town protectives. Its less about the amount and more about what fits from my experience.

So you think scum have 2 redirective roles and that Mikal personally outed that such a role is in this game to me in private chat and then publicly? I'll give you that that is the only explanation that can make sense of both your role failing and my being Redirected to Shining, but you're asking me to assume that 2 out of 3 of the scum in this game have a powerful redirection role. Forgive me if I find that hard to believe.

I guess we just loose as people refuse to think. Both of the scum are on me right now. Thats literally the scum team. And town just shut their brain off and is marching right off that cliff.

This is the part that bothers me the most, dude. I've been writing out a lot of thoughts about this game and been taking my time to consider everything thoroughly. I even posted something before I went to bed last night on Shining, which has been itching at my brain since DP2. I get if you're frustrated that I'm not considering your specific perspective as much as you'd like, but stop pretending that I'm not trying to logic this out.

While we're at it, thoughts on the theme split.

So Fluorine has a number of distinctive properties that would set it apart from everything else that has been claimed so far. I figure it signifies that we're dealing with one of three possible groups for scum:

Halogens - This is the most straightforward, it's just the entirety of the second to last column on the right of the table. You have Chlorine, Bromine, Iodine, Astatine and Tennessine in that group.

Extremely Reactive - Fluorine blows every other element out of the water in this department, but there are a lot of reactive metals. Francium, Rubidium, Sodium, and Potassium are also extremely reactive. The key one in this group that stands out? Cesium. It's the most reactive metal.

Electronegativity - Another department where Fluorine excels, this includes a very different set of elements. On the Pauling scale, in order, the top 4 are: Fluorine, Oxygen, Chlorine and... Nitrogen.

If I was a betting man, I'd bet on one of these 3 being the actual split between scum and town. One implicates Bullish, one implicates Helz, and the last suggests that all 3 character claims have been faked (since Mikal used Cobalt). I can't say I've got any strong reason to buy one over the other beyond just seeing Helz as scum for other reasons, but they could have faked their claim so that's not the strongest reason to push the electronegativity as theme split hypothesis.

Helz wrote:

1. Do you think scum have a second redirection role? We already know who Mikal used his night action on NP1 (me and Shining), so it cannot have been him. That, or do you have another explanation for how your role could have failed to protect Kohai NP1? Give me some idea of what you think the layout for scum night actions were here.
2. Why did you townread me after I claimed a different target than the one Rex confirmed? Even if you believe that there was another redirection role in play on the scum team (and you'd kind of have to given that Mikal had claimed to use his Magnet a set of targets that didn't include you or Kohai), I can't imagine just accepting the possibility of 3 redirection roles in this game at face value. You didn't accept that with investigatives.

For 1 I have not considered. I figured the absolute reason my action failed to protect was because of Mikal. Rex did have the result of you visiting Shining which is a solid question I do not have an answer to.

For 2 I town read you from analysis. It grew to mech confirmation over time but at the time I was town reading you I had unpacked the mech as far as I could and drew the conclusion that there is not information to do much with as I asked targeted questions and people chased their tail on the subject.

Everyone was focused on the redirective CC so I focused on the investigative CC. You will notice if we play together more I generally poke at what I feel is useful. If everyone is focused on 1 detail I start hunting for something others are missing given scum like to control the detail being focused on.

Well, I appreciate the responses, but yeah, the lack of explanation for the first one is something I can't ignore and your willingness to so strongly townread me when you're actively chewing out Bullish for his strong takes doesn't help. I get having a strong behavioral read, but I don't get just setting aside mechanics that don't fit into it. It's the same reason anyone rightfully expected me to be at least a little sus of Mikal even if I thought he was behaviorally town.

Similarly, the inconsistency between your perception of three investigatives and three redirective roles gives me pause. I get focusing on things that you perceive as useful information, but especially as the game developed, I don't understand how you could set this aside since, if I was you, I'd have remained pretty focused on why my role failed to protect the person I targeted.

Maybe that's just me and I shouldn't be imposing my view on you, but our individual night actions are the only things we know for certain. To me, it's weird not to focus on them. That's why I'm bringing up events from NP1 where I got the only night action I ever had off.

I'll post a vote before lunch, but I'll give you a chance to respond.

Helz wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

That's enough for me tonight. Helz, if you feel like actually addressing these, great. I'm going to get some sleep and just lay off of this for a while.

Take care. Sorry if things got abrasive.

It happens. Just a game, we move on.

Last thing I'm going to say tonight and it has nothing to do with Helz, but I'm posting it in case the DP ends overnight somehow and I don't survive the NP, which I'd say is plausible.

I keep coming back to my being Redirected to Shining in NP1. Mikal targeted me and Shining with the Redirector. I can believe my role was Redirected onto either a town or scum Shining, but we don't know the reason. The weird part is the Vanillaizer. Someone targeted either me or Shining with it. I can't make sense of why scum would both Redirect and Vanillaize me in the same night. Maybe scum would just be that nervous about my role that they would only want a modified action on the first night and no action beyond that, but I can't say I buy into that. So that leads me to the conclusion that Shining got targeted by the Vanillaizer. If that's true, he's town.

Please, at least consider this DP6 if I'm not here.

That's enough for me tonight. Helz, if you feel like actually addressing these, great. I'm going to get some sleep and just lay off of this for a while.

Then stop citing a post thats citing a post thats asking vague questions and just ask a fucking question. What is so hard about that?

I already answered what I think happened in N1. I already answered your confusion about my conversation with Thoth and I already claimed every single possible detail about my role and what my flavor is. What are you even asking me?

Wake up and stop quoting a thing that quotes a thing that rambles about vague shit thats already been covered and just ask a simple question.

I'm just going to stop responding on the issue of claiming your character. I've said my piece on it. If you find that frustrating, I sincerely don't care anymore.

As for this, if your responses so far are truly the extent of how you're going to respond - with absolutely no mechanical analysis or details on how you think things went down for at least that NP1 night action to play out the way it did - then yeah, we're done here. You can call it vague, you can chew me out for repeating the point that you just haven't responded to over and over, but it's a sticking point for me. So I'll lay it out one more time with specific questions, and then I'm calling it a night. You'll have all the time you want to address them, and depending on the answers, I'll vote tomorrow morning.

Based on what you said, you targeted Kohai NP1. Kohai died anyway. Your role, the Vaporizer or whatever you took to calling it (I seriously don't give a fuck anymore), is an all-encompassing absolute block, so Kohai could not possibly have been the target of a night action, including an NK. You said yourself it should have neutralized all night actions that targeted him. You then pointed to the possibility of a Redirector or other movement of the target as a viable explanation.

So, questions:

1. Do you think scum have a second redirection role? We already know who Mikal used his night action on NP1 (me and Shining), so it cannot have been him. That, or do you have another explanation for how your role could have failed to protect Kohai NP1? Give me some idea of what you think the layout for scum night actions were here.
2. Why did you townread me after I claimed a different target than the one Rex confirmed? Even if you believe that there was another redirection role in play on the scum team (and you'd kind of have to given that Mikal had claimed to use his Magnet a set of targets that didn't include you or Kohai), I can't imagine just accepting the possibility of 3 redirection roles in this game at face value. You didn't accept that with investigatives.

Helz wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Helz wrote:

WF. Get to your point. You are acting like I have not been up front with things and I have been nothing but honest. Please do not ruin this for the town. Its as simple as Shining/Bullish

I made my point. I've now linked to you several times the specific point about mechanics that has been the major reason I've sussed you this DP, and I still don't see a response. I can't tell if you've just missed it every single time or you're refusing to answer it, but here we are, in the same position with you defending yourself on points that just upset me behaviorally. If you can't find it, check back, it's not hard. If you found it and you just refuse to answer for some reason, give that reason. Otherwise, we're done here.

Yeah. About clear as mud. You can not clearly say what you are even asking and acting like its on me that your not getting a clear answer. Kill me and tank the game for town. Its simply Bullish/Shining. There is nothing complicated about this situation. Pick the order they go in if you want but you are going to loose this game for us.

Just. Fucking. Read. And. Respond. To. Post. #89. That's all I'm asking, that's all I want.

Helz wrote:

The way this site is cool with angle shooting if I was a lesser man I would post contracts and designs. I really hate hearing that I refused anything though and will cut back to "Point to a single thing I have not answered." The only thing I have refused is to unpack the details of my flavor which I want nothing to do with and a town was mod killed over.

You want to screw around with flavor and think there is something to the pools go for it. Im not touching that with a 10 foot pole

Again, and I'm going to repeat this as many times as it takes, I AM NOT SUSSING YOU BASED ON FLAVOR. I'm not angleshooting, either. But I sure as hell am going to point to the odd fact that the person who kept defending themselves over the last two DPs as "I full claimed already" when I asked about your character hadn't posted it. That's weird. It's not the main reason I'm sussing you, but I can't ignore it, either. It gave you a lot of leeway to wait until everyone had already posted their character to post yours. That's it, end of story. If it upsets you for me to point it out, then so be it, but I can't help how I see it.

Helz wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

He refused to claim his character. He told you his role. We repeatedly pointed to the lack of a character claim from him multiple times in this DP. You refused to convey the specific information on how he named that role, which was literally the only missing piece, for half the day because "it's rude." It's frustrating, man.

How did I refuse? I was working. Literally got a badass architect for a construction project and had a board meeting for my motorcycle shop and went to the American Legion and structured the contract for rental of a portion of the building. What part of that was a refusal?

I'm just done with this, dude. Again, not even a major reason for my sussing you. The way you set these challenges for yourself is your own business, I just don't get how you could continue to believe that you'd claimed Nitrogen at any point in this game before this DP. That's baffling because it's objectively wrong. It's not a read, but it's baffling.

Helz wrote:

WF. Get to your point. You are acting like I have not been up front with things and I have been nothing but honest. Please do not ruin this for the town. Its as simple as Shining/Bullish

I made my point. I've now linked to you several times the specific point about mechanics that has been the major reason I've sussed you this DP, and I still don't see a response. I can't tell if you've just missed it every single time or you're refusing to answer it, but here we are, in the same position with you defending yourself on points that just upset me behaviorally. If you can't find it, check back, it's not hard. If you found it and you just refuse to answer for some reason, give that reason. Otherwise, we're done here.

Thoth wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

You're in here now saying that he never claimed. So it's somehow "kinda rude to claim" that he'd never stated his character in chat and had actively given you his role by name. Seriously?

Nani? Helz full-claimed his role and justification to me. I was under the impression that he had probably claimed his element in public earlier and did not check. That's why I said earlier this DP that Helz had full-claimed to me.

He refused to claim his character. He told you his role. We repeatedly pointed to the lack of a character claim from him multiple times in this DP. You refused to convey the specific information on how he named that role, which was literally the only missing piece, for half the day because "it's rude." It's frustrating, man.

Thoth wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Then he posted repeatedly in here that he already had full claimed, despite never having done so.

Maybe he has a different idea of what full-claiming means than you do.

He's been through enough games with us at this point to know. I don't buy this.

And he specifically called his role Rolestopper despite now saying that the role doesn't have a name. Do I have that correct?

He did not use the term Rolestopper in our chat. He called it Vaporizer based on the justification, but said that name was not used in his DM, nor was Rolestopper. He then said that he was given a flavor name, which I figure means his role name (like Doctor, Tracker) but did not want to say it because of his self-imposed challenge. Why would he call it Vaporizer and bring up his justification but then decline to give his role's name? Your guess is as good as mine.

So you grabbed the term Rolestopper, and he used the term Vaporizer, which he now claims he said was just "I vaporize." Great, lovely. Glad after spending the whole DP trying to square away basic information we finally have some accurate information about his claim from your chat.

Helz wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Is this your first time character claiming even inside of your chat, or did you claim something else there? Which is it? Because Thoth is saying he'll confirm what you say. Did you wait until this DP to claim your character anywhere at all, which is a baffling choice when you were townreading Thoth, or did you claim something different?

I do not think so. I think I said it in public chat before. I could be wrong. But no, I did not claim flavor in my chat with Thoth and I flatly voiced I do not want to think about or deal with that cancer in my life this game before the game even started.

You are objectively wrong. It's not a "could be wrong" scenario, we can all check this. You can check this at your leisure. Anytime you want. If you want to put this all down to your decision to challenge yourself, be my guest, but at least own what you did. Stop pretending you thought you did something else.