Helz

Thoth wrote:

I'm still at a loss as to how Helz saw through my bluff.

I only halfway did. It was a cold logic cost benefit analysis. Massive risk with little gain for me and my team. I did recognize it could be a gambit which was a factor increasing risk for the massive loss but I have just played a stupid amount of mafia to where I make such calculations very quickly if that makes sense.

It was a good play. Your conclusion was wrong and I did a lot to manipulate you past that. Like when you offered to sheep my vote and I pushed you to not sheep me at all. Gotta apply layers of WIFOM but that looks like something no wolf would ever do. What wolf in their right mind would reject taking a vote from the town and getting an extra one for their team?

Duno how much sense I am making there but hopefully that explains a bit of my mindset.

ILikePie5 wrote:

I’m going to disagree with your town sided assessment. I think yall could’ve gotten multiple kills off. Not to mention yalls claims weren’t that good, which is your own fault. But all the counters were there

I am open to hearing how I could have claimed better. Granted Uranium was intended to look bad without giving info for WF's flavor split solve but I would like to hear what I could have done better there.

Shining did not even have a claim until the end game which is kinda the towns fault. They let someone super hard lurk and as I poked it here and there for the optics I was actually surprised how much they were ignored.

Mikal had a slight slip but town also made a narrative for them which was kinda funny to watch. Not mad about town wolfing for you when your a wolf kinda deal.

WF feels like the town MVP imo. Just at a glance I actually think they individually had more detailed read walls than the entire rest of the town combined. They played very well and I will again apologize for my behavior. It was game related and I did not feel good acting like I did.

But anyways, Felt the game was pretty town sided. With every single action at night and every single day cycle going in mafias favor we were fighting for our lives in a super tight PoE D4. Quite honestly there was little I felt the town did right. There was never a real counter train and players hardly ever bothered to look back and read in general. Exceptions existed for sure but it looked like most of the town was low effort coasting and leaning on mech to generate positions.

But just because I can not stop myself 3 cat pictures I picked out for your viewing pleasure : )

(I was bummed I had to go down pretending like I was fighting. I really wanted to Lolcat)

That was the plan anyways. Positionally me hard bussing Shining as I gunned for Bullish put Bullish in a situation of being unreasonable for an elimination for the day. While they were correct in some of their views their views kinda flopped around and they did not seem able to effectively push any reasoning into them that gave the positions teeth. Really they were killed because we wanted a very specific end game with WF as kingmaker and my flip looking great for shining and shading Thoth.

Sorry if my fake flailing was ridiculous. It did not feel good doing it and I generally dislike using ATE appeals.

Bullish wrote:

Thoth wrote:

Why did they NK Bullish?

They were killing correct voters all game dude.

Town needs to remember the fundamentals, instead of using WIFOM to excuse every action.

So X-post from scum chat- (Duno if it will be released or not. I have no problem with people seeing it)

1- Team win strat- Bullish kill by Helz, Helz and shining distance and push Mag1c and hope to god the town is stupid enough to lynch a claimed doc.

2- Shining win strat- Helz kills Mag1c and is seen by Bullish as shining busses and Helz flails and paints to open PoE. Works with Shining having positional advantage on alignment factors to Mikal and Helz

3- Helz win strat- Shining kills Thoth. Thoth kill hard paints Helz as town given no scum would kill a player that’s pocketed that hard and Helz is sheltered from Bullish detection. Helz and Shining bus semi-confirming T! Helz if Shining flips or team wins if 1 town votes wrong

Idea being you can at a glance see the position of players and grab useful details like their read walls and bias against players. If your scum and not paying attention in 3 minutes you could skim the towns read walls and piece together your own using legit town reasoning players will not recognize. As scum you can identify the players that a specific townie trusts and have them poke at things they suspect to guide them into a lynch. Also makes it easy to understand exactly how a team should position themselves and see patterns that reflect how a team is positioning themselves.

I did a very low effort of my try hard thing charting reads and such. Vague way to look at the game thats very useful. There was things in town I woulda used like 1 of Makals posts totally flipped 2 reads with zero reasoning reflecting inconsistancy. You could also plainly see the gaps in the mafia teams reads at times. But a concept for note taking some people may find useful.

Thoth wrote:

Why did they NK Bullish?

Basically decided WF should be kingmaker as I worked that day phase (and a bit the one prior) to shade bullish, distance shining, and questionably blindly townread WF (which I did most of the game for the spew)

I am sorry for the deception. It did not feel good doing it brother. I very much prefer to be town and I dislike manipulating people against their interests.

I felt the mod kills were justified. Generally speaking when I deal with them on the other side managing communities I put things into 3 catagories-

Can I

Should I

Must I

For Lunatic the can and should are met. The must is on the edge with a clear advantage to the town resulting from an absolute hard rule break. The fact that no less than 2 players directly said "Do not do that its a rule break" kinda thing removes any innocence. Rules exist. I was unhappy to see that happen but it was honestly refreshing to see rules enforced on this site.

For Mikal The can and should were met but not the Must. I think they deleted an image post or something seconds after posting? Exigent circumstances with how much they were angle shooting and bending rules using OOG communication all over the place but I do not think the Must was met.

The only thing I questioned was the need to close the thread. Not a big deal but it changed things. Could have been good to withhold flips and let the day cycle play out but it did not really change the game (not closing the thread.) It did substantially change our plan as the Mafia team.

Lol. I did have the intention of Lolcatting the day I was going down. We planned that out well in advance but drew the conclusion it would be better if I sold it ghosting or being serious so I just acted like a frustrated towny with really really really stupid reasoning.

I apologize to WF for that. I was more trying to look unreasonable than frustrate you and I did not want the town to pick up that I was setting up Thoth and getting Shining town cred in the move.

Common* the fuck did my phone make that clue min…

It’s fine. Just end the game. You want some information I can not possibly have and you have made up your mind. I can point all day to my behavior that screams I am town but you just ignore it. So just end the game if there is not only no clue min ground between us but no way to reach any

Next time you go to your local church demand that the preacher explain gods reasoning for why your grandma died. If he can not explain it declare him evil. Because he does not have knowledge he can not possibly have he must be guilty!

You keep asking me for an explanation I do not have. I am not spoiled and I am not the host who can explain why what happened. I know I am town and I am not spoiled to know what happened and why. There is no reason at all for me to claim D2 that the person died and I was protecting them if I was scum. Just think about that. Why on earth as scum would I even reveal that info? What possible sense does that make? Much less doing so before everyone else had claimed their actions.

If I was scum at the very least the logical play would be for me to sit on my hands and not claim that result right off the bat until I knew I had to. There is no reason for me to make such a play as it just looks bad unless I simply am town and was honestly giving a critical piece of mechanical information to the town.

I guess we just loose as people refuse to think. Both of the scum are on me right now. Thats literally the scum team. And town just shut their brain off and is marching right off that cliff.

If your mind is set there is no point in waiting. We are at Lylo and you are about to loose the game with your vote. Just do it if your gona do it or wise up and look at what I am saying to you.

New day and I still do not know what your on about.

Yeah, I have no idea why my action would have failed outside of the reasoning I gave. I am not the host with god level knowledge of what happened. Your asking me as if you think I know and I gave you the best assumption I have.

I have very strong reasoning I have very clearly explained for my read on you. Bullish gave the most vague reasoning while just flatly begging people to vote and insisting he was absolutely certain. That comparison is not good. The reason I question Bullish is between the PoE and their absolutely out of place read.

For mech I do not really see Hider as much of a redirector. I see 2 redirectives. And I do not see having a lot of them as any sort of AI. Played a game once with 8 bus drivers. However too much invest is absolutely game breaking which is why I was critical of it. The same as I was critical about town having even just 2 town protectives. Its less about the amount and more about what fits from my experience.

whiteflame wrote:

That's enough for me tonight. Helz, if you feel like actually addressing these, great. I'm going to get some sleep and just lay off of this for a while.

Take care. Sorry if things got abrasive.

whiteflame wrote:

Then stop citing a post thats citing a post thats asking vague questions and just ask a fucking question. What is so hard about that?

I already answered what I think happened in N1. I already answered your confusion about my conversation with Thoth and I already claimed every single possible detail about my role and what my flavor is. What are you even asking me?

Wake up and stop quoting a thing that quotes a thing that rambles about vague shit thats already been covered and just ask a simple question.

I'm just going to stop responding on the issue of claiming your character. I've said my piece on it. If you find that frustrating, I sincerely don't care anymore.

As for this, if your responses so far are truly the extent of how you're going to respond - with absolutely no mechanical analysis or details on how you think things went down for at least that NP1 night action to play out the way it did - then yeah, we're done here. You can call it vague, you can chew me out for repeating the point that you just haven't responded to over and over, but it's a sticking point for me. So I'll lay it out one more time with specific questions, and then I'm calling it a night. You'll have all the time you want to address them, and depending on the answers, I'll vote tomorrow morning.

Based on what you said, you targeted Kohai NP1. Kohai died anyway. Your role, the Vaporizer or whatever you took to calling it (I seriously don't give a fuck anymore), is an all-encompassing absolute block, so Kohai could not possibly have been the target of a night action, including an NK. You said yourself it should have neutralized all night actions that targeted him. You then pointed to the possibility of a Redirector or other movement of the target as a viable explanation.

So, questions:

1. Do you think scum have a second redirection role? We already know who Mikal used his night action on NP1 (me and Shining), so it cannot have been him. That, or do you have another explanation for how your role could have failed to protect Kohai NP1? Give me some idea of what you think the layout for scum night actions were here.
2. Why did you townread me after I claimed a different target than the one Rex confirmed? Even if you believe that there was another redirection role in play on the scum team (and you'd kind of have to given that Mikal had claimed to use his Magnet a set of targets that didn't include you or Kohai), I can't imagine just accepting the possibility of 3 redirection roles in this game at face value. You didn't accept that with investigatives.

For 1 I have not considered. I figured the absolute reason my action failed to protect was because of Mikal. Rex did have the result of you visiting Shining which is a solid question I do not have an answer to.

For 2 I town read you from analysis. It grew to mech confirmation over time but at the time I was town reading you I had unpacked the mech as far as I could and drew the conclusion that there is not information to do much with as I asked targeted questions and people chased their tail on the subject.

Everyone was focused on the redirective CC so I focused on the investigative CC. You will notice if we play together more I generally poke at what I feel is useful. If everyone is focused on 1 detail I start hunting for something others are missing given scum like to control the detail being focused on.

Bullish wrote:

I'm not gonna respond to a bunch of non-sequiturs. My man is literally doing the chewbacca defense.

Great case. Its not like I am making very focused well reasoned points as I have had to shove you this entire game to give any reasoning at all.

Bullish wrote:

Just the fact that Helz did not report your claim to the thread is evidence that he did not take it seriously.

Nice shade. Or maybe the fact I got my role removed after he knew I was only a 2x and removing my role would do nothing at all made me hard clear him.

Can people not see what obvious scum this dude is?

Bullish wrote:

I'm just gonna say this one more time. If you said to me in a neighbor chat that you joint win with scum, and then asked me to NK you, I would treat that as no different than if someone straight up asked me if I was scum. You are not going deep enough with the WIFOM.

Nice shade. It was more complicated than that and in a moment where we were interacting in a matter of seconds

whiteflame wrote:

Helz wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

Helz wrote:

WF. Get to your point. You are acting like I have not been up front with things and I have been nothing but honest. Please do not ruin this for the town. Its as simple as Shining/Bullish

I made my point. I've now linked to you several times the specific point about mechanics that has been the major reason I've sussed you this DP, and I still don't see a response. I can't tell if you've just missed it every single time or you're refusing to answer it, but here we are, in the same position with you defending yourself on points that just upset me behaviorally. If you can't find it, check back, it's not hard. If you found it and you just refuse to answer for some reason, give that reason. Otherwise, we're done here.

Yeah. About clear as mud. You can not clearly say what you are even asking and acting like its on me that your not getting a clear answer. Kill me and tank the game for town. Its simply Bullish/Shining. There is nothing complicated about this situation. Pick the order they go in if you want but you are going to loose this game for us.

Just. Fucking. Read. And. Respond. To. Post. #89. That's all I'm asking, that's all I want.

Then stop citing a post thats citing a post thats asking vague questions and just ask a fucking question. What is so hard about that?

I already answered what I think happened in N1. I already answered your confusion about my conversation with Thoth and I already claimed every single possible detail about my role and what my flavor is. What are you even asking me?

Wake up and stop quoting a thing that quotes a thing that rambles about vague shit thats already been covered and just ask a simple question.

whiteflame wrote:

Helz wrote:

The way this site is cool with angle shooting if I was a lesser man I would post contracts and designs. I really hate hearing that I refused anything though and will cut back to "Point to a single thing I have not answered." The only thing I have refused is to unpack the details of my flavor which I want nothing to do with and a town was mod killed over.

You want to screw around with flavor and think there is something to the pools go for it. Im not touching that with a 10 foot pole

Again, and I'm going to repeat this as many times as it takes, I AM NOT SUSSING YOU BASED ON FLAVOR. I'm not angleshooting, either. But I sure as hell am going to point to the odd fact that the person who kept defending themselves over the last two DPs as "I full claimed already" when I asked about your character hadn't posted it. That's weird. It's not the main reason I'm sussing you, but I can't ignore it, either. It gave you a lot of leeway to wait until everyone had already posted their character to post yours. That's it, end of story. If it upsets you for me to point it out, then so be it, but I can't help how I see it.

And I can say for the 30th time that I thought I had claimed my flavor and I disregard flavor and that its super unusual for flavor to even slightly matter in the first place to the point when 99% of mafia communities say "Have you full claimed" they are referring to all the details of your role. Go out into the world and play a game not on this site and just try to find a game where flavor is some big AI issue normally.

whiteflame wrote:

Helz wrote:

WF. Get to your point. You are acting like I have not been up front with things and I have been nothing but honest. Please do not ruin this for the town. Its as simple as Shining/Bullish

I made my point. I've now linked to you several times the specific point about mechanics that has been the major reason I've sussed you this DP, and I still don't see a response. I can't tell if you've just missed it every single time or you're refusing to answer it, but here we are, in the same position with you defending yourself on points that just upset me behaviorally. If you can't find it, check back, it's not hard. If you found it and you just refuse to answer for some reason, give that reason. Otherwise, we're done here.

Yeah. About clear as mud. You can not clearly say what you are even asking and acting like its on me that your not getting a clear answer. Kill me and tank the game for town. Its simply Bullish/Shining. There is nothing complicated about this situation. Pick the order they go in if you want but you are going to loose this game for us.

The way this site is cool with angle shooting if I was a lesser man I would post contracts and designs. I really hate hearing that I refused anything though and will cut back to "Point to a single thing I have not answered." The only thing I have refused is to unpack the details of my flavor which I want nothing to do with and a town was mod killed over.

You want to screw around with flavor and think there is something to the pools go for it. Im not touching that with a 10 foot pole

whiteflame wrote:

He refused to claim his character. He told you his role. We repeatedly pointed to the lack of a character claim from him multiple times in this DP. You refused to convey the specific information on how he named that role, which was literally the only missing piece, for half the day because "it's rude." It's frustrating, man.

How did I refuse? I was working. Literally got a badass architect for a construction project and had a board meeting for my motorcycle shop and went to the American Legion and structured the contract for rental of a portion of the building. What part of that was a refusal?