I already said I do not have a result.
I already said I do not have a result.
The more I keep thinking about this push for my role, the more I'm leaning towards you being town. The issue is that I wouldn't just be revealing my role to you, so how I read you isn't the only thing on my mind.
So, while I'm not going to claim yet, I'll at least give two tidbits about what I did.
I did visit someone, and if you actually knew who I visited (I don't believe you do), you almost certainly would not be asking for this information.
Don't get that, either.
Maybe, but considering that claims come at a premium this game, that doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, particularly since he already has three claims he wants.
I’ll bite.
VTL Whiteflame
I am sincerely at a loss regarding this vote. You should be more confident than anyone here that you have the name of at least one scum on that list of three. Why is my claim your priority?
What is your result ?
I don't have a result. When did I imply a result?
1) I don’t trust a dreamer outright. It’s something to consider
Fine. From an external perspective, I'm not seeing a reason to consider what you've found more strongly than the results RT received.
2) I didn’t say it implicates you. I said I had something on you and want your role and not your character.
If it doesn't implicate me (I'm not sure what the difference is between implicating and having something on me, but I'll take your word that there's a difference), then why is my role your priority? If there wasn't an anti-claim mechanic to concern ourselves with, I might understand this better, but a) we don't know how that mechanic works so even just role claims could be a problem, and b) we should still be pretty conservative with how many claims we get.
If you've got info, spill it and I'll claim too.
I’ve never heard of a scum role that delivers three names to a town player via the mod (the closest I can think of is a Messenger, which would just deliver a message), but fine, let’s assume shenanigans for a moment. Explain to me why you’re so inherently trusting of Mikal here.
If enough people want my claim, I'll give it, but I'd like to understand your perspective better here. You clearly got some info that you believe implicates me. Fine. We've got a list of three players, yourself included, that RT received and that we know contains one scum player. In a game where we know anti-claim mechanics are likely in play and therefore getting a lot of claims all at once is bound to empower scum, when we have alignment info on a subset of other players, why should anyone else prioritize my claim over yours, Thoth's and Shining's?
It depends on how casey divvies dreamer results too. Technically both scum can be on a dreamer result, but I feel like most mods dont really do that for mod psyche reasons. Like if we were to systematically start lynching through your results, and hit both scum, mafia would be pretty pissed. So I feel like the mod would leave one outside, so if your results are to be believed, then its one of the three on your results, plus ultra. Obviously a lot of that is mod psyche with early game POE, but that's where I am at.
Fair take. I don't think we should assume both scum are among that trio, chalk that up to both the odds being low and Casey likely not wanting to put scum in that situation, which is entirely understandable. I'm heading to bed, but I'll put some thoughts into reads tomorrow and hopefully by then we'll have heard from Thoth (and more from Mikal) as well.
Wait a sec. You criticized in the first DP that RT claimed and now you're asking for more claims when we know that there might be an anti claim mechanic.
It is unusual, though if I'm reading Mikal's first post right, he's implying some role-related reason for sussing me. Possible he's just interpreting something Casey said to him or something I said in this DP or the previous one, but if it's any of those, he has even less reason to keep them secret.
Granted I'm a little sus of everyone cause I'm new so maybe I'm just being too jumpy. But like... Why not you claim first then? Just partially?
If it is role related, I understand wanting to keep it secret, though his appearance on RT's results makes it pretty likely he'll have to claim regardless unless he has good reason not to buy them, in which case he should be sussing RT.
That said this could be WF deflecting too IDK (it's hard to sus him out cause he acts trustworthy and I have my money on him doing this basically every game).
Yeah, that's fair. I wouldn't say I'm exactly the same every game (wish I was that good), but this isn't too far from how I act in any given game, whether as scum or town. Others can pick up on more subtle cues that may be more telling.
To be clear, Mikal I think was sus of RT
I agree that he was drawing some attention to RT, but I'm not sure if he's sussing him right now.
So the first thing you do after you join the discussion in this DP is seek my claim? That's a little weird given what we've heard from RT. Any thoughts about your name being among that trio he received?
I have nothing about being fragile; however given that I'm proven to be popular my popular mechanic may have been disabled.
That would be a different kind of anti-claim, but it's possible. I'd be surprised if you weren't informed about it, though we don't need to re-test your Popular claim regardless.
Well, is that the only anti claim they use? Its a little dangerous to assume its it different. Otherwise it seems to leave the town meta of mass claiming your character unpunished.
I don't think we should assume it's exactly the same, I'm just pointing to the only anti-claim mechanic we've seen Casey implement as a point of reference. I think seeking partial claims should be a starting point since it bears a lower risk of making such mechanics usable by scum, and we can work up from there as needed.
How did Casey implement anti claims in their past games?
I'm checking back now. Here's what Casey said in The Russian Mafia endgame:
On that basis, yes, I think avoiding full claims up front is best practice, since we avoid similar mechanics being able to be used to their fullest. While we're at it, everyone make sure to check and see if you received anything like "Fragile" in your message from Casey at the start of this DP. Given the lack of full claims, I doubt it, but best to check.
All good, I like that you’re thinking about this stuff and it helps orient me a bit since I don’t know much about the games.
Though the draw back is the anti claim mechanism. But I want to get something from Thoth, Mikal, and Shinning at the very least
Yeah, I think partial claims from all three make sense to start.
Also if we're going off theme - Caroler could mean Noelle Holiday or Rudy since their personalities are Christmas inspired.
Sorry I'm infodumping just thinking out loud
Not bad to speculate since we don’t know who it is, but in case they do partially claim, we want to avoid giving scum too much insight into what that means.
I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on character claims as much as roll claims.
I wouldn’t emphasize role splits right now, though getting full claims increase the odds of CCs, so there’s value in getting all of them.
As for getting claims this DP, it is worth getting yours, though I don’t think your my preference right now. Wylted was largely just absent DP1 and given that that appears to be due to a lack of availability or interest since you were subbed in, I view it as NAI. I’d like to get Mikal and Thoth in here and discuss a claim order.
Wait so Queen was the main antagonist of Ch 2 and isn't Mafia. So... Which characters are the Mafia?
Honestly haven’t been thinking about the theme split much, but we’ll have to consider what that could mean. It’s clearly not just heroes vs. villains.
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Caroler
Did some research and found this role, which correlates with what you received. Seems to match with your hearing music as well.
I townread RT and, at least if Shining is right, this role functions like the Dreamer, so at least this gives us some meaningful direction for the DP. As for what to do with it, we’ll have to be careful how many we pursue for a claim, even just among those three due to the potential anti-claim mechanic.
Also, just noticed that Pie died and that he was the Follower. That’s painful to lose.
However, I was targeted with a night action and heard music about shining, mikal, and thoth (whatever that means).
That sounds like a Dreamer result, but we already confirmed you are Popular. I haven’t heard of a role that makes others hear results like this.
Well, guess we’ll just NL by default. That’s fine by me, though everyone’s on notice for next DP. With what will presumably be an odd number of players, a lynch is going to happen, so if you just aren’t responsive for days at a time (looking at you in particular, Wylted), expect that you’ll be a target for that lynch.
Good to know, next time I'm scum I'll just never post and people will apparently never lynch me as long as I also don't claim.
Decidedly not what I said nor implied.
We're not going to be able to rely on claims for all our analysis this game. We need something else, and that means flips and wagons to talk about next DP, or we'll just get into the same rut next DP. I say we lynch someone today. I'm fine with a Wylted lynch, as he's been very inactive and was pushing claims.
At this point, the only way this would happen (since Wylted's been MIA) is with a blind lynch, and as I've already said, I'm opposed to that. Don't think you're going to rally the support you'd need to get this lynch off before the DP ends, but I don't see value in blind lynching an inactive player.
Doesn't seem like we'll get anything out of the push regardless, given that Wylted's been absent for the past day and a half. I can at least appreciate that seeking a claim if we're going to VTNL anyway ends up giving scum a leg up, I just don't agree that we should be that ginger about seeking claims based entirely on the anti-claim mechanics that could be in play.
Unvote
VTNL
if we want to pressure someone, there should be a lunch. It’s pointless to get a claim then vtnl. It’s ammo for scum so we need to do one or the other
I think there's value in it if we're considering the lynch, but I get this perspective. I wouldn't even say I'm scumreading Wylted, though I would still like to see him post and get some kind of behavioral read on him. I'll keep my vote where it is, but VTNLing might be the best move here.
I've never seen anti-claim mechanics before. I've never seen pro-claim mechanics either, for what it's worth. Are those a thing on here?
I wouldn't call them the norm, but they have cropped up in some more recent games when we were on DART. Basic idea I've seen (and there could be others) is that scum get access to certain roles if town claims too much or town gets a negative utility/hidden role thrown in to mess them up. I'm not sure if it's one of those or something else, but it's implied by Casey's stipulation in the OP:
especially given the even number of players.
I had to think about that for a minute. Makes sense.
Hey, glad you get the numbers game. At some point, we're probably going to end up VTNLing given the numbers unless there's a Vigilante in play or some other mechanism that results in two NKs. The main benefit of VTNLing is that we don't risk losing an extra town member and therefore will hopefully get more results/insights in DP2 to build reads on. I can't say I've gotten the kind of behavioral insights this DP that I'd like beyond some light townreads, hence the push for another claim and considering this avenue.