whiteflame

Fair enough but we aren’t switching targets and are running out of time. You two are both on towns Poe. My point is softing doesn’t do much as who we pick is going to have to claim their role anyway

I get that. I'd prefer that only one of us has to claim, but as I said, if there is no other choice, I'll full claim and make this decision easy.

I disagree that softclaiming is useless when we literally know nothing about Awesome’s role, and we don’t know how the anti-claim mechanic works this game, so I think we should be as minimalist as possible when it comes to getting claims, especially this early.

If the choice of lynch is just Awesome or me and the only way we have to determine which gets it is to full claim, then I’ll do it and we can get this over with. I’m just not convinced we’re there yet.

I’m pretty sure awesome is l2 4/6. So if we are going that way. As is wf. Kinda split so we should have claims and decide imo

I’m really torn on having us both claim to sort this out. We already have two full claims on the table in a game where we know there’s an anti-claim mechanic. Maybe you’re willing to risk that because you’re apparently bulletproof, but anyone else is likely to be fucked over by claiming.

That being said, we do have to sort this out. Splitting the vote is also a dangerous proposition in a game with a mandatory lynch. I’d at least like some kind of softclaim from Awesome, as I’ve already limited my claim substantially. We can sort things out from there.

Meant to tag you on that one.

We're running short on time and, unfortunately, I'm short on sleep. For people who want my claim, I'll point back to post #384 where I said my role is alignment-specific. If you still want it, I'll give it just so we can move on, but it's a town-only role.

As for my vote, I had Awesome under my null reads and I can't say he's done anything to shift into my town pile. I'll help raise the pressure:

VTL Awesome

You know, more power to you, some strange quirks of history (and how its remembered) in both cases. Two particular favorites of mine to think about as well.

There is an anti-claim mechanic in play. Softclaims will likely be fine, but unless you have a clearly SOP claim, absolutely do not claim unprompted. We can work through how and who to pressure for claims as the DP goes on, but please do not gift scum extra roles to use during the NP.

There appears to be some mechanic in the game that can affect the day chat. Not clear if that just means for one player (e.g. a Silencer) or some broader mechanic, but if something interrupts the chat for this DP or any future ones, Kohai made it clear that such a mechanic exists.

I want to know how he ties these two points together. I see anti claim, I don't see anything about affecting day chat and it's an odd line to draw from anti claim. This comes off as TMI.

These points don't tie together. They're separate elements in the OP. As for the day chat, please read point #5 under game mechanics:

5. "All factions have day chat. However, there are mechanics that could disable day chat.

It's not TMI for me to go through the OP with a fine-toothed comb and come up with a few separate points that were mentioned there.

this is weird way to frame the possibility of a town lock not being a town lock. Granted it's not a real town lock. It also implies lunatic was lying, and david still cofirmed it. Just a strange statement.

I've now said several times that I believe that Luna was basically town confirmed. The only reason why he might not be is if Kohai literally went in with him on the subterfuge, which I don't believe he would. But yes, I'm going to kick the tires on my thoughts as I'm working through them.

WF bothers me. Most of what he is doing is fluff and he's not really scum hunting. He's town reading and fluffing. This has always bothered me in the past about him and I don't think I have ever missed him as scum. It is true he does this as town as well, but there is something about this game that hits me wrong. It's like hes actively posting but not really giving reads or looking for scum. It's either invalidating other reads, or offering town reads only.

You may have called me as scum before, but you're hardly perfect on this front, particularly when it comes to sussing me when I'm town. That being said, I'd rather not hold up the DP by requiring more more pressure and eventually pushing this to a full claim when we know anti-claim's in play, so I'll at least soft this much: my role is alignment-specific.

iLikePie - I can't say I've seen much that sticks out about him behaviorally. He's chiefly sussing newer players to the site and those who haven't been as active, which seems like low-hanging fruit, but given that it's DP1, that doesn't raise red flags for me. It is a bit odd how he's townreading me over summarizing the key points from the OP, even if some of those could be overlooked. His softclaim that he's something affiliation confirmable gives me a little more reason to buy into his being town, so for now at least, he's a town lean.

Thoth - I haven't much liked him behaviorally this game, but that response from Kohai to discussion of his PM definitely looks like it's granting him some mod confirmation. It's not as strong as Luna's, especially given how much Mikal's leaning on a PM he's received from Kohai to see this as town confirmation, but it's something. Town lean.

Lunatic - It's not impossible that Luna would somehow engineer the situation to make himself look town confirmed via Discord, but I don't think Kohai would actively facilitate that. Luna's the closest to town confirmed of any player in this game.

awesome5000 - New player to the site, still trying to get what insights I can on him. A couple of oddities among his posts, including a statement about there being "a mason or a hood" (I don't know what the latter is) well before Max claimed Neighborizer. He's mentioned Xenon's Law, something else I don't know anything about (seriously, can someone tell me what that is?), and I think he's claimed a role that could exist in either alignment. He did put himself on the chopping block a bit by saying that the discussions of wincon might mean he goes down first, but he accepts that. Might slightly indicate town, but it's not enough to shift him out of null for me.

Airmax1227 - The Neighborizer claim gives him good towncred and I believe that Mr. Rogers would be in this game. It's possible he's a scum Mason and just passing it off as a townie version of the role, but I townread his decision to full claim (despite my being against it), mainly because it seems to have come from a place of not being caught up in the DP. Town lean.

Rex - There's not a lot to discuss here beyond how he's challenged other peoples' reads, which does look real. He's right that I'd point to specifics from the OP regardless of alignment. I don't see much in the way of reads, though, so he's null to me.

Vader - Not a lot to get into with Vader's posts so far, which have mostly just been short insights sans reads (aside from Pie who he's reading as town due to being aggressive) with some questioning of the mod confirmations. He came out with a POE list, which looks a lot like most lists at this point, but also lists Pie despite him saying he thinks he's town. It's also unclear why he's excluding certain players. Maybe he'll provide more insight into the why of his reads, but absent that, he is null to me.

Mikal - Pointing out town confirmations makes Mikal look pretty townie. It's not impossible that he's using one of those "confirmations" as a basis for getting his partner townread and using it to make himself look townie, and a lot still rubs me the wrong way about his claim - I still don't fully understand why he felt the need to full claim or why his Caroler works in a clearly distinct way - but for the time being, he's a slight town lean.

unsaid - Largely find he's contributing well to the DP and challenging a lot of reads, even if that leads him to sus me. Our styles may be different, but he comes off as one of the more behaviorally town players in just how much and where he's engaging. I don't get the Stalingrad reference, and I don't know much about MU so the name "Moth" doesn't tell me anything. It's more of a gutread than the rest on this list, but I'd still say he's a slight townlean.

Unvote

I'll come back to this when I have more time, but I noticed that Mikal got confirmed Popular, so I'll remove the vote.

That anti-claim mechanic is not what I would think of as extremely nasty. I'm thinking more like having your ability permanently removed or your results being tampered with without informing you. Worst-case scenario would be death, but I very much doubt Kohai would go that far.

I mean, that's a bit of mod psych. We don't know what flavor of anti-claim is being used here. We should assume it's bad and that people who have claimed so far are either personally in danger as a result or that their night actions may in some way be affected. Given that those actions are Caroler and Neighborizer, I don't know what effect that could be, but it's possible that they just won't be able to use their role, which would make Mikal's decision to straight claim a problem.

So... I guess we didn't get confirmation of the number of votes yet, still waiting on that.

just an FYI on this for further thought, but post 76 includes a vote count on Mikal "1/6"... do "popular" vote counts typically increase the number in the tabulation? "1/7" for example, I think I may have seen that before but I might be mistaken... We may already know the answer to this test

I've never seen mods confirm a Popular player like that. They keep the vote count identical to the others and simply have the player survive reaching the point where they should be lynched (in this case, 6/6) when they reach that vote count. David should post that once we've reached it, and that will serve as confirmation.

Please check vote count before we get to 6. This is the only way I can did. So let’s not blunder.

Now now, who would take advantage of an opportunity like that?

Like Mikal has claimed a bulletproof popular caroler? Has the popular been tested?

We haven't gotten around to testing it, though I think we should at some point. In fact:

VTL Mikal

It is odd that we haven't done this yet. Let's test that Popular role.

Also, the same issue applies that I don't understand this mechanic. I haven't encountered it ever. What type of mechanic could exist that makes it problematic for me to claim? Even more so, what could the possible issue be with character claiming?

I'm noticing no one's given you a straight answer to these questions. The answer is, it depends on the nature of the anti-claim mechanic. The most recent example (and I think the one most of us are considering when it comes to this game) came from the Deltarune game run by Casey.

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/endgames/posts/r/deltarune-mafia-endgame

This is how the mechanic was described in the endgame:

Anticlaim - Once per night, you may name any player and a role. If the named player has the named role, they will be unable to be protected from the NK by any protective roles. This may NOT be used on a player on whom you have successfully used Role Cop, unless that player has publicly claimed their role. If using Anticlaim on a player you have Role Copped, you must cite the post where they claimed their role. You will be told if your Anticlaim attempt was successful or not. Once you have used Anticlaim on a player successfully, you may not use it on that player again.

So the concern is that by revealing both your character and role, you've made yourself vulnerable to similar anti-claim mechanics. It's not so much that claiming either your role or character individually might be a problem, it's that claiming both opens you up to scum using this against you, and I wouldn't be surprised if the mechanic is similar in this game.

Well, at least you're here. I'll leave you to catch up tomorrow.

Unvote

After reading about why he's townreading Thoth, I have a better grasp on why Mikal thinks he's town confirmed, and I have little reason to doubt Mikal after he's used mod confirmations that might have otherwise slipped away unnoticed to town confirm both Luna and Thoth (particularly for the latter since it's based in part on a PM). I don't love the claim, in part because that's not how Caroler worked when I got it (it worked only if my target didn't commit an active night action, whereas Mikal's functions more like a Dreamer, which is interrupted if he's visited) and in part because it's just strange to out that claim unprompted in a game with anti-claim when Mikal was largely townread (I get that it looks a bit off, but it's hardly SOP), but I also have little reason to doubt his alignment at this point unless he's really going out on a limb.

I can't dismiss any possibility of his being scum since he could be using one of these confirmations to make himself look good and then "confirm" his partner via PM, but at minimum, there's good reason to buy that Luna is town based on what we know and at least some reason to townread both Mikal and Thoth. So, unless circumstances change dramatically, they're in my town pool.

I'll need to dig into the behavior of others so far this DP, and I'd really love to see some action from Max and REF before we get much further, but this is where I'm starting.

Fair enough.

But not near as werid as saying it’s AI to put a vote there for pressure when it’s not reasonable to hammer, especially after last game.

See, I don’t understand this. I said it was an odd choice coming rom Thoth, and yes, that it rubs me the wrong way as a result. If I thought it was definitively AI, my vote would be on Thoth. But I’m also not just going to sit back and refuse to point out a post that looks like an outlier unless there’s some genuine pressure on Thoth. For anyone who’s keeping score, that’s the kind of thing I’m much more likely to do as scum.

WF- I dislike the push against Thoth. It doesn’t seem genuine or good reasons. He dislike putting pressure on someone (only 3 votes) because I took advantage of that last game. We’d need 3 people to all hammer at once to exploit this. RV is a pretty standard part of the game and that is a pretty lose reason to scum read someone

I don't get how sussing Thoth for his behavior is a "push," but if you're sussing me for calling out one post, then... fine I guess. I don't think he's risking another "accidental" hammer, but I do think it's odd behavior for him coming off of last game, and I think it's a pretty pointless vote when two other votes are already on him. I don't know why you have Thoth so solidly in your town pile, but I guess if your standard is that anyone who is sussing Thoth is sus, I at least somewhat get why you're sussing me.

Insert a comment about Xenon’s Law

I have no idea what this is.

I have a problem with Thoth's decision to pile onto Max despite him already having 2 votes and still being inactive. REF, by contrast, has had little attention on him and no votes.

Where are you at, REF? I recognize that we're still relatively early in the DP, but I'm going to need some signs of life.

VTL REF

Pie

max

and wf

kinda whi I want to look at atm

prob one scum there

Is this POE? I don't get where this list is coming from.

Kinda mod pysch but I don’t think David randomized it

so have a feeling a scum would be between myself, pie, Luna, max and wf

luna is town locked

so pie max and wf are the next on the list

mix that in with some weirr behavior pings from pie and wf also reading me as off currently

Not "kinda", this is pure modpsych, and it's a little weird when the newer players in this game both have extensive experience. I also don't get what you mean by "reading me as off currently", but I'll chalk that up to a gutread of some kind since you haven't elaborated. I don't think I've done anything worth townreading me for, despite Pie's view, so being in POE is a given at this point.

VTL Airmax

Eh, screw it. If there's pressure, I might as well add some, and with three votes remaining, it ain't gonna be my fault if someone misfires.

I'm unclear what the mindset is for this post. I get that three votes suddenly appearing on Max would be sus af, but I'm also unclear on why you're amping up pressure on a so far absent player. Pie made a good point about how this is particularly odd coming off of last game where Mikal took advantage of an opportunity to make it look like an accidental lynch, so I'm not sure why you'd contribute to that potentially happening again.

Agreed. Now I'm really heading off.

All good. Glad to have you in the game regardless.

Anyway, I got some absolutely awful sleep last night and I’m going to call it early. Sorry if I’m boring you.

implies I desire to seek some reason to scumread you.

I think you’re fishing for reasons, yes.

That would be very scum indicative if I was just looking for any reason at all to scumread you right?

Not necessarily. I’ve seen plenty of people kick the tires as it were by finding minor reasons to sus various players and seeing how they respond. It doesn’t mean I’m scumreading you in return for seeing some annoyance in a post where I didn’t convey it.

I think you looked actually annoyed at possible mod confirmed details. It just looks like a reactive reply to something I genuinely dont even know what happened there or why.

I don't know how or where I conveyed annoyance over that revelation, but if you want to sus me over non-existent frustration, be my guest.