whiteflame

RexFavilla wrote:

I targeted Luna during the NP. I thought, as a result, that I had drawn off roles that were used against Luna. Based on your Tracker result, that was incorrect. Instead, my target was somehow changed to Shining.

Since Mikal used his Magnet on Luna and directed him to me, if we're buying Luna's claim, he would have hid behind me with his Compulsive Hider despite targeting you.

So Pie just confirmed to me that Mikal's hypothetical magnet role would process BEFORE Whiteflame's lightning rod, and that a vanillaizer would process after both. Asking about other roles and trying to map this out right now.

That is consistent with how Pie told me the order of operations would play out.

RexFavilla wrote:

Also how, specifically, does your lightning rod work? Can you both explain your roles in a clear, simple way?

Keeping it as simple as possible:

My Lightning Rod draws all night actions aimed at my target to me. So if the NK was aimed at my target, that would have hit me instead. If your Tracker role had been aimed at my target, you would have learned who I visited instead of who your target visited.

Based on what I've learned of Mikal's role, he's the Magnet. His works similarly, but distinctly: he chooses two targets, and essentially directs the actions of one target to another. In this case, he chose Luna and directed Luna's night action to me.

So, breaking it down, here's what happened:

I targeted Luna during the NP. I thought, as a result, that I had drawn off roles that were used against Luna. Based on your Tracker result, that was incorrect. Instead, my target was somehow changed to Shining.

Since Mikal used his Magnet on Luna and directed him to me, if we're buying Luna's claim, he would have hid behind me with his Compulsive Hider despite targeting you.

The end result was that both Mikal and I ended up in a Mason chat together (after some discussion, we concluded that this had to be the result of some external Mason who could make chats for others, though this has yet to be confirmed) and I was Vanillaized. Setting aside the Mason chat, my being Vanillaized could have happened one of three ways:

1) I was targeted by a Vanillaizer

2) Shining was targeted by a Vanillaizer and my Lightning Rod changed the target to me

3) Luna was targeting someone else with the Vanillaizer and Mikal's Magnet shifted his target to me

It's a lot, but hopefully that makes sense.

Lunatic wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

So I'll just be clear about my thoughts on Casey as well.

I can't say I'm outright scumreading Casey, but I can see Mikal's point that lynching Casey would either verify their result or take down one scum. I'm balancing that against the likelihood that scum Casey claims this role before knowing what so many players did during the NP, which places them at great risk of being told they were visited. As Luna has already mentioned, he's taken that kind of risk before. It's absolutely not unheard of. We are also unaware of the roles scum has, which could give them some indication of who visited whom and at least narrow the field to a few unknowns. Still, I've been slightly townreading Casey, but I can see the value in lynching them and I think it should be considered seriously.

Also casey taking the risk of claiming dreamer right off the bat when she was the number one other major wagon is another thing to factor in. Me risking it was still risky in Russia mafia just because I am an active player and a likely visit, but her claiming it as scum would be basically throwing, she should have assumed as scum someone would have visited her. Extreme amounts of risk for for extreme amounts of reward, but that reward isn't paying off since shes still being talked about being lynched. I think their just town, and its probably mikal. I know he's gonna throw a bitch fit about it so I probably won't engage much with him. I'll read his arguments and if there is anything new or convincing, I will take it with a grain of salt, but just spam repeating the same shit and using expletives, calling people dumb for not seeing it, etc, probably isn't going to do much to convince me.

If anything, the point that Casey was the other major wagon last DP is a point in their disfavor. That kind of attention encourages either big, risky plays or attempts to vanish into the background, and yeah, this could very well be the former. I disagree that it's throwing unless we just assume scum have no idea what happened during the NP. In that case, yeah, it would be a massive risk, one that could pay off pretty handsomely if it worked, but I also can't say that they had no way to reduce it, particularly since I'm aware they had a hand in manipulating my night action. As for the risk pays off, that remains to be seen.

In terms of whether I see Mikal as scum, I've already given my thoughts on that. Assuming no one comes forward and says that they put us in a Mason chat together, it likely is a "magnets attract" situation, and yes, that basically confirms Mikal is Cobalt and strongly suggests that Mikal is actually the Magnet, since I am not. I can't ignore that our roles are so similar, but I also can't ignore that he claimed after I claimed with a very similar role, something I don't think Mikal is likely to do with a fake claim. My experience with him behaviorally in chat has also given me reason to townread him. I'm still wary of him too given our very similar roles, but I can't ignore that he's basically the most confirmed player in terms of character and role for me in this game.

So I'll just be clear about my thoughts on Casey as well.

I can't say I'm outright scumreading Casey, but I can see Mikal's point that lynching Casey would either verify their result or take down one scum. I'm balancing that against the likelihood that scum Casey claims this role before knowing what so many players did during the NP, which places them at great risk of being told they were visited. As Luna has already mentioned, he's taken that kind of risk before. It's absolutely not unheard of. We are also unaware of the roles scum has, which could give them some indication of who visited whom and at least narrow the field to a few unknowns. Still, I've been slightly townreading Casey, but I can see the value in lynching them and I think it should be considered seriously.

Helz wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Helz wrote:

I still think the chat creator should claim. That will limit the PoE and we can do a lot with that depending on who that claiming person is. Also scum is not exactly gona focus on killing some player because they create a chat.

Bullish mentioned this earlier in the DP in #148 and Mikal can back me when I say I surmised as much myself in chat with him, but there's a more than decent chance that the chat we're in was auto-generated as a result of our both being magnets. It doesn't make either of us town by default, but it does validate our character claims.

Im not thinking or speaking about anything flavor related this game. But in general I would like to assume things happen because of roles before considering some unspoken wild mechanic may exist.

I agree, but given that everyone has posted at this point and no one has mentioned being responsible for us being in a Mason chat, I'm looking for alternative explanations. I'd be happy to be wrong.

Lunatic wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

I'm going to knock off earlier tonight and read through the DP fresh tomorrow. I'll say I'm pretty split between Bullish and Luna atm for very different reasons.

Its strange to me how you are now completely town reading mikal.

I didn't say I'm completely townreading him, I gave my full read in a previous post. I have a slight townread on him based on behavior I've seen in our chats together and how he responded to my claim with his own. I'm still wary of him, but no, I wouldn't say he's the main person I'm paying attention to this DP.

Helz wrote:

I still think the chat creator should claim. That will limit the PoE and we can do a lot with that depending on who that claiming person is. Also scum is not exactly gona focus on killing some player because they create a chat.

Bullish mentioned this earlier in the DP in #148 and Mikal can back me when I say I surmised as much myself in chat with him, but there's a more than decent chance that the chat we're in was auto-generated as a result of our both being magnets. It doesn't make either of us town by default, but it does validate our character claims.

Now I really am going to head off.

See, this is the sort of super specific, highly technical stuff I see in my own role and the flips we have already. Gives me good vibes. Though it is still very strange that Rex saw you visit Shining.

I'd love to say I know how that happened. Trusting that I was manipulated into visiting a different target is not a given. The best I can say is that it confirms I didn't commit the NK, but here we are. I would point back to the last DP where I said I thought I was likely to die during the night as evidence that I had a role along the lines of Lightning Rod, but I recognize that's a light soft.

So long story short, I don't expect anyone to take me at my word that my night action went the way it did. Took me a while to put the details together and Rex's result threw me for yet another loop. I thought I'd drawn off some roles targeting Luna, but either they targeted me or apparently they targeted Shining.

I'm going to knock off earlier tonight and read through the DP fresh tomorrow. I'll say I'm pretty split between Bullish and Luna atm for very different reasons.

Worthwhile to add my name to the justification tracker.

Long story short, it focuses on the electron configuration and magnetic dipoles, though the key sentences focus on how its unquenchable magnetism leads to anisotropy. In plain language, that means it channels things along specific paths, focusing their direction. So yeah, surprise surprise, it's property for me.

Banana wrote:

why does bullish look off to u

To start, I don't know how much I buy the existence of a Dreamer/Tracker/Time Traveler in this game. I have good reason to buy the Tracker despite Rex not matching my results, and much as I have to question it, I think Casey is more likely than not telling the truth. So that leaves Bullish as the odd man out. On that front, his reaction to Casey's claim looks odd to me, as does his statement that his result implicated me. Chalking that last bit up to miscommunication, but still can't ignore it.

Casey_Risk wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Casey_Risk wrote:

The justification makes passable sense. I think I remember a game with this role, but it’s a while back and I’m not going digging.

I think it was CoD Black Ops Mafia. There was a role like it in that game

Damn, you have a better memory for this stuff than I do. Well done.

I pride myself on having really good game memory. It's probably my best quality as a Mafia player imho

You have many good qualities as a Mafia player, but always good to have an ace in the hole.

Banana wrote:

wyt of mikal pointing to casey/bullish

I can understand it. Bullish looks really off to me, and while I'm tempted to townread Casey, I get the paranoia about them being scum and using this to put attention elsewhere. It wouldn't be a first.

Casey_Risk wrote:

The justification makes passable sense. I think I remember a game with this role, but it’s a while back and I’m not going digging.

I think it was CoD Black Ops Mafia. There was a role like it in that game

Damn, you have a better memory for this stuff than I do. Well done.

Bullish wrote:

Things is I thought about claiming only the motion detector part, but I couldn't come up a justification for that without the time traveling part, so I had to out everything.

Not questioning the decision to out your role in full here.

Implicate as in involve, not incriminate.

I'm not going to split hairs on this, but your use of the word could use work in this instance.

Bullish wrote:

I wanna note that pie technically named my role "Time Traveller", but it's basically retroactive motion detector. There's no justification for the motion detector part.

At least from what I've read about the role, that seems accurate. Do you get to select the night?

I was going for someone who was least likely to have someone visit them, but also not totally inactive. There are 3 ways to catch a lie with this role.

"no motion" - someone claimed they visited my target - someone is lying

"no motion" - my target claims they performed an action - my target is lying

"yes motion" - my target claims a passive/vanilla role, AND no one else claims they visited my target - either my target is lying or scum visited them.

But like I said the idea is to wait for everyone to out, then catch a lying action retroactively, so the NP1 target was probably the least important one.

I still don't get how your result implicates me. I get that it can implicate your target, but not how it implicates me this DP.

You know what's funny, my results also implicate whiteflame. 

…how?

Anyway I am time traveling motion detector. Cesium is used to define the SI unit for time, that's the justification.

The justification makes passable sense. I think I remember a game with this role, but it’s a while back and I’m not going digging.

So on NP1 I'm effectively just a regular motion detector. I targeted whiteflame. With all the actions that happened I obviously got an affirmative on motion.

So you confirmed that, yes, I did a thing. No additional implications, just confirmation. I don’t recall this role having an NP1 night action before. Why did you target me?

Hardly just "shrugging it off". I have asked both of you what your thoughts are on the mess and neither of you have a clear answer towards it but "All I know is I am town". I don't really see the point in talking to just you two about it, I would like to see others comment, banana, shining, helz, magic, rex, etc.

I’m looking forward to more from them as well.

I'll give some basic thoughts for the time being. I'm going to leave aside a few people in going through this, mainly because they just haven't been the focus of this DP and I'd like to hear more from them before forming an opinion.

My opinion on Rex has shifted substantially to likely town. I don't think Rex bullshits this Tracker claim and, much as my target wasn't the person he says I visited, I find it difficult to believe that he'd have me visiting Shining as a way to get a quick lynch on me.

Mikal is tricky. His Magnet claim stood out the moment he mentioned it, especially since I'm Neodymium. My first thought on seeing my role is that it was surprising I wasn't the Magnet, though Cobalt makes sense for the role as well. Part of me just wants to accept it for reasons I've already mentioned. The fact that there are so many metals in the periodic table means that having two magnetic metals in play is not terribly surprising. A different part of me just can't shake the possibility that he saw an opportunity after I'd claimed and just went for the Magnet. It would be odd to pseudo-CC me like that and I don't think scum Mikal asks about the Magnet (though he might ask about Cobalt), so I'm slight town on Mikal atm.

Thoth is a tough nut to crack this game. My thoughts on his role haven't changed, but man, that DP4 stipulation is just going to grate on me continuously. I also worry that, even if he is town, he's taking some random night actions that are causing more trouble than we're aware of. Would he claim this as scum? It still seems unlikely, but I can't dismiss it. He's moved into my null pile.

Casey has only one post this DP and I'll admit I'm sussing it. Don't love that they came in here, posted results, and didn't post their character claim. On the one hand, that's a big swing. If someone had visited Casey during the NP, this would just automatically be proven impossible. Beyond that, we haven't gotten a lot of investigative roles so far, with only Rex's Tracker and this in play. On the other hand, this could just be a risky gambit and I could absolutely see a willingness to take this opportunity. Luna did it a while back. So I'd say null/slight scum.

As for Luna, I was townreading them about as much as anyone going into the last NP, but I can't say I've got a solid read on him this DP. I get confusion in response to all this, but not so much the shrug that he gave in his last post. I still want to townread him, but it's moving towards null.

Bullish I'd like to see more from, especially considering Casey's result. If scum is in that group, I can absolutely see it being Bullish, but I have next to nothing to read from him this DP beyond an excuse for being absent at the end of the last DP.

Want to see Banana post at all. Want to see more from Mag1c and Shining.

As for Helz, I think they've been pretty consistent with their DP1 play, which I found pretty townie. I'd like to see more updated thoughts based on everything we know about our night actions, but I'd say Helz is at least a town lean.

Lunatic wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Lunatic wrote:

Pretty sure this is whiteflame, has the most conflicting results with a claimed tracker and being countered by mikal is not a great look.

If you want to prove it to yourself, go ahead and push for my lynch. I can only speak to what I know happened. If you want to believe that I’d go through the trouble of making up a Vanillaizer, claiming a redirection role in a game that apparently has several, chose to visit Shining with a role that clearly wasn’t the NK, and somehow got added to a separate Mason chat in the mix, so be it, but I can’t remember a game where I was willing to take so many risks simultaneously as scum.

I just need some other solutions to this to make it make sense. If its not you, are you and mikal both town redirectors? I realize your slightly different, but still seems interesting. Are you not suspect of mikal if you are town? Do you think rex is lying about his results? Why or why not? Sure there could be other explanations for this but prima facie there are still questions, and barring no answers I have to assume someone is lying in all this mess.

Not going to pretend I have a strong townread on Mikal, but a couple of things are running through my mind when I think about it.

First, there were bound to be a lot of metals in this game. Mikal claimed he was the Magnet before I claimed mine and I’m also a very magnetic metal (Neodymium). Risky if it’s a fake claim given I already told him I was Lightning Rod.

Second, the Strengthener flip at least indicates that there’s a lot of meddling in play and I can believe multiple town redirection roles among them.

I’ve got another reason, though I’m keeping that one to myself until we get more claims.

No, I don’t think Rex is lying. It would be a pretty bold choice to say that I visited a different target, and I would think he’d be more likely to pick the NK over Shining. Doesn’t strongly implicate me, but it puts a potential lie to Rex.

As for whether anyone’s lying at all, I think that’s an open question. I could see Pie making this game in a way that would lead to a lot of pseudo-CCs and information from night actions that is going to be questionable at best.

Lunatic wrote:

Pretty sure this is whiteflame, has the most conflicting results with a claimed tracker and being countered by mikal is not a great look.

If you want to prove it to yourself, go ahead and push for my lynch. I can only speak to what I know happened. If you want to believe that I’d go through the trouble of making up a Vanillaizer, claiming a redirection role in a game that apparently has several, chose to visit Shining with a role that clearly wasn’t the NK, and somehow got added to a separate Mason chat in the mix, so be it, but I can’t remember a game where I was willing to take so many risks simultaneously as scum.

Thoth wrote:

I only got one ping last night. I assume Pie was sending them to everyone.

Alright, that makes more sense.

Mag1cman wrote:

I will say that Whiteflame pinged me for a night action last game just to ping everyone. I had no night action

I pinged you at the start of the DP because I was doing that to everyone. I got the impression that Thoth was saying he got a repeat ping in an attempt to get night actions in faster, though maybe I’m misreading it.

Helz wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

My experience with the Vanillaizer role is that it doesn't function as an RB for the night it's used. It effectively just turns you Vanilla for all future nights.

I have usually seen it behind other roles in the OoO. Allowing an action but then removing future actions.

Im asking host questions about it but also one of the reasons every game my very first question to the host is what is the OoO. Got a pretty vague answer this one

Yeah, I'm looking for some specific answers on OoO this time. There's a lot that has to process and the order matters.

Helz wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Just some thoughts on how the NP could have played out given what we know.

Scum killed Kohai. Either Helz is lying about protecting him or scum used some role to pierce the protection Helz provided.

Scum Vanillaized me. If Rex is right that I visited Shining, then they either were trying to Vanillaize Shining or me, and they used some kind of redirection role on me simultaneous to that, which suggests they were trying to Vanillaize Shining. If I visited Luna as planned, they either Vanillaized Luna or me and either Rex is lying or some fuckery happened with his role.

To be fair it would be a pretty silly lie for me to make super early in the day. Any single person who visited Kohai can verify they got feedback of their actions failing. That is quite verifiable.

So it's like an Asceticizer that comes with protection? What would pierce that?

Once we get some questions answered by Pie, we can address some of the uncertainties involved in what happened. It'll probably still be a mess, but at the very least, we should be able to disentangle some of it.

Just some thoughts on how the NP could have played out given what we know.

Scum killed Kohai. Either Helz is lying about protecting him or scum used some role to pierce the protection Helz provided.

Scum Vanillaized me. If Rex is right that I visited Shining, then they either were trying to Vanillaize Shining or me, and they used some kind of redirection role on me simultaneous to that, which suggests they were trying to Vanillaize Shining. If I visited Luna as planned, they either Vanillaized Luna or me and either Rex is lying or some fuckery happened with his role.

My experience with the Vanillaizer role is that it doesn't function as an RB for the night it's used. It effectively just turns you Vanilla for all future nights.