whiteflame

I’ll put all my cards on the table:

If those flips don’t give it away already, I’m Rumi, and I’m the Cop. I was RB’d NP1, used my role on Luna NP2. He’s innocent, which leaves Pie as scum.

I recognize that Luna may not believe this, in part because I’m now clarifying that I was indeed the RB target NP1 and because of our argument last DP. I had every reason to keep the info on being RB’d to myself, and I’ll fully admit I got frustrated and jumped to some poor conclusions, it’s hardly a first for me. That was my error.

With regard to why you should believe this, I’ll note two things:

One, there is no other investigative role in play. Pie may attempt to claim one, but he’ll have to find some way Bobby connects to it and I can’t fathom one. In my case, the justification is that I seek the truth about demons and their plans to understand them and myself, which makes sense as Rumi spends the movie discovering and learning to embrace her half-demon heritage.

Two, both Huntr/x members specifically mention Rumi as a character in this game. Unless you believe that scum received a fake claim thats existence was directly validated by two other characters in this game, I can’t see a world in which Rumi is just a fake claim this game.

Beyond all this, look at who was killed: Thoth, a player who sussed Pie most of all last DP. As scum, I’d have every reason to leave him alive since he would have gone after either of you before going after me, given that my character’s name is in his PM and he suggested as much a couple of times. I know it’s WIFOM, but killing Thoth would have been the worst possible decision I could make.

I’ll give Pie time to post before posting a vote. For Luna to be scum, I would have to believe that he is the Silencer/Godfather, and I have a hard time believing that.

Just need your vote now. I've officially spent too much time on this, getting back to work.

Alright, let's do it.

VTL Vader

Alright, so we doing this? If you vote Vader, I will too.

I'm not dismissing this, but again, we need all three of us onboard to lynch Vader. There is 0 chance Vader's vote is on himself. If Thoth doesn't line up behind it, the only options are the players who could have Vader's vote, which means you, me or Luna. I'll vote Vader if he agrees to do it.

1) If we lynch Luna and it’s a mislynch and Vader doesn’t die tonight, we have very little to go off of in LYLO

I don't get this, is the idea that we need behavioral information from DP2 in order to be successful in a potential DP3? That's a pretty strange argument from where I'm sitting, especially since it's entirely possible that Vader did something during the night NP1 and might again NP2. That would be something to go off of, something Luna couldn't provide if he's telling the truth.

2) He is presumably 1/3 main girls who I think is a strong fake claim for scum. I just don’t buy that scum would get Celine & Vanilla or Bobby & my role as a fake claim

We've discussed this several times already. I agree that Celine - Vanilla isn't a fake claim I'd expect Mharman to give. I believe Mharman would give Celine with some role and that he might just toss it out and claim Vanilla. Thanks for confirming that you're Bobby, but I don't have knowledge of your role so I can't say whether or not it makes sense as a fake claim beyond just being a very likely character to appear in this game. I'll admit, I'm taking a bit of a leap with suggesting that Luna fake claimed Vanilla, but I can't say that it's obvious at all yet that one of the three leads is the fake claim.

3) He could’ve self silenced cause he messes up on talking and slips all the time.

This is the best of the three arguments because it also comports with the decision to use the Silencer on him at all. Unless someone had really good reason to believe he was a member of Huntr/x (I don't see one beyond him being female), the reason for Silencing him doesn't make a whole lot of sense since he'd be likely to be inactive as town compared to everyone else left in this DP and make more mistakes as scum, as you say.

Pick Luna or Vader. We need a lynch today period. I would prefer Vader

Choosing Vader would effectively all be based on answering "yes" to the question of "did he Silence himself?" I get why you're down to these two since any vote among the three of us can only be successful if Vader's on that vote, but he would not be my choice. If both of you agree to go for Vader, I'll tow the line.

I a m s u s o f P i e m a i n l y b e c a u s e I t h i n k y o u a r e t o w n a n d h e i s o p p o s e d t o y o u , a n d a l s o b e c a u s e h e i s n e e d l e s s l y s u s o f m e.

Being opposed to me doesn't make him scum. He hasn't really been engaging with much of what I've been saying about Luna, but that largely seems to be borne out of focusing on you, and much as I think a lot of your behavior is NAI, it's not like there's nothing there to base his views on.

I think there is a reasonable chance that Vader did vote for Pie.

I think the probability is low, but certainly not non-existent. Hell, Vader could be on me right now. The only person we have some reason to believe he didn't vote for is you. I could vote with you and see what that does, but a) I don't see much reason to lynch Pie and b) it might still leave us stuck.

There is more I could say, but I'm going with my gut.

Two things.

One, I’m going to need more than this to switch my vote. Pie hasn’t come off as scummy to me, so I need something spelled out.

Two, this doesn’t really solve our problem. Pie’s not voting himself, so unless Vader voted for Pie, he’s not getting lynched even if I switch my vote.

I'll be back and forth, I'm handling an experiment and I'll take breaks where I can.

Unvote

Might as well remove that while we're at it.

I definitely think we need to lynch today. Annoyed that Thoth isn’t here

That makes two of us, on both fronts. Without him and without a change to Luna's vote, we're stuck either trying to find Vader's vote or sitting on our hands.

Open to ideas at this point.

So either Thoth is a popular or Vader didn’t vote for him. Which brings up the question, who did he vote for?

My guess is Luna, though he could have cast his vote on anyone. Doesn't seem like Luna's coming back to change his vote over, either, so... yeah, this is fun.

Might as well just end this DP already. Hopefully Vader voted Thoth.

VTL Thoth

just thought of something so to respond to this again; you really think the mod would give vanilla as a fake claim? That’s like the worst fake claim ever, anyone can come up with vanilla lol. Just saying

No, but I think someone might just decide not to use the role claim and go with Vanilla. It's not the most obvious choice, but it would hardly be a first.

keeping options open so that you have more mislynch potential, is what this feels like. Not really a good point in favor of you being town. Would make more sense if you picked a lane and stayed in it, now you willing to lynch Thoth when you heavily questioned and doubted pies reasoning for it earlier.

Whatever man. Get some sleep already, this is getting ridiculous. Also, take a look back: I've acknowledged Pie's reasoning has merit and even said I agree with him on several points, even saying he's in my POE this DP after saying he wasn't last DP and repeatedly saying that he'd be my lynch choice absent you. If you want to treat that as me just giving myself an offramp to a different mislynch, fine, but it'd be really nice if you weren't repeatedly caricaturing my arguments.

Yeah your tunneling, but wanting to save face about it and appear open minded, yet you also don't want to lynch your top scum read because your afraid you won't get support for it. Makes sense.

Considering I've stated over and over again that I have my issues with Thoth as well and that I've been willing to consider his lynch, and considering that I've made the arguments, received little in the way of responses, and we have now just over 2 hours left to make any lynch happen, yeah, I'll go for the option that has at least some chance of happening.

There's no way you are town here man.

Feel free to prove it to yourself. If you believe I'm scum so solidly, convince everyone else and let's do this.

Dude, I'm tired and I'm not engaging with this anymore. If you don't like how I'm approaching strategy, fine, whatever. We can revisit this in the endgame when you're not exhausted and pushing off sleep. The only thing I'll respond to is this:

If my claim means nothing then WHY the FUCK did you ask for it?

Because I wanted to know if your claim would move the needle for me in a positive direction and because I thought it might. I wasn't sure what your claim was, but I figured it wasn't Vanilla. You giving that claim didn't change my reads because that claim didn't change anything about my perception of you.

Meant to tag you on this.

At this point, I'm willing to just let whatever happens happen. If you say you can validate Luna's claim, I'll accept it and vote for Thoth.

Why can’t there be more than one vanilla in the game?

I didn't say there can't. I said Celine wasn't the obvious choice for a Vanilla character based on what I know of her.

Thoth’s claim screams fake claim to me. He has been asking me the entire DP whether I thought he had soft claimed, and what was his first question to me? Insubordination. So that means he soft claimed his character and role basically. Cause there is no way in hell that Voodoo Lady story makes sense imo.

I've already agreed that he's made some odd choices and said that his claim could be fake, so yes.

I buy Luna’s claim, and I’ll talk about why tomorrow cause it partially has to do with me as well. Thoth as Soldier doesn’t make sense to me at all. Just look at balance. Game could’ve ended DP1, or DP2. Soldier just seems like overkill for town. Granted we don’t know exactly what scum has, but the anomalies are just too much.

I'm just tired man. I get the distinct impression that we're making the wrong choice, but I'll vote to lynch Thoth anyway because I'm just done arguing this. I'll get to it when I'm on break.

It was the unvote where you said you were ONLY unvoting me because you wanted to prevent a quick hammer and then waffling about picking a lane on me because you doubt you could get the support for it. You are being aggressive, but don't want to use your aggression to lead a proper lynch? Literally makes no sense. You are throwing mud to see what will stick and see who takes the bait. That way in the off chance someone like thoth or pie does wagon a read on me last minute you can get a quick easy lynch off. But your argument for sussing me is pretty inherently bad in the first place, especially considering I have soft claimed my role early and character and role claimed immediately when asked. I made a thread on DDO shortly before it closed detailing how vanilla was the best role in the game because you can play however you want without risk of being being killed, and dying is a direct laugh at mafia. Also you can use the role to bait the night kill, or just scum hunt and scum have no incentive to kill you. Its my favorite role and my best games tend to be when I am vanilla, for example, terraria mafia.

I made my point to Pie a good while back. He stayed focused on Thoth. I'm not expecting to convince him at this point, but I'm continuing to make my case anyway. If you want to call that throwing mud to see what sticks... whatever man. I'm just tired of this argument. Softclaiming your role early doesn't really change anything for me, either, since you would have received the full fake claim as scum and made this call early.

As for taking the vote off of you, I play it safe regardless of where I expect people to place their votes. I didn't know for sure, and it remains a possibility that Vader placed a vote on you, so I didn't want to set you at L-1 before we had your claim or any discussion thereof. Literally just me being careful.

in 114 you said I have been sussing players for shoddy reasoning, which isn't true. I said I would be suspicious of anyone who claimed to be roleblocked and a couple people even agreed with me about that, and I had provided reasoning for that stance. That said I didn't really throw shade at tons of people other than mentioning a gun to your head scum read on a thoth behavior point. You trying to spin this as me having reads bouncing all over the place is wild.

I didn't say you have reads bouncing all over the place. I said that I don't like much of the reasoning you've used for sussing other players throughout this game. You've dropped some of those points, but they're hard for me to ignore.

Secondly you've had your mind made up about me since you first placed your vote on me and keep finding reasons to back justify a lynch on me. It shows that you were never interested in town reading me, which as town I think you would have at least acknowledged some points to where I could be town. I know you, you are usually very reasonable as town and weigh both sides. I have reasons to believe every person here has a town case for them. You are only looking at lynch potential which shows that you aren't trying to figure out a town pool. Specifically with me, no matter how compliant I have been (Literally could have lied or resisted claiming and justified the sh1t out of it) you wont retract a scum read on me or even consider me being town. This is not resembling your town behavior in the slightest. The fact I am consistently noting differences in behavior from you makes me feel like you have to be scum at this point. If you think I am scum you should be lynching me. Period. This waffling about not lynching me because you doubt you could get support for it demonstrates that you are willing to no lynch. If I am scum you should want to lynch me and not waste time elsewhere.

We have just over 3 hours left in the DP. Do you think my MO at this point should be just sitting here waffling? Because that's what it sounds like.

The entire reason I went back and looked through your posts to write up #114 was that I wanted to check to see if my read made sense looking at it for a second and third time. Doing so supported the reasons I had for sussing you before. I don't know why that's a surprise or why that's a point against me. This is when we should be solidifying reads and making choices.

As for a town pool, frankly, I don't have one. Pie's null to me. His scumhunting against Thoth looks pretty good, but I've seen him behave this way as scum and town before so my read on him may shift depending on how Thoth flips. Vader can't say anything and didn't say much last DP, so he's null to me too. That leaves you and Thoth, both of whom I have points against. Could you be town? Sure. Is there anything that you've done that specifically stands out to me as townie? Not much. These responses have been the towniest part of your play yet, and they're making me question my read a bit.

As for lynching you, I've recognized now several times that that probably isn't happening. I don't think it's likely that Vader voted for you, I don't think Pie will either, and I can see reasons to lynch either you or Thoth. If/when it comes down to it, I'll support the option that ends with a lynch over one that ends with a deadlock. If you think that's off behavior for me, so be it.

VTL whiteflame. Probably isnt going to happen, but I dont see town whiteflame scum reading me when I have been perfectly compliant and actually haven't done anything scummy. This aggression feels pointed and oppertunistic, not whiteflames usual style. I don't think he gets an excuse for a behavioral change this game. This seems off. I have to log soon to sleep.

Lol, alright then. Nothing's changed about my behavior since your last post where you felt extremely mixed about me, the only difference is that you feel slighted that I'm still sussing you after you gave up your role claim.

I was literally just given a description of my character (rumi's adoptive mother) and told I was vanilla. There was no link or justification provided. And its not a bad faith reading, you literally said it was odd, after having previously voted me (only stating you unvoted me to prevent a quick hammer) so despite being perfectly compliant you are still scum reading me, and its a bit non sense. I am clearly your intended target this day phase. I feel like you are going to try some sh1t soon with 7 hours left knowing I will be asleep to result in my quick lynch. I am retracting my gut read on your actions being town motivated at this point.

I said it was odd, explained my reasoning referencing the connection to being Vanilla, and then you left all that out and instead claimed that my issue was with your character claim, which it has never been. So yes, I'd call that a bad faith reading. And I've been very specific regarding the reasons I'm sussing you behaviorally already (see post #114) as well as explaining why Celine being Vanilla doesn't sit well with me. Your compliance is appreciated, but no, it doesn't make you more likely to be town just because you did as requested. If you want to believe I'm going to try something with roughly 4 hours left in the DP and my vote on absolutely no one, that's your choice. I'm almost certainly going to be overruled by Pie and Thoth is probably going to end up being the lynch. And if all this changes your gut read on me, I honestly don't care.

Thats wild considering you mentioned my character being likely in this game like 10 times over the last two day phases, and even guessed that I was this character multiple times. Now its odd lol

Now this is just a bad faith reading of what I said. I said previously that your claiming Celine as a character makes sense. I still hold to that. You conveniently quoted only two sentences of what I said above that leave out what I viewed as the oddity: the attached role claim. If you have some justification that makes sense of why she's Vanilla, be my guest and provide it.

Alright, so this is what we're working with:

1. Lunatic: Celine - Vanilla
2. Whiteflame - Rumi/Zoey
3. Vader - Presumably Rumi/Zoey
4. Pie - Male (likely Bobby)
5. Thoth - Mira - Soldier

To me, the Celine claim comes off as odd. She's a former member of the group previous to Huntr/x and her main focus in the plot is on keeping Rumi's identity as a half demon secret. She doesn't get up to much in the run of the movie, but her role is pretty crucial since Rumi's identity is a major focus of the film. I can see her being Vanilla, at least compared with the other claims we have on the table (would've pegged Bobby as the obvious Vanilla), but I have more trouble buying this than I do the Soldier claim from Thoth.

That being said, we have to make a choice. I'd like Pie to chime in on both claims and give his thoughts. If Thoth is telling the truth, scum have incentive to kill him NP2, but they also are likely to bank on him being lynched next DP and leave him alive. I want to read Thoth's lack of a clear role name (Luna had to volunteer that) as townie, but he could just have made the active decision to not state it in order to look townie. Both players have elements of what they've said that have rubbed me the wrong way. If I had to pick, I'd still say Luna would be my choice of lynch, but this isn't just my choice and that likely isn't happening unless Vader voted Luna already since I don't think Pie's changing his mind here.

I'll check in a little later and we can discuss this before the DP ends.

Also, looking for a claim from you before the DP's out.

sounds like soldier

Alright. Guess that fits decently well with the tough look she puts on. Background is mainly that she's the black sheep of her family and rebellious. Not like my role is super well justified, so I can at least see the shape of it.

I'm Mira. My role is that town wins if I and one scum are the only players alive.

I figured as much regarding your character. Not familiar with that role - any justification? I'll check back on before I knock off for the night.