@Savant, is magic allowed to clarify what his blackmail actually restricts, or is that off limits?
@Savant, is magic allowed to clarify what his blackmail actually restricts, or is that off limits?
@Mag1cman, I'm not sure what you're allowed to say, but if you can, could you explain the Helz vote at all? Even a yes or no on whether it's based on something from DP1 or something new would help.
Living
Claims
Kohai- Bill Clinton- Popular, confirmed (post 4/95, dp1)
Helz- Ehud Barak- Vanilla or Paranoid Gun Owner, does not visit (post 14/174 dp1, post 136 dp2)
NoAhLeEcLaRk- David Copperfield- 2x Town Redirector, did not act NP1 (post 6 dp1, post 118/129 dp2)
whiteflame- Donald Trump- Role unclaimed, claims he was Vanillaized NP1 (post 2/79, dp2)
Mag1cman- Claims he was Blackmailed NP1 (post 3, dp2)
Thoth- Says his role cannot Vanillaize (post 199, dp2)
Unclaimed
Lunatic
Mag1cman
Thoth
Unofficial Vote Count
Helz (1/4): Mag1cman
Mag1cman (1/4): Kohai
Not voting: Helz, Lunatic, Noah, whiteflame, Thoth
Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/9/2026 at 11:30 AM (post #43)
How am I being suspicious, all i'm doing is listening and observing so I can learn the game, are you expecting me to know it all right away?
I didn't say I expected you to know everything right away. Just a bit more thought process and contribution than what you have been giving.
I only have suspicion of you because how fast you were declaring what you were, even as a noob I'm smart enough to know that would have created suspicion of me
Can you please explained the bolded? I am so confused.
But prove us (as in me and Kohai so far) that we are wrong about you and that your not a scum
Guilty until proven innocent? Also how am I supposed to "prove" that? You can start by giving me a real reason you actually scum read me and I am happy to engage with you.
Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 10:44 AM (post #41)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/9/2026 at 12:43 PM (post #39)
What I find interesting about this analysis is how you are removing certain teams based on loosely explained town reads like Noah and thoth, which feel more like vibe reads, and you lumping me in with helz. You are ignoring a helz/magic bus for some reason, but you also think someone like me who is notorious for bussing as scum (I seriously do it every game, even last game I was scum with Pie I bussed him), yet you think I am paired with helz despite never pushing him once and even defending that I wouldn't lynch him dp1. So your proposing that I randomly switched into a meta where I pro buddying my team mate? The whole POE analysis feels far too early to be putting confident pairs together like that IMO.
Fair points. What do you think is the most plausible team?
FTR Helz is far stronger of a SR than you.
I am dubious of the helz wagon only because magic was sussing him all day phase and then he suddenly gets blackmailed, it kind of seems like it was set up to frame him. Do you think helz would be that blatant in blackmailing someone who was suspicious of him? I am open to it, but I am very very dubious.
Thoth is among my top reads, barely participating more than shining last day phase, I almost which I had let mago convince me to lynch him over shining, since shining is notorious for this behavior on both sides. Whiteflame I will stay open minded to as well but my initial thought with him is again that claiming to be vanillized is a strange strategy for scum to play. I can revisit that in the future and probably will, but it's enough for me to have some feelings about him being town. And I am not going to lie man, I find it really weird that you are the only other person in the game to mention a vanillizer in dp1. I just was skimming dp1 and seen you mention it. That said, if you are scum then one of magic or whiteflame would have to be lying since mafia usually only have an action each plus the night kill and you are confirmed popular.
Noah is weird for me, he's getting a lot of noob passes but I don't know how long I can give him those. His thoughts have felt pretty bland throughout the game. I am keeping in mind that this is a younger person, so I don't want to expect high level of play or anything. But his suspicions and overall activity haven't given me a lot to work with.
So all in all, I would have to say I am pretty open to everyone being scum but if I had to eliminate two I would say helz and whiteflame are more likely town in the group I mentioned. I can see magic pulling off some gambit here with the silence thing, especially knowing how busy he is in real life with his pizza shop. I do want to see how helz responds to some of the pressure he's getting, though from my pov there isn't a lot of shove behind it either.
Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 10:30 AM (post #37)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/9/2026 at 12:21 PM (post #35)
Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 10:13 AM (post #30)
Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/9/2026 at 11:37 AM (post #27)
I still have suspicion of Lunati
As do I
Why.
It's simple POE. As of now, there are 15 possible teams:
Helz, Lunatic
Helz, Mag1cman
Helz, NoAhLeEcLaRk
Helz, whiteflame
Helz, Thoth
Lunatic, Mag1cman
Lunatic, NoAhLeEcLaRk
Lunatic, whiteflame
Lunatic, Thoth
Mag1cman, NoAhLeEcLaRk
Mag1cman, whiteflame
Mag1cman, Thoth
NoAhLeEcLaRk, whiteflame
NoAhLeEcLaRk, Thoth
whiteflame, Thoth
Helz, Mag1c are never a team so that leaves us with
Helz, Lunatic
Helz, Mag1cman
Helz, NoAhLeEcLaRk
Helz, whiteflame
Helz, Thoth
Lunatic, Mag1cman
Lunatic, NoAhLeEcLaRk
Lunatic, whiteflame
Lunatic, Thoth
Mag1cman, NoAhLeEcLaRk
Mag1cman, whiteflame
Mag1cman, Thoth
NoAhLeEcLaRk, whiteflame
NoAhLeEcLaRk, Thoth
whiteflame, Thoth
Noah remains my strongest town read for the early claim + they do feel like n00b town. Removing Noah leaves us with:
Helz, Lunatic
Helz, whiteflame
Helz, Thoth
Lunatic, Mag1cman
Lunatic, whiteflame
Lunatic, Thoth
Mag1cman, whiteflame
Mag1cman, Thoth
whiteflame, Thoth
Thoth is my second strongest town read. Their play this game feels similar to last game. I'll also analyze their iso more leaving a poe of
Helz, Lunatic
Helz, whiteflame
Lunatic, Mag1cman
Lunatic, whiteflame
Mag1cman, whiteflame
I do have a slight tr on both mag1c and whiteflame. So that leaves us with exactly
Helz, Lunatic
There's a lot of stuff I dislike about helz. For example, their early frustration with flavor being AI is something that I see more from w!Helz. I think the most damming thing from his ISO was asking mag to claim flavor unpromptly and then him being killed. Even worse, he stated:
N0 cop claims is very standard practice globally within the mafia community. It works very well and is frustrating for scum. I get that your new to the idea but there is a reason its such an accepted play. I would challenge you to find a single standard mafia championship game with a confirmed cop where it was not used. There is a reason for that- it actually works for town and hurts scum.
He's played enough games on here to know that this isn't our typical meta. Furthermore, he played many games on our site before so why only now is he asking us to do something that's standard practice elsewhere?
What I find interesting about this analysis is how you are removing certain teams based on loosely explained town reads like Noah and thoth, which feel more like vibe reads, and you lumping me in with helz. You are ignoring a helz/magic bus for some reason, but you also think someone like me who is notorious for bussing as scum (I seriously do it every game, even last game I was scum with Pie I bussed him), yet you think I am paired with helz despite never pushing him once and even defending that I wouldn't lynch him dp1. So your proposing that I randomly switched into a meta where I pro buddying my team mate? The whole POE analysis feels far too early to be putting confident pairs together like that IMO.
Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/9/2026 at 10:24 AM (post #36)
automatically questioning my decision, wanting answers, in reality I don't have to answer for my opinion or suspicion, it's something I think therefore I will keep watching to make my final claim on what I think about you
I am questioning you because you are a player in this game, how do I solve you if I don't ask you questions or get opinions from you?
Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/9/2026 at 10:13 AM (post #30)
Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/9/2026 at 11:37 AM (post #27)
I still have suspicion of Lunati
As do I
Why.
Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/9/2026 at 10:16 AM (post #32)
I agree Helz/Lunatic are the most suspicious here, and Lunatic seems to be getting hostile or defensive about us making a claim?
Can you point out where I was defensive?
Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/9/2026 at 10:13 AM (post #29)
You was so fast to explain what you are, seems scummy.
You have me mixed up with someone else buddy.
Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/9/2026 at 9:37 AM (post #27)
I still have suspicion of Lunati
Can you explain why?
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 7:49 AM (post #24)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/9/2026 at 9:40 AM (post #20)
What does being blackmailed mean? Can't say a certain word?
That's usually what it means. Last time I recall seeing this played was in Magoroth's Amber game where Bullish (he was Oberon) was Blackmailed. Got himself modkilled by... I believe it was Casey at the time, though they swapped in for Thoth at some point.
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/endgames/posts/5o/amber-endgame
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/iso?userids=69f0e3b9dee4aca7a84cf6c9&postids=69f791e90b2f89d5f87f662a
I have created roles similar to this before, though I don't remember what I've named them. Hmm, interesting.
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 6:51 AM (post #17)
Also, I'm willing to full claim if desired, especially given that I don't have my role anymore. The value in keeping it to myself at this point is just in the potential for a CC, which isn't nothing, so I'll hold off for now.
Yeah probably hold onto it for now, I personally believe you being vannilized, that's a wierd thing to make up.
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/9/2026 at 5:43 AM (post #2)
Alright… so I was Vanillaized and scum have a living town player’s PM to work with for their fake claims. Love that.
You were vanillaized? Damn.
What does being blackmailed mean? Can't say a certain word?
Unofficial Vote Count
Shining (3/5): Lunatic, Magoroth, Kohai
Helz (2/5): Mag1c, WF
Not voting: Helz, Noah, Thoth, Shining
Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/8/2026 at 8:38 AM (post #366)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 08/10/2026 at 16:30 (post #363)
Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/8/2026 at 8:20 AM (post #362)
I haven’t thought about it, but if I was as inactive as Shining usually is it wouldn’t surprise me if my first contribution is to say what the scum team flavour might look like. It’s an attempt at scumhuntig even if it’s not particularly useful
I just don't know why he won't read, he is only sometimes responding to pings. But he clearly hasnt even read the first few pages. You can tell because he didn't even know about the peek stuff which was discussed earlier on. If you were town and trying to solve you'd think that reading even a bit would be the priority. Again, I can see town earth doing this too, but its very frustrating, and if we give him a free pass and he is scum it's gonna be mega annoying, to me at least.
I get your frustration, I really do, but I don’t think he’s scum unfortunately. I could be wrong but I don’t see myself voting them at EoD.
Ofc if circumstances change or if anyone can show why I’m wrong to read Shining the way I am I’d be open to changing my mind.
I don't see anything to town read him off of, at best hes a null read, but he has every oppterunity not to be. All he needs to do is participate, read literally anything. If you were town you would want to do that right?
Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/8/2026 at 8:20 AM (post #362)
I haven’t thought about it, but if I was as inactive as Shining usually is it wouldn’t surprise me if my first contribution is to say what the scum team flavour might look like. It’s an attempt at scumhuntig even if it’s not particularly useful
I just don't know why he won't read, he is only sometimes responding to pings. But he clearly hasnt even read the first few pages. You can tell because he didn't even know about the peek stuff which was discussed earlier on. If you were town and trying to solve you'd think that reading even a bit would be the priority. Again, I can see town earth doing this too, but its very frustrating, and if we give him a free pass and he is scum it's gonna be mega annoying, to me at least.
Originally Posted by Shining on 10/8/2026 at 7:43 AM (post #355)
I will just tell you outright you should probably plan on a second person should you decide to abandon the wagon. You guys are talking about having the game reach DP4, but remember that you can also just blitz through days if needed. In other words, don't rush too much.
Who do you want to lynch?
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/8/2026 at 7:21 AM (post #350)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/8/2026 at 6:45 AM (post #335)
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/7/2026 at 10:26 PM (post #301)
I'm headed off for the night. Like Mag1c, I'm looking for a good claim here. Hesitant to put Helz as my choice for a lynch right now, but I'd like to either be able to set him aside or make a more concerted effort to coalesce around a lynch well before the end of the DP.
Helz already claimed Ehud Barak and that he has a visiting action. Are you demanding a full claim?
Did he claim a visiting action? Honestly, I don't recall seeing it, though I'll dig back through his posts.
"I will say I am not super concerned with it revealing actions. My action you gotta do some real mental gymnastics to conclude its connection to my flavor."
He said this in 174.
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/7/2026 at 10:26 PM (post #301)
I'm headed off for the night. Like Mag1c, I'm looking for a good claim here. Hesitant to put Helz as my choice for a lynch right now, but I'd like to either be able to set him aside or make a more concerted effort to coalesce around a lynch well before the end of the DP.
Helz already claimed Ehud Barak and that he has a visiting action. Are you demanding a full claim?
^^^ Preach
Originally Posted by Helz on 10/8/2026 at 4:01 AM (post #329)
I am a bit surprised you guys are okay with helz as our first lynch today.
So a bit of what I was doing was making myself an obvious TPR. Scum will want to reveal what I can do or eliminate me. Some people bit down on that trap of a sandwich. I think it was kinda funny but before I say more I will wait for others thoughts.
Between the 3 people voting you, who is likely scum team, or do you think one is off your wagon? Magic/whiteflame bandwagoning blatantly doesn't seem as likely as a move but its possible.
Originally Posted by Shining on 10/8/2026 at 3:06 AM (post #327)
You guys always go this route with me and yet you always end up eating shit when I flip town. Whats this about inactive scum? Isn't this my town play? I get its frustrating, but theres nothing to scum read me on lol. Anyway, I reckon you will be disappointed if you force me to character/full claim.
No one is asking a lot from you though. We are simply asking you to play the game you signed up for, and i'll never understand why you even sign up for these if you can't read and stay caught up. How is this even fun for you? No deduction, or solving going on, which normally I would say indicates someone is scum.... you just do this all the time. Some times you actually are scum, and sometimes you are town. But blaming us for being victim to this behavior is wild. How are we supposed to play around and interact with a player who.. refuses to play? Like I really just need it to make sense to me. What are you doing here if you aren't going to play?
Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/8/2026 at 4:56 AM (post #322)
If I’m the Cop my NP0 peek is Noah
What does peek mean in this context?
This has been a large topic of the day phase that started fairly early, it's a shame you haven't even bothered to read the first few pages.
Anyways Helz offered this as an idea for cop claims, so if a town cop dies and doesn't reveal an innocent this allows them to do so without exposing who the cop is, since everyone is outting potential results. There is usually no np0 cops, so this will become more important after dp1, but we are doing it anyways, cuz why not.
N0 Peek Claims
Helz- RexFavilla- not in game, old player list (post 14)
Kohai- NoAhLeEcLaRk (post 19)
Lunatic- whiteflame (post 153)
whiteflame- Mag1cman (post 158)
Mag1cman- “between Pie and Noah”, Pie not in game (post 163/164)
Thoth- Helz (post 235)
Magoroth- Noah (Post 322)
No peek posted
NoAhLeEcLaRk
Shining
Originally Posted by Magoroth on 10/8/2026 at 2:58 AM (post #323)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 08/10/2026 at 10:54 (post #320)
VTL Shining, down to switch to thoth or the new guy if people are inclined, and if shining wants to participate I can reconsider. But we are wasting limited time in the day phase and shining hasn't done anything other than a few nothing posts, this is not something we can deal with. If this player is scum he is getting a free pass. It's not purely policy at this point, nothing hurts worse than getting fucked by an inactive mafia team. Drafterman once said "An Active town will eat itself in the face of an inactive mafia". That qoute stuck with me, and he had a very good point.
Sure this works for me
VTL Shining
Reason I prefer Thoth is that we have two inactives yet people mostly talked about only one of them. I realise Shining’s inactivity is worse than Thoth, but it could still indicate Thoth is scum and that’s why he’s been given a free(r) pass
I share the same skepticism about thoth, I will help pressure him with you after dp1 is resolved.
Epstein’s Island Mafia Claimslist
Graveyard
None
Living
Claims
Kohai- Bill Clinton- Popular, confirmed (post 4/95, dp1)
Helz- Ehud Barak- Has an action, role unclaimed (post 14/174, dp1)
NoAhLeEcLaRk- David Copperfield (post 6, dp1)
Magoroth- Michael Jackson- Says role is unusual (post 43/178, dp1)
Unclaimed
Lunatic
Mag1cman
whiteflame- Refused to claim, says Epstein is prominent in his PM (post 89)
Thoth
Shining
Unofficial Vote Count
Helz (2/5): Mag1c, WF
Thoth (1/5): Magoroth
Shining (1/5): Lunatic
Not voting: Kohai, Helz, Noah, Thoth, Shining