Originally Posted by NoAhLeEcLaRk on 10/6/2026 at 5:35 PM (post #77)

did you vote yourself out?

He's claimed a role called "Popular," which works by allowing him to take an extra vote before getting eliminated. The OP says 5 votes to lynch, but he would take 6. So he's encouraging others to also vote him to test that, showing that his role is what he says it is.

I'm willing to at least confirm it, though I agree with Helz that there is some minor risk of a hammer resulting from it. I think if someone does end up hammering this, though, they should know there will be extra scrutiny on them. I also recognize that the confirmation of his role isn't indicative of his alignment, but it's still worth confirming.

VTL: Kohai

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/6/2026 at 5:35 PM (post #76)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/6/2026 at 5:30 PM (post #73)

Alright, just got back from a one-day trip to Nashville (wife's medical appointment), so I'm catching up on the DP. Love the concept for this game.

I hope everything went well.

It's a year since she got major surgery, but she's doing significantly better. I appreciate this, though.

Alright, just got back from a one-day trip to Nashville (wife's medical appointment), so I'm catching up on the DP. Love the concept for this game.

I'll join.

Just to be clear, I still enjoyed this and appreciate the setup for the most part. It’s good to return to the game after a bit of a break.

Yeah, I have two complaints with the setup.

The biggest one is having a Miller without a guaranteed role for it to affect. That necessarily either placed the Miller in the hot seat, or gave scum an opportunity to effectively use their Dreamer fake claim as almost necessary to justify the Miller even being here. It’s not so much that Athena didn’t flip (though that’s part of it), rather that the possibility of never even having an alignment investigative just raises red flags, essentially demanding the Miller’s lynch thus basically confirming the Dreamer. I get the idea you were going for, but this was built to be a mechanical clusterfuck for town. Even if I had intuited that Athena was the Cop and lynched Luna over it, I would have been forced to consider believing Pie or lynching Vader, and that’s in spite of a strong behavioral read against Pie.

Second problem, that theme split is wonky. Big fan of Cat’s Cradle, and it’s arguable whether that apocalypse was caused by man or human nature, depending on which drivers are your focus (the military supported the efforts to create Ice-IX and while the cause in book for the apocalypse was a rogue actor, the cause for the creation of the means was human nature). I’d argue that the Zombie Apocalypse could fit the same mold. It’s not that the theme split isn’t discernible, it’s that several town characters arguably could fall on either side of it.

I do agree that behavior should’ve directed more of our lynches and was a problem, particularly for Pie. Even mechanically, his explanation of his role was full of holes. That being said, with the above issues, I just would’ve had a near impossible time lynching Luna if I’d actually gotten Pie in DP3, and if we’d somehow gotten Luna, it still would’ve been an uphill climb to lynch Pie next. Maybe that’s just a me problem, but that Miller situation just threw me way too hard and theme didn’t appear to be helping at all.

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/29/2026 at 2:56 PM (post #228)

The miller essentially did nothing besides cause more dysfunction within the town because there was no way to confirm the miller. If Pie and Luna claimed something different then they would’ve outted me for not having a role connected to the Miller in this game unless they discovered about Athena (which I guess could be possible), but that’s just not a justification for a miller in this game.

Kind of a bummer to be honest.

Even if we somehow knew that Athena was the Cop role, that would have absolutely led to Luna’s lynch given that he claimed it, but I would have had to reconsider my read on Pie. I would have had a very hard time believing that your Miller exists solely to modify the result of a role Mag1c could have selected. My sus on Pie might have led me to lynch him anyway, especially given all the made-up extras he added to how the Dreamer works, but it would have been an agonizing final DP if they’d left me alive.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/29/2026 at 10:09 AM (post #214)

Seriously. Why do I put myself through this shit game after game? No one likes me and no one listens to me.

I’m done

I don't know where you're getting this, man. I had you as solid townread through DP2 and was absolutely considering your reads, it was only in DP3 that I started strongly second-guessing them. And of course we like you.

Originally Posted by Bullish on 9/29/2026 at 10:18 AM (post #218)

Athena was cop.

I won’t have access to my set up until night. Endgame will have to wait.

Given what I know now, that was basically a given. I've got thoughts on that setup, but like I said, they can wait for the endgame.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/29/2026 at 10:05 AM (post #213)

I’m so fuckin go done with mafia

Why the fuck did no one listen to me d1 when I told y’all not to let pie get away with that shit

...Dude, I'd been pushing for Pie's lynch for two DPs in a row. DP1 is one thing (where we necessarily have the weakest basis for sussing anyone), but I was repeatedly pointing to him as sus before he even came out with the bogus Dreamer claim.

Also, fwiw, I didn't trust my read on you all the way up to the end. I knew Pie was scum, but I was blind to this specific pairing for a few reasons, which meant I kept having to pick between you and Vader as a possible partner. Some frustrating back-and-forth aside, I didn't think you were scummy, just sus by POE.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/29/2026 at 9:55 AM (post #210)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/29/2026 at 7:53 AM (post #209)

Anyway, like I said, well played. I'll save more detailed thoughts on the setup for the endgame, but I do think we were almost doomed to lose after a certain point.

Yeah maybe, though our lawyer seemed almost useless in hindsight. Also Banana's role could have screwed us too, we got lucky taking that out. Yours could have been bad if you had targeted pie too.

Yeah, just from the visit it would have been a problem. I considered holding off on saying who I visited NP2 and seeing where that took us, but I ended up just giving that away. Bullish can confirm that I was doing a coin flip between Pie and Vader for that visit, too. Figures we lost that flip.

Anyway, like I said, well played. I'll save more detailed thoughts on the setup for the endgame, but I do think we were almost doomed to lose after a certain point.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/29/2026 at 9:47 AM (post #204)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/29/2026 at 8:46 AM (post #201)

Fwiw, even if we had lynched Pie correctly this DP, there was no way I was lynching Luna next DP. I had assumed one of you had to be real with Vader's Miller claim. You guys had our number.

Ya that was the backup. As long as I wasn’t lynched, we had it in the bag. Me flipping Lawyer and Luna not dying would’ve outted him

That makes sense, though even if you had been flipped, man... it would have been tough lynching Luna, particularly if you guys had killed Vader during the night. That Miller flip would have been impossible to ignore.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/29/2026 at 9:47 AM (post #203)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/29/2026 at 7:45 AM (post #200)

I guess maybe the whole Athena thing was the actual Cop, but it's weird to include a Miller for a role someone might get.

Yeah my guess is that magic had a cop in one of his roles. I went in to today expecting you to CC me as cop, the whole plan was for me to 1 v 1 pie, lose, and he goes to mylo with town cred. You were supposed to be the cop. I thought you were setting me up as the cop last day phase because you were trying some big brain tactic to CC me because you really were the cop. My mind was blown when there was no cop CC lmao. I was supposed to die!

That makes sense. Really thought you were the Cop going into the end of the last DP just by POE.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/29/2026 at 9:46 AM (post #202)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/29/2026 at 8:44 AM (post #199)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/29/2026 at 9:43 AM (post #198)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/29/2026 at 7:40 AM (post #196)

Lol, was it seriously Luna/Pie? Did not see that coming.

Yeah lol. I got the whiteflame curse. 3x scum in a row :/

Crazy. Someone's going to have to explain to me how we rolled a Miller this game because, as far as I can tell, there is no role that's affected by it.

Has to be the case cause Dreamer was the fake role

Yeah, that's a weird setup. If we'd lynched Vader 2.0 last DP, that would have confirmed his Miller and made me all the more certain one of you was real. The fact that Mag1c's other potential role choices didn't show basically meant we were in the dark about the existence of any alignment investigative role. Not blaming you guys for that (well played and smart to choose two alignment investigatives, taking full advantage of the opportunity), but this was almost a guaranteed loss for town given apparent role confirmations the moment Mag1c picked the Doc.

Fwiw, even if we had lynched Pie correctly this DP, there was no way I was lynching Luna next DP. I had assumed one of you had to be real with Vader's Miller claim. You guys had our number.

I guess maybe the whole Athena thing was the actual Cop, but it's weird to include a Miller for a role someone might get.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/29/2026 at 9:43 AM (post #198)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/29/2026 at 7:40 AM (post #196)

Lol, was it seriously Luna/Pie? Did not see that coming.

Yeah lol. I got the whiteflame curse. 3x scum in a row :/

Crazy. Someone's going to have to explain to me how we rolled a Miller this game because, as far as I can tell, there is no role that's affected by it.

If so, well played, just kind of baffled.

Lol, was it seriously Luna/Pie? Did not see that coming.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/29/2026 at 9:19 AM (post #191)

I am really thinking its kohai and pie. This rules out me and whiteflame and me also as we could have coordinated a quickhammer if we were the scum team. Literally no reason not to if we were both scum right now.

You know he's right. How's that theory about a scum Luna/WF team looking right now?

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/29/2026 at 9:02 AM (post #187)

VTL Kohai

If I am wrong, I don’t mind taking the L on this. But I just can’t be convinced right now on Pie or Whiteflame or Luna being more scum than Kohai to this point. Maybe I’m stuck in my head but I’ve read the game and been keeping up and doing my own thought progressions and reads. Every one just doesn’t lead me to a scenario where Kohai is town.

Fair enough. I'm leaning more towards Kohai as scum as well, so I can see where you're coming from. He hasn't been my focus for obvious reasons. I'll leave my vote off for the moment, give Kohai a chance to get on and say something at least. You can take that however you like.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/29/2026 at 8:42 AM (post #185)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/29/2026 at 5:57 AM (post #184)

Just verified with Bullish. The count would be 2.

Alright if he is scum lawyer, then you would have to be scum with him, which I don't neccesarily buy why you would tie yourself with him. If hes scum he is basically just a godfather. I guess it's possible pie is a redirector and redirected me or something too. Not sure if he picked up on me being cop. Hmm...

If Pie is scum, I'd be surprised if he didn't pick up on you being Cop last DP. I was trying to be as unclear as I could about why I was townreading you at the time, but it took a bit more to get Mag1c onboard for that one. At this point, the only way I can see you being scum is if you're precisely scum with Vader 2.0 and that you received the Cop fake claim (which would also have given you the opportunity for the Miller claim), but I'd also have to believe that you've been pretty light with such a strong fake claim to buy that. I think you'd take more advantage of it if given that kind of opportunity.

Just verified with Bullish. The count would be 2.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/29/2026 at 1:18 AM (post #180)

Does a self visit count as a visit for your role? Say if kohai lawyered himself the night you visited him would you see him move? Sorry if you answered this already.

You know, I didn’t think to ask this question. Based on what I’ve been told so far - that if I used my role to self-visit and I’m the only one to visit me, that counts as just 1 - I would assume that visiting someone else who visits themselves would give me a count of 2, just the same as if they visited no one. The role functions by number of points of contact, and self contact (keep your mind out of the gutter!) doesn’t appear increase the number.

I don't see much reason in engaging with Pie at this point and I think I've made the case pretty thoroughly against him, most of which he's avoided addressing despite the block quoting. I'm having a tougher and tougher time believing that Kohai's engaging in any of this in good faith despite the back-and-forth, so I'm putting the ball in your court. If there's anything unclear or something you'd like summarized from my views, I'll do what I can to address it. Your call.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 10:44 PM (post #171)

See above as that’s case in point for why wf / Luna is the team.

You have a very strange way of establishing this. You've done absolutely nothing to show that we're "hard shielding" each other despite claiming that's what we're doing, yet when we point that out to you, it somehow also demonstrates that we're the scum team? Make that make sense. I get that you've provided at least some reason for sussing each of us, but it'd be nice if you had at least some consistent narrative on why we're a team together.

Looking back through your ISO, you've given precisely two reasons I can find for townreading Pie.

The first is what you said in #46:

The issue I’m having with that worldview is pie clearly knew someone targeted him and Mag1c claimed it.

I responded to this several times and you didn't address my point. Again: Read posts #65 and #85. Long and short of it, he likely didn’t know. He risked nothing by claiming he’d been visited. If no one had said anything, he could have claimed scum visited him.

The second is what you said in #74:

W!Pie always includes me in the dream for an easy ML

I don't get why you believe this. You had two green checks on you, so I don't know what value you think he'd gain or why that would be an easy ML. Pie has two other investigative roles he knew he'd have to contend with this DP. He's drawn attention to me and Luna virtually from the start of the DP. Why do you think he had an incentive to draw attention to you instead?

So do you have another reason why you are townreading Pie? Or are you going to find a basis for supporting this reasoning? Because I feel like you dropped these thoughts and you've just spent the rest of the DP assuming they're absolutely true.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 4:31 PM (post #164)

It should be painfully obvious that it’s just wf / luna.

Notice they wont sus each other and have been hard shielding each other while casting shade on everyone else.

Give me one example of me "hard shielding" Luna. Hell, give an example of Luna "hard shielding" me. The most I can think of is my providing context for an argument between Mag1c and Luna, the result of which was a nullread of that single conversation.

Reading EOD - Vader’s reaction does feel quite town.

Funny, you called it out as feeling "so fucking fake" in post 428 last DP. So now you think Vader's reaction was genuine? What changed?

Pie / Vader are never a team because of what I mentioned in the previous post. If the scum plan was to fake claim miller then pie would tell vader1 to SOP claim.

The fact there was no SOP claim from bedore indicates that scum most likely was not planning on tbe fake miller claim and rheu likelt didnt know our meta to SOP claim.

This... doesn't make any sense. Vader 1.0 flipped town. He wasn't in a scum chat. The scenario here is that, when he swapped in for Kiggans, Vader 2.0 could have become scum and thus been told to fake claim Miller as soon as he got on, which he did. I think he'd SOP claim that shit regardless, and the more I think about it, the less I buy that his claim was a scum gambit. Now if your point is that Pie would have told Kiggans to fake claim Miller in this scenario, I agree, he would. And I don't think Kiggans would be able to ignore constant pings on his Discord if that was the plan.

Hence WF / Luna is my solve

Funny, I don't see an argument for why either of us are sus here beyond the claim that we've defended each other. I also don't see any reasoning for why you aren't considering Pie.

Pie has said that the Dreamer in this game is different from all other Dreamers he's ever seen since it is affected by a Miller. Pie has stated that his PM literally included as part of his justification confirmation of the existence of a Miller in this game. Both of these are required to buy his role despite existing in no other games in the history of this site, DART, or anything I can recall from games on DDO. A Cop requires neither. Why do you believe both of these are more likely than the existence of a Cop?