whiteflame

I carried on your legacy inside of me.

Giving Earth 2 abilities based on OoT items and making him the OG Zelda was also kind of a dick move Mikal.

I get this, but as I pointed out, a lot of moves came from later games. Mine came from a later game than the one I was in, and Ragnar’s Rapid Spin move came from Gen 2. It wasn’t that much later, but still, not the same game.

Entirely fair, honestly. A lot of this rode on our private chats, which also were the only reason I bought the existence of four town JOATs and so many pseudo-CCs. This setup would absolutely not work in any context where these Mason chats did not exist, there’s just too much basis for sussing claims otherwise. At the same time, it meant behavioral reads changed dramatically, and I was placed in a nexus point where I had to decide whether scum were just manipulating me every which way or they were telling the truth. You have no idea how much I second guessed my behavioral reads, just so much.

/in

Really felt for you throughout this game, man. The Beloved Princess claim was always going to be sussed, just wish I’d trusted my gut on that one (basically was saying “hey, that’s a lot of JOATs and not a lot of claimed negative utility, so this would make sense…”) but went with my head and executed the lynch for bad reasons. Also, can entirely sympathize with how things went after you subbed back in. Just a bad way to be placed in, man.

I’ll say this much: I was never quite sure of Pie, but he played a really good game as scum. If I hadn’t been in a chat with Earth, it would probably have been a dead heat between them for the third scum.

Also, huge props to both Mharman and Ragnar on this one. Wasn’t easy getting to the point that I would accept there were so many JOATs, but being in a chat with both of you made that plausible enough that I was willing to go for it on some ballsy team play, which worked out even though we lost in the end. Will team with you guys any day.

I think he's at L-1. We have a little under 11 hours left in the DP if we want to discuss plausible scum teams. I know the game will continue unless scum somehow have two NKs, and I've given out as much information and perspective as I can at this point. I don't know who scum will target, but if I die during the NP, please consider everything I've said this DP.

Jesus Christ I can see why Supa wanted to replace out if that's the case. I genuinely feel bad for him, he hates being scum to begin with. Making him do it without a group chat is just cruel.

Yeah, I've been the Lone Wolf before, puts you in a rough position. Didn't help that he was unaware of my role before he claimed the Absorber role.

But it does make sense why his behavioral scumhunting felt real to me - there's no information asymmetry if he's a lone wolf. He could have stayed off the RT wagon because he thought he was scum and didn't want to lynch a teammate.

Very well could be, I wouldn't be surprised anyway.

I can't figure out what a lone wolf is. One site says a mafia member who will only win if they are the last surviving mafia member, which doesn't make sense in your scenario. Another says it's a TP with an NK like a serial killer, which would have resulted in the game ending at this point imo.

What do you mean by the term?

To my understanding, a Lone Wolf is scum that is not in the scum chat. I did ask for clarification and he literally said it's "a scum person not being involved in the main chat". They function like a Traitor, essentially a TP who only wins with Mafia.

Your behavior makes zero sense as TP or scum.

It makes a lot more sense if, say… hypothetically… he was in a Mason chat with someone trying to figure out the fake claim a player (rhymes with Nader) previously left him while being asked questions about it, and lacking the means to effectively respond, keeps saying that he’s trying to find out while posting an action that didn’t match the role this other player was told about.

And, again, completely hypothetically, he then tried to fix said fake claim by providing another fake claim and not so subtly hint at the existence of a separate scum player in the game.

And then, just to take this hypothetical a step further mind you, he went ahead and just stated outright to that other person in the Mason chat that he was the Lone Wolf in the hopes that that other person was secretly scum only to be told that he had just outed himself fully to a town player.

Again, all hypothetical. Definitely not based on any personal experience.

As for the why, I think I've already justified why I think Casey's scum. The main question is, who do I think is Casey's likely scum partner, and that's harder to determine. My attention on the two of you is mainly a result of POE. I don't buy either Ragnar or Rex as scum. I've explained the former a lot already, and the latter is mainly because he just knows too much about who visited him, all visits I can validate based on the information I have. If he somehow has that information as scum, props to him for somehow knowing all this, but I can't fathom having it outside of Rex's having a Tracking role. If he's somehow scum anyway, GG, well played.

That leaves Earth and Pie. Both of them have been Tracked for one NP by Rex, so there's at least some evidence that each of you didn't do anything for one NP. I've already given some pretty extensive reasoning for why I think Earth's claim is genuine, and most of what I've seen as responses are that the items don't really fit the claimed roles or came from future games, both of which have some validity, but they don't move the needle much. As for Pie's, we know he's Popular and the lack of movement NP1 supports that, but everything else is behavioral. His claim's believable, sure, but there are plenty of games that could fit Popular and it's been a little strange to me ever since he claimed it that Tetris doesn't have anything else to it. I don't really scumread him for being on both lynch wagons, especially since Ragnar was also on both of them, but I also can't dismiss it out of hand.

I just have a whole lot less to go off of for Pie, and much as I know that has a good deal to do with my being in a Mason chat with Earth and not Pie, it also means I had a lot of opportunities to note inconsistencies in Earth's responses to me and behaviors I've seen in his scum play as his partner before. I haven't seen them, so Pie's my pick.

Realized I didn't respond to your actual question when I checked my phone this morning.

Right now, my scum pairing is either Casey/Earth or Casey/You. Current money is on the latter, but I'm still undecided.

I don’t think he’s paired with anyone. He’s either a TP or a Lone Wolf.

The key here is to have a stache on hand for all occasions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXU38PwNrOs

Also, if we're sharing stache songs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB5FTZkfXDs

I stopped thinking a while back.

It's overrated. You're better off.

What does everyone think? Seems pretty cut and dried that he's scum, but I'd understand if you trust him because of the mustache of that guy on the arcade cabinet. It is manly, I'll give it that.

Damn, Chase H.Q.? That's quite the pull! A bit out there, but I like the cut of your jib.

Needless to say, bullshit, but fun bullshit. Points for effort.

VTL RT

Here’s the problem I’m having. Let’s say, I believe you’re town. That means you inherited a JOAT from Lunatic. Wonderful. Then you learned Ragnar’s role. A second JOAT. How were you not immediately sus of this knowing what you. Fine, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. Then you learned that Mharman is ALSO a JOAT. That should’ve sent sirens in your head. And yet what you’re telling is that you believed it and yall went kumbaya and planned night actions together? I’m sorry but that’s a very very tough pill for me to swallow

That's a very pared down version of what happened. I was sussing both of their claims for a while, particularly when I found out they were both JOATs. It did not make sense to me. But remember, I'm in PMs with both of them and Mharman used his Motivator first. He told me he did that, then I received a PM from Ragnar saying he'd been Motivated. So either they were a scum team and were gaslighting me (couldn't imagine the possibility of a scum Motivator), or at least Mharman was telling the truth. He then expanded on his claim after having effectively confirmed he was a Motivator, telling me he had a JOAT role. At that point, I was also informed about Ragnar's use of his Lightning Rod, and that he'd selected two targets. That wasn't a lot to go on, but it was a pretty ballsy claim to make that put Ragnar at huge risk if he was lying. I also couldn't really fathom a Lighting Rod scum. Then Ragnar told me about his JOAT role, and I got back to thinking that they might both be simultaneously manipulating me. I could see a world in which that would happen, even if it wasn't the most straightforward explanation for what they'd told me so far.

At that point, we were heading into NP2 and facing down two NPs. So I made a call. That wasn't "kumbaya," that was us taking a desperation tactic to prevent at least one of the NPs from resulting in an NK, and at the time, I was sussing Vader and Earth more than either of them, so I bought into it. When the first NP ended with no NK, yeah, that pretty much proved to me that everyone had taken the appropriate measures to prevent it, especially after Mharman became the NK in NP3.

If your follow up to all this is "and you believed they were both JOATs?" the answer is I had no choice but to do it. Either they were both JOATs or the tactic would have gone sideways and I would have called them both out for it in this DP. I made the decision that made the most sense to me at the time based on the confirmation of Mharman's role and the low likelihood that Ragnar was lying. Does that mean there are at least three JOATs in the game? From where I'm sitting at this point, yes. Is that baffling? Hell yes, but I'm also in a unique position to see that it's pretty damn likely.

Ragnar had no end of opportunities to kill Mharman if he chose. He knew exactly who Mharman would use his Doc on (him), and still the NK did not go through. Mharman was clearly a priority target for the NK, so he was likely right to protect himself. And as Ragnar surmised, I used my own protective role at the same time. It’s up to you whether you buy that story, but either Ragnar and I are both town or we’re both scum and this very elaborate story of NP2 actions is just made up entirely. Your choice on that front. 

This is all WIFOM, I’m basing my reads off of cold hard facts. There are now 3 claimed JOATs. I just don’t buy that. And I don’t buy that a Town WF would townread those claims from Mharman and Ragnar.

I completely disagree that this is just basic WIFOM, particularly if you truly believe that there is a town aligned TP and two scum. Under that math, one more NK would have won the game for scum by effectively making it 3-3, so yes, it does matter that someone who was very familiar with where the protection was being placed wouldn't then take advantage of the opportunity to kill another player. If your point is that you don't know if this three-player tactic actually happened, then fair enough, you sus the two of us and that's all there is to it. You either buy what I'm telling you or you don't. I can't prove it to you at this point.

And scum Earth would know that. Master Sword as PGO makes zero sense. Something that injures? Definitely. But not PGO. And Lens of Truth makes absolutely zero sense with a Tracker. The claim is atrocious cause of the soft claim and role claim.

Well, I'm not here to convince you that the claim makes the most sense, only that I have a very hard time seeing why scum Earth would make it, as I've pointed out already. I don't see it as likely all all that a scum Earth claims that they had an injuring role before Mharman flips to reveal his Healer. I can verify that the information he got from Tracking Rex was accurate before it was confirmed by Rex, so if he's scum, he either got extremely lucky knowing who Rex visited or he and his scum partner worked it out somehow. And if he is the Role Cop, as Rex keeps saying he likely is, then he and his partner made the active decision to allow Rex to get another Tracker result for reasons I can't fathom.

I'm not saying Earth is confirmed town, but I'm just not convinced that the story that gets him there is as solid as you both seem to believe it is.

Injuring is a weird mechanic, I think it's kind of presupposes a way to fix the injured player, similarly to poisoning usually indicating a poison healer, like in the last game he played. So, I think it's fairly simple to realize that revealing that snippet of information might cause someone like you who has access to all the roles to put one and two together and think that it confirms him to some degree. Or he might be a scum JOAT with a rolecop and a injure-POG ability and only saw fit to lie about the rolecop to discourage investigative roles targeting him. Mharman's oneshot seems like something the mod would add to balance a scum ability like that, which might have made the game way too swingy if he timed its use correctly.

Scum having a PGO role at all would be a first for me, so I can't say I see that as terribly likely, especially since it would make a whole lot more sense for him to invite visits without stating that he has it if he was scum. I can't imagine why scum would give away that they have a PGO, either. It would make a lot more sense for him to just have access to an injury-causing killing role, but that would also mean that he gave away that he has an injuring role by claiming a PGO he'd never use. So regardless, if Earth has an injuring role and he's scum, he's played it very poorly. Not really something I buy.

I wasn't expecting to be NK'd because I imagine that scum saw me as a great ML target due to coming out guns blazing against RT in DP2 and leading a disastrous mislynch. The only point at which I was taken off the table as a ML target was in this DP, when my tracker results lined up with other people's actions and confirmed my role. If I had chosen other targets I still could have had my role challenged and been a possible ML. Also, it's possible that scum had some insider knowledge about Mharman's night actions and saw the perfect opportunity to take him out.

So, let me get this straight: he role cops you NP2, sees that you're a Tracker, and decides not to kill you in the hopes that you, out of all 5 of the people on RT's lynch, would be the lynch this DP? You realize that that means he allowed you to go ahead with two back-to-back Tracker results that could have targeted his scum partner on his NK and he'd have no way of knowing, right? I get that you could have been the lynch, but I think it's unlikely that anyone going into this DP with the foreknowledge that you would have three Tracker results to report would think you'd be an obvious mislynch.

Mikal is a fairly experience mod. I would honestly be shocked and consider it bastard modding if he had built such a complete incongruence in theme and the workings of roles into the game. Everyone else is a specific game - Earth's claim screams that he locked himself into a soft claim via decade in DP1 but wanted to claim a role that didn't fit the actual game which he was claiming. I ran into this same problem as scum last game where Banana was locked into a consumable item claim and I couldn't find any items that fit both the theme and the role which we wanted to fakeclaim. We decided against yoloing it; it's my suspicion that Earth made the opposite decision.

I wouldn't consider this bastard modding. If he's stretching what applies to a given game by adding in a couple of roles that come from future games in the franchise, that's not terribly absurd, particularly if Mikal wanted to include this PGO mechanic to spice things up. It would hardly be a first to have a mod stretch their justifications to get the balance they want. Part of the reason I can still buy this is that my own role, Kirby's ability to copy the abilities of things he sucks up, did not exist in Kirby's Dream Land, which is my character. That didn't start until 1993 in Kirby's Adventure. I get that that was still the same decade, whereas his items came in a later decade than the one he locked himself into with his softclaim, but he's not the only one whose role is disconnected from the original game in the series.

Well, I can't say I agree with a lot of this analysis, since you're mainly putting Vader/David and Casey down as town on the basis of whether they were on the mislynch wagons. As someone who has specifically endeavored to stay off mislynch wagons as scum (especially when they seemed like foregone conclusions), I can say that's not a very strong reason for me to leave aside the issues with their claims, both of which have some pretty glaring issues.

Frankly, I'm just not on board for either a Ragnar or Earth lynch this DP, and much as I appreciate these posts, they don't change my mind substantially.

Apart from that, you did give some reasoning on Casey/Ragnar, so I'll respond to that:

The claim and night actions seem to be the crux of why people are scum reading Casey. If she was scum, the reason to make that fakeclaim would be to excuse roleblocking actions by pretending she was protecting someone. Using it on Ragnar twice makes no sense as scum if he had lied and told you that he had a fairly useless role (basically a bodyguard that also fucks up investigative roles, so less utility.) The only situation in which it makes sense is if you're trying to kill a protected player, and Ragnar disclosed his 'fake' target to Casey twice iirc (whiteflame) and Whiteflame didn't end up dead. If anything, this should have been a way for scum to realize that they should focus the roleblocker elsewhere, but Casey continued to roleblock/protect Ragnar.

You don't have to have an RB action to claim a role like this, though that is the more common play. If the goal was to put someone in the spotlight should an NK fail to go through, then I could absolutely see claiming this role and claiming to use it on the same target twice. Knowing that he was the Lightning Rod (at least from their perspective) ensured that he didn't have a meaningful response or way to determine that Casey targeted him, so all Casey would have to worry about was whether their visit was Tracked. Casey didn't know that I was self-protected NP2, so how do you know that she didn't try to kill me? Also, Ragnar's the one who is saying he cannot confirm that Casey RB'd him NP3. Again: could be that she didn't even target him. No one Tracked her.

The other thing is the this is a he-said she-said situation, and honestly I believe Casey here. The main reason is that Ragnar flat-out lied for most of this DP. Going by his last post, he's expended all of his 1x JOAT abilities so there was no reason for him to not put everything on the table at the beginning of this DP - he is essentially vanilla here. Instead he continued to lie about the lightning rod. Going from what Pie has said about Casey, she has remained consistent from the get-go. I am hearing the disembodied voice of Drafterman whispering in my ear: 'LYNCH ALL LIARS'.

Ragnar lied to the rest of you, yes. I received confirmation of his full role during DP2 and kept it to myself, so if you're lynching all liars, then I'm sus too since I confirmed him. And yes, there was reason for him to lie: it's useful to hide the fact that he might have the ability to use a role NP4, since it would have forced scum to consider his actions during the NP.

The main reason Whiteflame seems to townreading him, which he did in DP2 before the delayed tracker result, is due to him mentioning the 'injury' mechanic in his role? But if there is an injury mechanic it could be a scum ability that he would have knowledge of, so it's affiliation neutral. His is the only role claim which claims to be an entire series and not just one game in the series with a specific release date. I just see a whole bunch of scummy behavior and paper-thin role justification.

First off, he revealed it to me in DP2, he revealed it publicly in DP4. He revealed the delayed Tracker result after NP2, so yes, he necessarily did reveal the injury mechanic beforehand.

Second, when did I say that was the main reason I was townreading him?

I disagree that it's affiliation neutral. Scum Earth wouldn't have had reason to reveal this to me in a PM well before learning of Mharman's roles, he would have had much more reason to use such a role and keep its existence as part of his roles secret. Still, all that is some amount of WIFOM, so even if I think it would be a very strange move for scum Earth to make, I wasn't strongly townreading him based on that claim. At the time, I was townreading him based on his being the only player with an investigative role claim (this was before you had claimed). The main reason I'm still townreading him is that his results align with your stated actions, both for what he did and what you did. Maybe he did big brain this, but I don't see a world in which he doesn't kill you as scum following the revelation that you're the Tracker, and that's pretty much the only way your story of him RCing you NP2 makes sense.

I'm not saying it's impossible that he's scum, but I have several reasons to disbelieve it. As for behavior, this is far from the first time I've seen him produce some strange reads and been weird about lynch wagons as town, so that's not much of a factor in my perception of him. The only truly strange thing about him is the character claim, since you and Pie are right that his roles don't line up with the release date. I'm struggling to determine whether that's scummy or an odd choice on the part of the mods.

Oh, just reread Mikal’s last post and he said tomorrow night. So I guess we have an extra 24 hours to work with. Still, placing my vote just the same.

Alright, with a little over 12 hours left, I’ll be blunt: either Ragnar’s lying or Casey is. Casey claims to have been told they’d been RB’d both NP2 and NP3, which tracks with what Ragnar claims he did, i.e. the Deflector and the RB. Casey would know that regardless of their role so long as they or their partner targeted Ragnar NP2.

What doesn’t track is why Ragnar wouldn’t have then received notification that Casey had RB’d him on NP3. I asked Mikal about this, and there is no order of operations here - two RB roles would go off simultaneously and both sides would be informed. It’s possible that Casey did use their role on Ragnar both NPs, and Ragnar’s just lying about what he did. It’s possible that, knowing what Mharman and my plan was NP2, he had planned as scum to execute the NK and Casey prevented him from pulling it off. I can’t dismiss that entirely.

So both of them could be lying. The difference here is the scope of the lie. Ragnar claimed to have used his Lightning Rod on Casey and me NP1. Unless you believe he’s scum partners with me - hell, even if you do - that’s a huge shot in the dark. It means if, at minimum, Casey had had any verified actions performed on them, Ragnar would have been outed. The same is true for Casey in a sense, but the difference there is the RB. Both of Casey’s night actions were conveniently stopped because of who they used those shots on, so there’s always some room to argue that any subsequent targeting of Ragnar was only possible because someone interfered with Casey’s night actions.

So my vote is going on Casey. Unless someone has a convincing reason to prefer Ragnar here, that’s where it will likely stay.

VTL Casey

Just going to straight up rubber stamp everything Ragnar said above. I was dumb and kept forgetting that he hadn’t given away his full claim, hence I kept pointing to pseudo-CCs that weren’t there. That’s on me.

Like I said, I sus everyone at this point except REF. Some I obviously sus more than others

So with Ragnar’s full claim on the table, there are now three claimed JOATs and a confirmed one. At least one of us has to be telling the truth, and based on everything I know about both of them, they are.

Ragnar had no end of opportunities to kill Mharman if he chose. He knew exactly who Mharman would use his Doc on (him), and still the NK did not go through. Mharman was clearly a priority target for the NK, so he was likely right to protect himself. And as Ragnar surmised, I used my own protective role at the same time. It’s up to you whether you buy that story, but either Ragnar and I are both town or we’re both scum and this very elaborate story of NP2 actions is just made up entirely. Your choice on that front.

And speaking of other JOATs, one thing I haven’t mentioned yet is that Healer role Mharman had. He chose to use it NP3 on Rex, I imagine in part because he figured he’d be the target, but also because he knew town wasn’t using a role that would inflict an injury. The only one that could have? Earth’s PGO, which injures prior to killing. Maybe scum have access to a role that does something similar, but it’s striking that they haven’t employed it yet. Mharman’s role confirms the existence of some role that injures, and Earth’s PGO is the only one on the table.

I was always running under the assumption that there could be 2 scum and a TP who could joint win. Thats been the case since DP1

I got that, though I’m not functioning under that assumption. If it is true, though, that makes the fact that there wasn’t an NK NP2 all the more important. Scum wouldn’t have passed on an NP when that could have led to the end of the game right there, so something prevented it, whether that’s Casey’s action, Ragnar’s, Mharman’s or mine. At least two of those have to have been a factor.

I’m about to leave on my flight, so I don’t have time to respond to all of this at present. I’ll note, then, that I made a claim about what my role was that pseudo-CC’d David’s, then claimed as well that Luna had a role that I now have that pseudo-CC’s Casey, both claims I made after I’d been made aware of their claims and roles. If you want to believe that I’d do that and simultaneously be capable of maintaining discussion with five different people, none of whom have scumread me, then there’s nothing I could say that would convince you. If I’m in your POE at this point, then you should be mistrusting everything coming from my connections, which also means that you’re currently sussing, at minimum, Vader, Ragnar, Earth and me. And if you think I’m partnering with anyone but Ragnar, then you’d have to somehow believe I gaslit him into a strategy that prevented the NK NP2.

Also, since when are we at MYLO/LYLO? There are 7 players left. Wouldn’t that mean we’re assuming either three scum or two scum with a TP that would choose to win with scum?

Going to be on and off flights for the next 6-7 hours, but I’ll check in during my layover if I have time.

If he’s scum, then there are probably ways he can know. I acknowledge he’s in a pseudo-CC, but he’s in a pseudo-CC with the most townie player for me in REF. Between you and Casey there’s a pseudo-CC and between you and Vader there’s a pseudo-CC based on everything you’ve said.

My point was that there are multiple pseudo-CCs on the table. In fact, there’s a lot of odd with the roles that are out there, but I happen to know that several of them are real based on the flips and the specific info I have access to. I know there are numerous pseudo-CCs in play and, as I’ll get to in a bit, multiple town JOATs as well. That set me off when I learned of it, too, so I get why it would have you on edge, but if every individual pseudo-CC and instance of a JOAT is going to do that, then you are going to have way too many people to sus. At this point, that list would include at least four of the remaining players. But there’s a difference between having some pseudo-CCs where a single role in a JOAT aligns with another in a different JOAT and having a multi-use role be fill a very similar niche to multiple JOAT roles.

Fair enough, but it’s still awfully convenient, especially combined with everything you’ve said.

I don’t understand, what’s convenient here? That I had a townread on someone for other reasons than one element of their claim?

And yes, since David full claimed what he did, I’ll out my role:

I’m Mario. I am a JOAT. My roles are:

Super Mushroom: essentially an extra life, functions like a BP with me surviving an NK (used NP2).

Power Star: immune to night actions that are not the NK (still have this).

Fire Flower: this is the mafia-specific RB.

So why’d you say earlier that you didn’t know why he was flipless?

I didn’t want to reveal my hand last DP. I’ve been clear in this one that I know the reason. I was straight with both Ragnar and Mharman about it.

Not to mention it relies a massive part on if I believe you or not, which I frankly don’t at the moment.

Let’s tackle this now. If you think I’ve simultaneously manipulated at least four people (possibly five if you buy that no one who has claimed to Mason me is my scum partner) in different chats, I’m deeply flattered. That would be my best game of all time. If you think I would then try, with a tremendous amount of insight into every other player, to claim this specific role with more pseudo-CCs and a JOAT flipped already, that would certainly be a choice. Both would obviously be sussed, and it’s much harder to draw attention to other instances of them when I’m engaging in them myself. And the only person who could realistically be my scum partner would be Ragnar at this point, who I have openly stated I had plans with during the previous two NPs, essentially tying us together.

If you want to believe all of that is true, I don’t know what to tell you. It’s a mix of some incredible behavioral play across multiple Mason chats and some really strange choices that draw attention to me and the person you’d have to think is my partner for no reason.

Thinking about Casey from a 'Casey is scum perspective', why would she claim to be roleblocked if she was scum? Her claim seems crafted, if it is a fake claim, to explain away rolebocking visits as also having an additional fake 'protection' utility that would always appear to be real because scum would just NK someone else. Why claim she was roleblocked, which just raises additional suspicions? Why not just claim to be vanilla or something if you were going to do that?

Casey claiming they’ve been RB’d suggests the existence of a scum RB, which draws attention away from their own RB claim. If anything, it places suspicions elsewhere, not on Casey. A Vanilla claim would necessarily stand out here, and innocuous fake claims in general aren’t likely to fly, especially at this stage. Scum had to take chances. The risks are there whether you’re talking about Earth or Casey, but at least Earth has some corroboration of what he did and to whom.

Was info about Mharman's role known NP3? It seems like there was some kind of plan that multiple people knew about - if one person in that circle was scum then they might know that he had some manner of protective role. If they knew that and also knew that Mharman didn't know that they knew, then that would be the ideal time to NK him.

Assuming that’s true, you would also have to believe that the scum among us either chose not to use that information NP2 or was unable to use it. As far as I can tell, the latter requires you to believe Ragnar is scum and Casey is telling the truth (fair enough if you do, I guess), and the former requires you to believe that scum would actively choose not to put us in MYLO this DP despite the obvious opportunity to do so.

I don't really know Earth/Shining's level of acumen, having never played with him before, but if he is scum then he's on a team with other people who could have told him what to tell you regarding my night action and helped him to craft a fake claim. Maybe he's not up to the task of figuring it out himself as you seem to be implying (I personally don't know the guy), but if he had a competent scum team/partner he wouldn't need to.

Part of what I’m telling you is that, based on my direct experience with him in this game, I don’t think he’s pulling something like this off. I’ve been scum with him in several games before and I just don’t buy it here. I’ve seen people argue these kinds of big brain tactics were being used by scum only for their FoS to land on the wrong target too many times.

Just noticed you said Ragnar was null, that was my error. My point that there is likely at least one pseudo-CC in the game still stands, though. There are lots of claims with overlapping roles.