Shining wrote:
I should ISO you because you were in a chat with Mikal DP2. Do you want to summarize how you felt about Mikal while I ISO you?
Feel like I was pretty clear about my perception of Mikal last DP, but too much of his stated actions and motivations for them didn't line up. I felt he was behaviorally town in our chat together, but even I couldn't ignore some of the obvious gaps in logic and consistency.
Bullish wrote:
My D2 target was you. I do not believe I even revealed that outside of my chat with Thoth.
Recall that I targeted NP2 whiteflame on NP3, and received negative on motion. Helz can't walk this claim back if he's already revealed it to Thoth.
It is possible however, being the only claimed protective at the time, Helz was redirected away.
Yeah, this is part of the problem. I'm waiting on establishing the full claim before I get into more.
Bullish wrote:
No movement on Shining last NP.
Last NP? So you checked whether he moved NP4?
Shining wrote:
No need to be so antsy. Glad that Thoth has finally claimed, I remember playing that. I am not feeling too well IRL, but so far I plan on lunching Helz. So the game plan right now is have Helz fullclaim and then we can hash out his behavior this game.
It's been 5 hours since the DP started and this is your second post. I get contributing less if you're ill, but this isn't the point to rest on one scumread that you haven't explained at all beyond the lack of any character claim either of us can find. If he's scum, who is he paired with? There are 3 other players left in this game, myself included, and I have no idea how you see any of us right now.
You're welcome to come in here and gloat about Mikal, but I'm mainly interested in your reads at this point (do you still think it's Shining and Helz?), as well as any info we can glean from your role.
Shining wrote:
Alright...that was an interesting DP. Looking at Helz right now. Did he character claim?
Seriously, though, please contribute to this DP. Detailed thoughts.
Thoth wrote:
Has Helz at any point provided their full claim publicly? Because he keeps saying he has and I haven’t seen it. If not, I can’t think of a reason for either of you to hold back on it at this point.
Not sure. I think he claimed more about his role than he said publicly. Maybe. I will ISO him to check when I am on my computer.
Alright, I'll wait that out. I've got more thoughts on what Helz has claimed so far in terms of actions, though I'd like them to be fully informed by the role claim in particular.
Thoth wrote:
I’ve been very, very tempted to lie about my role so I can increase the chance that I can use it, but whiteflame is right that there’s no room for error here, and any lie could backfire hard. I am Soldier. Justification is that oganesson can always outweigh the last scum because it is the heaviest element ever discovered by atomic mass.
Alright, I’ll think on that.
Did Helz full claim to you?
Yes
Has Helz at any point provided their full claim publicly? Because he keeps saying he has and I haven’t seen it. If not, I can’t think of a reason for either of you to hold back on it at this point.
This should be a “needless to say,” but no one should post a vote. With presumably 2 scum remaining, a vote in the wrong place could result in a quick lynch and game over.
Did Helz full claim to you? I understand townreading someone who you were in chat with for a while, I did the same for Mikal, but I want to get a full view of why you’re townreading him. If there’s something he revealed in chat with you beyond what he’s mentioned here, spill it.
I encourage anyone to try to find where Helz character claimed because I am lost. For that matter, I can’t find a clear role claim, either, just statements that his role would have prevented any night actions from hitting his target, including the NK. That was interpreted as a “Rolestopper,” but that’s more than a Rolestopper usually does from what I’ve read and, as far as I can tell, Helz never said that was his role.
Helz wrote:
whiteflame wrote:
Helz, I want you to walk me through your claim. If you did character claim (you may have at some point), I can't seem to find it, so lay out your full claim and remind me of your targets NP1 and NP2.
Im sorry but no. I have full claimed and I was very clear I would not discuss flavor this game. I hate flavor as any AI function and we have already had a town mod killed for screwing around with it. I have seen absolutely nothing of value in anyone flavor details even looking at 8 flips. I was very clear about this D1 and I believe I even said as much before I ever had a role in the end of game chat for the last one I was in if I remember correctly.
Then point me to the post where you claimed. Sorry, but I’m not letting this go. There’s a theme split, no one else seems interested in it, but I am, particularly now that we have our first scum flip. Unlike you, apparently, I do see something of value in it. If that’s a problem for you and you’re going to make me dig through your posts to find your full claim, so be it, but I’d prefer this be straightforward and simpler since I’m going to be out and about for the next couple of hours and can’t do that exhaustive search.
My D1 target was Kohai. I wanted to prevent any action on them because they were the innocent child. The kill happened anyways which now makes sense with Mikals flip.
My D2 target was you. I do not believe I even revealed that outside of my chat with Thoth.
N3 I was vandalized. This is part of why I am in the hard position that Thoth is town. I straight up told them I am 2x in our chat. If they were scum then scum would not have targeted me to remove my role. Weird world potential of them thinking I was giving misinformation there but if they felt I was such an extreme risk they could have just moved me around with Mikal and killed me. I will also say that in our chat Thoth tried to trap me which was an excellent look.
Alright, useful info, thank you.
Really the PoE is just too tight today. The scum team is exactly Bullish and Mikal. Thoth and WF are lock town imo.
Can’t say I’m that solid yet, but I get why you would be.
But anyways, gotta work. Will be pretty inactive today. I think the game is pretty much solved though.
Given Mikal's flip, I have thoughts on plausible theme splits, but I'm going to keep those to myself until we have every claim on the table in full.
Alright, so time for some thoughts.
Mag1c dying, particularly with a claim of a protective role, isn't too surprising. Scum have some reason at least to leave the door open on whether Bullish is scum or not, and especially considering that the Dreamer result doesn't make it certain that there was only one scum in that group of 3, I think he needs to still be a consideration. He would have been bussing Mikal pretty hard to do it, but that's not beyond him.
Bullish, you presumably used your role last NP. Lay out what you did.
Thoth, you need to claim your role this DP. You had an NP to make use of your role since you found about what it did DP4, but there's no excuse this time around. We're still at LYLO, there's no room for error.
Helz, I want you to walk me through your claim. If you did character claim (you may have at some point), I can't seem to find it, so lay out your full claim and remind me of your targets NP1 and NP2.
Shining, I'm looking for reads this DP. To my recollection, you haven't given much in the way of thoughts on Helz and I'd like to know how you're perceiving Bullish at this point.
Going to reduce DP time to 48 Hours.
Please note the change to the length of the DP. We shouldn't require 72 hours anyway, but it's important to remember nonetheless.
I'll get in on this.
I'll be back in the afternoon, got an opening debate argument to round out.
Mikal wrote:
Cus i had enough of a read after that didnt see the need. Only person I could safely target was you and in a world where you are scum, you would have had to been doing the nk [at least in my head] cus the focus was anywhere but you.
Was debating and doing graduation shit all weekend so got pinged by pie to hurry the fuck up when I was out and just said waive for simplicity.
Yeah... I don't love that. You had a strong townread on me during NP2, but that didn't stop you from saying you used your role on me that NP just to check. You being busy makes some sense (though NP3 ended a lot faster so it's hard to believe Pie was on your ass about it), but you just not seeing the point doesn't.
As for this idea that we're just frustrated enough by the failure to hit scum over the last few DPs, I get it, I'm frustrated too. Doesn't mean this is where I give up and just let things go to shit. The game is not over and we shouldn't pretend it is.
Mikal wrote:
Can we just hammer me and move to the next game. No one is going to listen and at the spot where I just stop caring. One of those games where we just need to lose and town can feel like shit after. Even wf just yolo swapped after locking bullish as likely as scum the entire game. I have an entire coherent thought process for why I chose to do things. Have been consistent and chose to cc a fucking claimed lighting rod as a redirector when I could pivot after he claimed. Just ready to move on
Can't believe scum bullish wins this with argument
I haven't even voted you yet, what's with this defeatist attitude? I've made my opinion clear, but no, I haven't settled on anything yet. I'll ask, though: since you say you used your role on me NP2 because I said I was Vanillaized and you figured that would confirm it without interfering with anyone else's role, why didn't you do the same to Rex NP3 instead of just ceding the NP?
Shining wrote:
Its just a summary bro. What more do you want from me? How many times do we need to go through with this shit? Its not my fault we had a big DP1 and then everyone decided to sleep in all game.
Reads. I'm looking for reads, man. Don't pretend the game stopped having anything meaningful to go through just because there was less activity in DP2 and DP3. There's plenty there. I haven't gotten your thoughts on basically any of it, and being dismissive of there even being take-aways makes no sense to me at all.
It's great that you're here and you're active, but considering how little I have in the way of posts to read you behaviorally and considering how flawed your reads were last DP, the fact that you're being this dismissive is bothering me.
Shining wrote:
I'm on. I am Uranium and I am the bomb. My justification is that Uranium can been used to build bombs. Uranium has a large nucleus and when spilt, triggers a chain reaction that releases a lot of energy resulting in an explosion.
Alright, at least that's something. I'll hold off on judgement of the claim for now, but especially given that you were last to claim I'm a little hesitant to take it at face value.
Per my reads, I am leaning towards Mikal. Bullish isn't exactly towny, but Mikal is worse and given that Casey's dream is confirmed... for the rest, Thoth is possibly scum and I don't like how they are cagey at a time like this and now is the time we should throw down all our cards. I'm not sure about you or the rest, but Mikal first.
Going to need more than this, man. Deciding between Mikal and Bullish is one thing, but not having reads on me, Helz or Mag1c at all is just beyond me at this point. You have 3 full DPs worth of information and nothing to say about any of us except you're not sure?
Pinged you above without saying anything to or about you, so I'll remedy that.
You need to full claim when you get on and I need to see a set of reads. This is getting ridiculous. You posted a grand total of two times last DP, the first of which sussed three players, two of whom are dead and flipped town. You've given no insight into how you perceive Mikal vs. Bullish despite recognizing in your last post that attention would be on the two of them. Contribute to this DP.
Helz wrote:
As a town I feel like we are very inactive. Im not seeing very much analysis and mostly the only things focused is on mech with minimal digging.
If we are going to keep going down this road it could be good to do a 'follow the sheriff' play. I feel like pretty much every player in the game could lock WF as town based upon mech. I also very strongly see Thoth as town which gives me an easy 3/4 PoE. We could default to working off that town block for a solve if others agree.
I think we've been too skittish to consider mech in many of the lynches we've had so far. That's partially on me since there was so much fuckery apparent in NP1 that we still only have some idea of what went on then. My main consideration is how everyone played out their roles and why, but that's just a starting point for analysis this DP.
In terms of Thoth, I'm hesitant to give him a strong townread, but given that he's not the focus of attention this DP, I'm at least considering giving him a pass for now and seeing where it takes us next DP. Continuing to refuse to claim then would be a different story.
Mikal wrote:
As mentioned. Misunderstood what it did is why I didnt question it
Alright, I'll set that aside for now and give others a chance to chime in.
Helz wrote:
whiteflame wrote:
Much as I’m not exactly lauding Bullish’s choice of target, I do think that that is the choice he’d make as town with this role. If he’s scum, I have trouble believing he’d continue to lean into getting results on me. Bullish had a lot of options that were easy layups to support both his night action and his target’s or draw sus towards someone. He did neither, he basically just went for validating that I was indeed Vanillaized and therefore no longer visiting nor worth being visited. Wouldn’t be my choice, but I’m not surprised it’s his.
Leaning towards lynching Mikal at this point.
I do agree that town would want to verify the Vanalized players. Its exactly how I would use the role. I am a bit confused why he did not use it on Rex and you though.
Well, I'll give this much to both of them, they each tried to verify whether I was Vanillaized. In Bullish's case, I get looking back at previous claims of movement rather than present ones when he had the option. Considering he'd already checked me NP1 and I was the only one Vanillaized before NP2, it wouldn't have made sense to check me again and he had no reason to check Rex. I think it would have made more sense for him to check someone else in NP3, but if he was uncertain about me (and he was outright scumreading me, so yes), then I made sense as a target to investigate. Still a weak choice IMO considering the Vanillaizer was corroborated by Rex, but I can buy that that's where he went with it.
Harder to buy that from Mikal who could have used his role on Rex last night under the same logic he used for using it on me, but refused to do so.
Im also confused on how the time traveler function is suppose to work. My limited understanding is that its suppose to see back in time to any day if a player had movement which creates the question of why visit WF twice if after once at some point you could verify every single day if they moved?
Based on how Bullish has stated it, the role functions the same as a Motion Detector, which means it's identical to the Mafia Universe post.
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Time%20Traveller
He can detect any movement to or from the target on a night he selects.
Mikal wrote:
I thought he said it detected if you moved. I misunderstood then
Then yeah. Just more reasons hes shitty.
Based on what he said and what I've read of the role, it's a Motion Detector that can investigate for current and past NPs, so yes, it would detect if there was any movement, not just mine.
Mikal wrote:
I redirected you to bullish and you would not have moved regardless which is why I targeted you?
Am I missing something I should be paying attention to
His role is Time Traveler. He would have detected your visit to me.
Mikal wrote:
Not sure what else to say other than I really don't want to lose. Wf knows my thought process better than anyone because of the chat with him. It makes no sense to claim the way I did after he claimed. It wasnt like i was caught on the spot. Sure i didnt soft but I basically chose to cc him. I wish that would have played out here because he is the only one that watched it play out
I get your thought process, though at this point, I can't just go off of a behavioral read. There's too much else on the table from Bullish in terms of what he claims to have done and the early softclaim, which came off as a lot clearer than Casey's. I do think there was a risk to you claiming Magnet (though I think you would have had that one prepped in advance, and holding off claiming after I'd claimed my role would've looked sus to me), namely because you could theoretically have been Tracked to both your targets and, if you were scum, the result would not match your targeting me and Luna NP1. You might have relied on the whole "scum have a redirection" mechanic, though, since you brought up the possibility of a bus driver pretty early. It's not the cleanest story, but then neither is mine.
Bullish saying he double tapped wf is just lmao and if town believes that. Not sure what else to say to convince you. I even said he should have claimed last dp and now you get a very safe and dumb as shit action list
One odd thing that stands out: you should be challenging the notion that I wasn't visited. You claimed to have visited me NP2 and redirected me to Bullish. If that happened, then he should have gotten a positive result. I get that it's either him or you and having conflicting night actions is basically to be expected, but I'm surprised you haven't pointed this out.
He has no risk in his role. Mine can harm. Sure chosing not to act doesn't validate what i did but he literally cant harm town and chose the most optimal people to target after everyone had already claimed.
I mean, it would have been pretty easy for him to claim that he targeted someone who said they had a night action, or someone who they visited. There was a risk to picking me, since I still might have been visited (as you claimed to visit me).
Im also just getting frustrated this has played out like this. Asked for this to happen yesterday. No one listened and luna yeeted himself and puts us in a bad situation. I still want to win but im getting in the headspace that im just wanting to die and move on to the next game. If wf has flipped his read we are cooked and the fact no one wanted to listen to anything I was saying in earlier dps to simplify this, just makes me more frustrated. Ill answer and reply but have stuck a whole lot of effort into trying to win this even having shit going on irl and if this is how we drown then so be it.
Yep, I would have preferred a Bullish lynch instead of Luna being modkilled, especially since I would have townread a clearer justification from Luna and almost certainly would have just lynched you if Bullish flipped town. Would've made this all a good deal more certain.
Much as I’m not exactly lauding Bullish’s choice of target, I do think that that is the choice he’d make as town with this role. If he’s scum, I have trouble believing he’d continue to lean into getting results on me. Bullish had a lot of options that were easy layups to support both his night action and his target’s or draw sus towards someone. He did neither, he basically just went for validating that I was indeed Vanillaized and therefore no longer visiting nor worth being visited. Wouldn’t be my choice, but I’m not surprised it’s his.
Leaning towards lynching Mikal at this point.
