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whiteflame

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whiteflame

Alright, ISO for Luna:


Good deal of early softing that is in line with the character. I couldn't find anything that indicated Cop very early, but I wouldn't expect him to breadcrumb that role, just as I wouldn't expect Pie to do so for the Dreamer.


Some early sussing of the potential Kohai and Pie pairing before largely shifting focus to Mag1c in DP1. From that point on, it's largely a prolonged back and forth where both sides seem to argue past each other. Banana even mentioned this in post 245, and I basically agree with her perception: that Mag1c was making bigger changes to his reads than Luna thought were justified, and that Luna was ignoring or missing some of the justification Mag1c gave for those changes. After that, Luna largely dropped the issue (it was close to the end of the DP) and refocused his attention on Vader 1.0. He placed a vote there about two hours out from the end with some justification based on behavior (mainly reactivity) and concerns about his claim. I don't think that stood out as unreasonable, especially given the short time before the end of the DP.


DP2 started with individualized sets of questions for those left alive. Didn't seem like he used the answers much going forward, but I think these were more for engagement. There was some early frustration with Mag1c being antagonistic to those questions. That was followed by Pie's reveal and Mag1c claiming, which Luna acknowledged was probably legit in the absence of any other protective roles. Despite a lot of acknowledged behavioral scumreads that kept him in null territory, Luna dropped Mag1c as a potential lynch after that.


Attention largely shifted to Pie from there. That started with just seeking a claim, but shifted more into a scumread territory along with Kohai for distinct reasons. Kohai was because of the Tree Stump claim and a lack of clarity on his reads at the time, while Pie was more an issue of how big of a shift Pie was making in his reads based on the fact that he'd been visited. 


In terms of softing his role, Luna gave some indication of that by putting a slight town on Vader 2.0 in his reads mid-DP2 before just outright saying "I mean just because a cop hasn't claimed doesn't mean there isn't one lol" in post 222. You could argue that it was low-ish risk at that point - he didn't know my claim and Pie hadn't yet full claimed, but he knew Pie was a role that somehow registered a visit and I'd mentioned my own uncertainties with Vader 2.0. It's absolutely possible that he just saw the opportunity and took it. The vote at the end of the DP was rushed, largely just joined the wagon on Thoth saying that the Vanilla + Miller situation doesn't make a whole lot of sense in a rolemad game. Not the best reasoning, but I think we were all scrambling at that point. Fully gave away that he was Cop before the end of the DP.


DP3 looks largely consistent with his previous reads. I don't see any major shifts that led to him sussing both Pie and Kohai this DP, and that's where he's landed and largely stayed. Kohai characterized it as "panic mode" when it's largely just an extension of the obvious reads. Plus, especially from his perspective, a claimed Dreamer necessarily should be sus (overlapping modes of investigation, including him in the result) and a Miller less so (especially given that Vader 2.0 claimed well before he did). I'm not entirely clear on why he believes I'm town. He's sussing Kohai despite investigating him positive, but isn't sussing me despite receiving the same result. I think I know some behavioral reasons why he might be town or at least nullreading me, but it's something I'll admit I'm a little wary of.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 1:13 PM (post #155)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/28/2026 at 1:12 PM (post #154)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 1:10 PM (post #153)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/28/2026 at 1:02 PM (post #152)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 12:50 PM (post #148)
I just wanted to bring up this post again by Mag1c wrt Lunatic:


Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 10:25 AM (post #89)
Watch how Lunatic completely misrepresents me here. He is not town

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 2:28 AM (post #81)
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=5&comment_number=146

Pie as "Solid Town"

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=152

One of two posts he says I’m scumreading Pie, and I have Pie as a townread in this post.
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=157

Magic scum reading directly after ^

I literally have him as toss up here. Not a scumread.

Ignores the context of 156, where I noted a possible scum slip on Pie.

The reason being I could see one reason the possible scum slip wasn’t one.

Pie gave that exact explanation and the issue was resolved which I explained here

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=216

Which lunatic left out


https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=212

This is me just putting pressure on him to show up, not a scumread. I posted the same thing a second time later, with the same idea.

Says he still townreads him but casting shade.

And then he conveniently leaves out:



https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=223

These were my final real thoughts on Pie.

Idk the progression is and always has felt wierd. Then he goes full "town read on him" and protects him. The protection would have made more sense on one of his more consistent town reads like banana or thoth imo.


yes, I was suspicious of him early, and I did have a moment where a possible scum slip on my mind, but setting that aside, I mostly defended Pie. Why wouldn’t I doctor him? I already explained why I chose him over the other two. Banana and Pie was a closer decision, Thoth was obviously not going to be my pick.

Yes, I've read back through this progression. I've also read through the multiple follow-up posts where Luna acknowledged the lapses in his argument. Not saying it doesn't matter as a result, and I am trying to take Mag1c's reads into account at this point, I'm just trying to parse out how much of this specific post and the one he's quoting from is indicative of an effort to railroad Mag1c and how much is just selective reading.

I must say I really dislike your constant shielding of lunatic this day phase

...do you want me to just go back through the ISO with you? I'm acknowledging what I'm seeing. You can call it shielding if you want, but no, I'm not just reading into a single post and washing my hands of it. I'm reading back through their entire exchange. If you think that's inaccurate, tell me and I can walk you through it. I've got the time.

Do you honestly believe luna is town? If so, I want to hear your town case on luna


Did you see where I said I'm going to work through an ISO on Luna in post #145? It's going to take me a while, but I'll make whatever case comes of it after I finish. I'd prefer to give you something complete if possible.

whiteflame
Originally Posted by Vader on 9/28/2026 at 12:50 PM (post #149)
I have to analyze behavior and a lot of different things. I see an argument for either Pie or Whiteflame. I don’t understand why we are letting Kohai just slide the way they are though compared to the other characters


I've said it before that I don't think we should let Kohai slide, he's just not the focus of my attention at this point. Neither are you. My focus is on what I know: there are too many investigative claims and at least one of them (Pie and Luna) is supported by your Miller claim. I have a very hard time believing that both a Dreamer and a Cop exist in this game, but one must, so I'm evaluating which of them is least likely to be real.


As for you and Kohai, I can see an argument for either of you being plausibly paired with Pie, though the case of a pairing with Luna is harder to buy for either of you, at least behaviorally. It's part of the reason I'm sussing Pie more than I am Luna.


Regarding why I saw Kohai as town for as long as I did, that's down to him being my only green check up until this DP. Now that I have one on both you and Kohai, I'm reconsidering my read on him, since both of you have the same evidence for you being town from where I'm sitting. The main difference is the green check from Luna and, if it's a given there's a Miller in this game, then it's probably a given there's a GF or Lawyer on the scum team. Pie's own PM where a Miller was confirmed to him apparently mentions a GF. I can't ignore that.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 1:10 PM (post #153)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/28/2026 at 1:02 PM (post #152)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 12:50 PM (post #148)
I just wanted to bring up this post again by Mag1c wrt Lunatic:


Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 10:25 AM (post #89)
Watch how Lunatic completely misrepresents me here. He is not town

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 2:28 AM (post #81)
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=5&comment_number=146

Pie as "Solid Town"

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=152

One of two posts he says I’m scumreading Pie, and I have Pie as a townread in this post.
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=157

Magic scum reading directly after ^

I literally have him as toss up here. Not a scumread.

Ignores the context of 156, where I noted a possible scum slip on Pie.

The reason being I could see one reason the possible scum slip wasn’t one.

Pie gave that exact explanation and the issue was resolved which I explained here

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=216

Which lunatic left out


https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=212

This is me just putting pressure on him to show up, not a scumread. I posted the same thing a second time later, with the same idea.

Says he still townreads him but casting shade.

And then he conveniently leaves out:



https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=223

These were my final real thoughts on Pie.

Idk the progression is and always has felt wierd. Then he goes full "town read on him" and protects him. The protection would have made more sense on one of his more consistent town reads like banana or thoth imo.


yes, I was suspicious of him early, and I did have a moment where a possible scum slip on my mind, but setting that aside, I mostly defended Pie. Why wouldn’t I doctor him? I already explained why I chose him over the other two. Banana and Pie was a closer decision, Thoth was obviously not going to be my pick.

Yes, I've read back through this progression. I've also read through the multiple follow-up posts where Luna acknowledged the lapses in his argument. Not saying it doesn't matter as a result, and I am trying to take Mag1c's reads into account at this point, I'm just trying to parse out how much of this specific post and the one he's quoting from is indicative of an effort to railroad Mag1c and how much is just selective reading.

I must say I really dislike your constant shielding of lunatic this day phase


...do you want me to just go back through the ISO with you? I'm acknowledging what I'm seeing. You can call it shielding if you want, but no, I'm not just reading into a single post and washing my hands of it. I'm reading back through their entire exchange. If you think that's inaccurate, tell me and I can walk you through it. I've got the time.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 12:50 PM (post #148)
I just wanted to bring up this post again by Mag1c wrt Lunatic:


Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/24/2026 at 10:25 AM (post #89)
Watch how Lunatic completely misrepresents me here. He is not town

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/24/2026 at 2:28 AM (post #81)
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=5&comment_number=146

Pie as "Solid Town"

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=152

One of two posts he says I’m scumreading Pie, and I have Pie as a townread in this post.
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=6&comment_number=157

Magic scum reading directly after ^

I literally have him as toss up here. Not a scumread.

Ignores the context of 156, where I noted a possible scum slip on Pie.

The reason being I could see one reason the possible scum slip wasn’t one.

Pie gave that exact explanation and the issue was resolved which I explained here

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=216

Which lunatic left out


https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=212

This is me just putting pressure on him to show up, not a scumread. I posted the same thing a second time later, with the same idea.

Says he still townreads him but casting shade.

And then he conveniently leaves out:



https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?page=8&comment_number=223

These were my final real thoughts on Pie.

Idk the progression is and always has felt wierd. Then he goes full "town read on him" and protects him. The protection would have made more sense on one of his more consistent town reads like banana or thoth imo.


yes, I was suspicious of him early, and I did have a moment where a possible scum slip on my mind, but setting that aside, I mostly defended Pie. Why wouldn’t I doctor him? I already explained why I chose him over the other two. Banana and Pie was a closer decision, Thoth was obviously not going to be my pick.


Yes, I've read back through this progression. I've also read through the multiple follow-up posts where Luna acknowledged the lapses in his argument. Not saying it doesn't matter as a result, and I am trying to take Mag1c's reads into account at this point, I'm just trying to parse out how much of this specific post and the one he's quoting from is indicative of an effort to railroad Mag1c and how much is just selective reading.

whiteflame

I’m open to hearing a case against Luna as well, as I haven’t given him as much attention as I should. Regardless of whether Vader is town or scum, we know at least one person between Pie and Luna are town (either confirmed by the existence of a Miller or by the fact that there can only be two scum). So I’m going to ISO Luna next, see what I missed.

whiteflame

People can feel free to read through Pie’s progression for themselves. It does not read like someone who became aware that Vader was effectively townlocked by the mod early in the DP. It reads like someone who thought there could be a Miller based on his PM, second-guessed it several times, and only came in for the final 30 minutes to argue that a Miller was effectively mid-confirmed to be in the game by his PM.


Seriously, don’t take my word for it. Read through his progression on Vader last DP. ISO him yourselves. See how that sits with you.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/28/2026 at 11:00 AM (post #139)
I didn't say you'd complain. You'd be making a huge fucking deal in the DP if attention was put on Vader. I did notice that you mentioned Vader was likely town based on your PM earlier in the DP, but it was a long while after that and a lot of sus directed at Vader before you made the point adamantly. - WF

Read this post. He’s saying I would’ve made a big deal if Vader2 was ever going to be lynched. But I did bring the attention away from Vader2 by saying he’s likely town based on my PM very early on

And then again at the end of DP2, I diverted back to Thoth from Vader2. My Thoth read was wrong, I’ll admit that, but saying I didn’t protect my townread enough is wild.


So let's ISO how you progressed through DP2 on this.


In post 53, you said:


I think he’s town because of something in my PM, unless Bullish is a troll and specifically gave Miller as the fake claim


That indicated that you had asked something about the Miller affecting your role. I'll also note that you were lending some credence to the possibility of Miller being a fake claim here, a point you've since called me out for arguing was a possibility. Then, in post 204, you said this:


You can’t do anything about vaccum decay either, but that’s a Miller. There’s an inconsistency


That was just the second time you'd mentioned the Miller last DP and despite evidence from your own PM suggesting there was a Miller, you were sussing his justification. You once again called out the possibility of a Miller fake claim in 231. The next and last time you mentioned it was after he reached L-1 in post 322:


My role implies a Miller exists. It’s not traditionally how the role works, but Bullish made a point to mention it. I’ll hammer him to get a lynch off for information, but know that I townread him


So, no, I wouldn't say you were at all consistent in supporting a townread on Vader despite information that's apparently just written directly into your justification. You waffled all over the DP about it until he became one of the lead lynch wagons. I've already admitted that you mentioned the PM support early in the DP, but given what you apparently had mod confirmed to you last DP and your apparent certainty now, it's beyond me why you weren't this adamant last DP.

whiteflame
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/28/2026 at 10:57 AM (post #138)
I've been thinking more about Kohai and I think we're giving him a little too much credit here.
The biggest thing is the GF argument. He keeps saying my Cop result could be messed with by a GF, but then uses my result to basically clear himself. Like, you can't really have it both ways lol. Whiteflame, your check on him only tells us he didn't visit anyone. A goon can obviously do that. And if Kohai is actually the GF, then my result isn't clearing him anyway. I also don't love how quickly he's narrowed everything down while basically taking himself out of the equation. That's pretty convenient if he's scum. I think Kohai deserves way more scrutiny than we've been giving him.


I'm considering it. Nothing about his claim clears him, and the only difference between him and Vader for external clears is the result you received on him, since both received a green check from me on different nights. So it's mainly down to behavior and I'm still digging back through their posts to get a read on that.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/28/2026 at 12:11 AM (post #134)
I feel like there has to be a solve here. A few things stick out:

1) Whiteflame's claim and role:

All I’ll say for now is that I got one of my all-time favorite apocalypses. Do with that what you will.

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/87/apocalypse-mafia---dp1?comment_number=8

Ice-IX is a unique apocalypse from Cat's Cradle, which I have never heard of until now. Personally, this looks like a perfect fake claim since it would require Bullish having knowledge of this book and specific type of apocalypse and whiteflame just happening to get their all time favorite.

It's not impossible, but a lot of things that make this stick out like a sore thumb.


So, I'm sincerely interested. Walk me through what my thinking must have been for this to be a fake claim. You clearly recognize that I softed this early and reenforced that by mentioning it was fictional, so you'd have to believe I both grabbed my favorite example of an apocalypse in fiction and was so giddy about my choice that I made sure everyone knew I'd done it from the very beginning of this game. You'd also have to believe that, with virtually complete knowledge of everyone's claims, I went with a Contact Counter as my role of choice, a role that necessarily stands out like a sore thumb, particularly set against a flipped investigative and two more investigative claims.


I get that this is all WIFOM, but as someone with a long track record as scum, my history is an open book. If you can find any examples of me having done anything similar to either of these in a previous game, I'd love to see it.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:57 PM (post #129)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 10:54 PM (post #128)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:46 PM (post #127)
If Vader is scum then who is their likely partner and why?

You’d have to believe it’s either Pie or Luna. Both have given his role significant support, though only the former has said a Miller has effectively been mod confirmed to them as part of his PM. Either way, if Vader is scum, his partner would’ve had to guess at the existence of an alignment-investigative role before Vader. I recognize that that also means they would have had to ignore pretty big softs during the last DP and gone for the claimed Doc as their kill. They would have decided not to visit Pie (if Luna’s scum), or not RB Luna (if Pie’s scum). Still an outside chance scum received Miller as a fake claim, but I’m buying that less and less the more I consider it.

That wasn’t the question. It’s not what “Is have to believe” it’s what you would believe


Change the word "You'd" to "I'd" and yes, it answers your question. Sorry, I like to frame things from the perspective of the person I'm talking to when I'm providing my reasoning.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:46 PM (post #127)
If Vader is scum then who is their likely partner and why?


You’d have to believe it’s either Pie or Luna. Both have given his role significant support, though only the former has said a Miller has effectively been mod confirmed to them as part of his PM. Either way, if Vader is scum, his partner would’ve had to guess at the existence of an alignment-investigative role before Vader. I recognize that that also means they would have had to ignore pretty big softs during the last DP and gone for the claimed Doc as their kill. They would have decided not to visit Pie (if Luna’s scum), or not RB Luna (if Pie’s scum). Still an outside chance scum received Miller as a fake claim, but I’m buying that less and less the more I consider it.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 9:44 PM (post #120)
I’ll also note that I softed Dreamer very early DP2. And I stated that I townread Vader2 because of my PM very early and the only way Vader2 was scum was if Bullish was troll


https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/88/apocalypse-mafia---dp2?commentId=6ab47c542a2feda0d8972421


Both WF and Luna were the last to claim, so they had their pick of roles to claim.


Actually, you were the last to claim. I'll give you that you softed early (at least insofar as you claimed something in your PM vindicated the Miller claim), but you were the last to claim your actual role, and your argument is that scum didn't figure out you had the Dreamer role, otherwise you would have been visited during the NP.


I'll grant that Luna being a late Cop claim should be at least somewhat suspect. A Cop should claim late, that doesn't mean it's a given that they're actually the Cop.


And yet, with all my choices that I could have selected from, I chose a niche role that I've never seen before, having had both you and Luna soft investigative roles before I claimed and presenting results that were green checks on two remaining players. Sure, why not?


There’s no world where WF can reconcile you being scum, and the fact he is shows that he’s keeping his options open.


I've explained my concerns about Vader. Setting aside the possibility that he received a fake role claim of Miller, that option becomes significantly less likely, but not impossible. For the time being, yes, I'm reconsidering my reads and keeping my options open. You make that sound terrible, but both Vader and Kohai are reliant on external checks (and evidence from your PM apparently) to support their claims. You may be able to dismiss Vader. I can't, not entirely.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 10:15 PM (post #123)
Give them the BoTD they are new and may not have known to SOP claim


They are new to forum mafia, not to mafia generally, but there's some chance that games they've played before handle SOP claims differently or don't feature Millers often.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 9:19 PM (post #116)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 7:13 PM (post #105)
I’m going to post more this evening (sorry for the delay), but I’d like to ask everyone: do you honestly think Bullish would essentially just give away the existence of a Miller in the PM of the only known player whose results are affected by said Miller? Seriously, it would be like my PM including wording that strongly implied the existence of a Ninja, except this also effectively confirms the existence of a player with an SOP claim.

But if Bullish have Miller as fake claim, why does Kiggans not SOP claim it with Pie as partner?


See my response above.


To be clear, this does not make Vader’s claim sus, but I can’t believe Bullish would make this error and if he had, I can’t believe that Pie wouldn’t have made a huge fucking deal about it the moment Vader claimed.

What? Why would I as Town complain if Bullish basically confirmed a Townie to me lol.


I didn't say you'd complain. You'd be making a huge fucking deal in the DP if attention was put on Vader. I did notice that you mentioned Vader was likely town based on your PM earlier in the DP, but it was a long while after that and a lot of sus directed at Vader before you made the point adamantly.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 9:15 PM (post #113)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 12:41 PM (post #92)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 1:07 PM (post #83)
Also, WF from ur POV can’t be town because he’s putting you + Pie as his scum team. That means he buys Luna as Cop but doesn’t buy you as Miller. It makes zero sense

Two things.

One, I've acknowledged in my responses to Luna that my read on Kohai may be wrong. Pie + Kohai or Pie + Vader could be the team from where I'm sitting, the only difference being the extra green check on Kohai that could be the result of his being the GF or having been Lawyered before being investigated by Luna.

Two, I'd like to understand how this "makes zero sense." A Cop doesn't make a Miller certain, and Pie knows that. We know scum were given a fake claim. We don't know what that fake claim was. As I've already said, if scum received a fake role claim, the Miller is more likely to be that fake claim than either Tree Stump or Dreamer. So explain what doesn't make sense.

So Miller is the fake claim that Vader/Kiggans had, but didn’t claim when they got on? That makes zero sense


The fact that Kiggans didn't SOP claim makes zero sense in general, but whether it's a fake claim or real, we know they didn't. We know they weren't very active at all in the day chat, so if they were scum, they likely weren't very active there, either. Vader claimed the moment he realized what his role was in DP2, whether it's real or fake.


That being said, the more we get into this, the less I believe that scum got a fake role claim. It's more likely scum received a fake character claim.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 8:45 PM (post #110)
Question: if pie is lying then how did he know someone visit them?

I’ll be back on later. Gonna go to the bar. Got a lot of stuff saved to go over.


Been over this. Read posts #65 and #85. Long and short of it, he likely didn’t know. He risked nothing by claiming he’d been visited. If no one had said anything, he could have claimed scum visited him.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/27/2026 at 8:18 PM (post #107)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 8:15 PM (post #106)
Realized I had an assumption I didn’t clarify in there, one that I think is warranted. I’m functioning from the assumption that either the Dreamer or the Cop are real, not both. If the Dreamer is real, it’s the only alignment investigative and Luna is lying. The same is true of the Cop.
So from your POV you’re saying either pie or Luna have to be scum. Which one is most likely and why?


I’ve all but said as much several times before. A Cop and a Dreamer in the same game with either an Even Night Follower or a Contact Counter seems absurd without giving scum so many roles to counter it that they’re effectively both useless, and all the more absurd as part of a potential set of 4 investigatives.


As for who I sus more at this point, I think I’ve made it clear that that’s Pie. I’ve pointed to several problems I have with his claim text and explained how his night actions do next to nothing to verify him. The whole “Miller affects my role” thing coming out of nowhere (I’m unable to verify it, Bullish says one of their roles has to be flipped for me to ask about it) at the end of the last DP didn’t help, seemed like an attempt to draw sus back to Luna. And I don’t buy that scum couldn’t figure out he was the Dreamer based on what he said last DP.


By contrast, while I also can’t verify Luna’s night actions, I have an easier time buying the text of his PM. His reads on Vader 2.0 have been largely consistent with someone who believes the Miller claim, despite him being an easy potential mislynch with no affiliation investigative roles claimed by the end of the last DP. And behaviorally, I’ve had a good deal of reason to believe what he’s said in previous DPs matches his town behavior. He’s definitely not town confirmed, but I can’t see a good case against him aside from pointing to some paranoia and frustration that is, at worst, NAI for Luna.

whiteflame

Realized I had an assumption I didn’t clarify in there, one that I think is warranted. I’m functioning from the assumption that either the Dreamer or the Cop are real, not both. If the Dreamer is real, it’s the only alignment investigative and Luna is lying. The same is true of the Cop.

whiteflame

I’m going to post more this evening (sorry for the delay), but I’d like to ask everyone: do you honestly think Bullish would essentially just give away the existence of a Miller in the PM of the only known player whose results are affected by said Miller? Seriously, it would be like my PM including wording that strongly implied the existence of a Ninja, except this also effectively confirms the existence of a player with an SOP claim.


To be clear, this does not make Vader’s claim sus, but I can’t believe Bullish would make this error and if he had, I can’t believe that Pie wouldn’t have made a huge fucking deal about it the moment Vader claimed.

whiteflame

Going to be busy for a couple of hours, I've got a synagogue board meeting. I'll be back to continue this later in the afternoon.

whiteflame
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 1:42 PM (post #93)
Also, WF is essentially claiming Tracker. His argument is that there can’t be 4 investigative roles, so Dreamer makes zero sense. But on the same foot, he’s saying Cop + Tracker + Banana’s role me 100% sense. Cop + Tracker + Banana or Cop/Tracker + Weak Dreamer + Banana seem more balanced?


See the above. Again, here's the layout:


Banana: Even Night Follower

Pie: Dreamer

Luna: Cop

Me: Contact Counter


I don't believe that all four of those are present in this game. No, a Contact Counter is not a Tracker, no matter how many times Pie keeps repeating that. And I'll note that the Follower and Contact Counter give distinct, non-alignment investigative results (type of role and number of people who visited/are visited by the target). Dreamer and Cop are the only roles with overlapping, alignment investigative results.

whiteflame



Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 1:38 PM (post #90)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 12:30 PM (post #85)
So, I have a lot of thoughts and I don't expect to get them out in a single post. I'm going to get out what I can now and come back to this later when I have a little more time and can respond.

To start, I want to note just how odd Pie's justification is. Honestly, when I first read he was the Dreamer, I half expected the justification to be some reference to Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. Dick. But what we got is stranger.

No, it says I’m smart but make mistakes. You’re the book, not me.


Got that, thanks.


He's the only one with an element of his justification that is a stated opinion of the mod (he says "Bullish says he loves his AI overlords), says it includes that AI is smart, and therefore... it's the Dreamer?

You’re conveniently forgetting the other piece.


What did I miss, exactly? Pretty sure I covered the full listed justification here and below.


I get that we're functioning under the assumption that there are roles in play, particularly the Miller, that could affect their results, but Dreamer doesn't scream a "smart" role and that would mean that Bullish literally wrote into the role that there are roles in game that can deceive it. It's literally a part of his justification. Has anyone ever seen a mod give away that kind of information solely to justify why a given character is a given role?

I’ve been consistent since last DP that there’s a reason why I believed Vader was town, and it has to do with my PM.


You've been consistent since post 322 last DP that your PM supports the existence of a Miller, yes. And I think the fact that your PM suggests the existence of a Miller is the first time I've ever seen a PM effectively give away the existence of another role. That's what I'm calling out.


Apart from that, in terms of its use, Pie hasn't given us any reason to believe his role is true. He "knew" he was visited back in NP1. Setting aside the possibility of a scum role that registers visits or Tracks a target, neither are necessary for this to be believable. As I said before, he could have just lied about knowing. Doing so got exactly what scum wanted by effectively forcing a claim out of Mag1c. I know I wasn't the only one who was confused by the decision to push Mag1c to claim, but for some reason, we've brushed that under the table as unimportant. Shocker, our claimed Doctor is now dead.

I’ve already explained this multiple times. It was a reaction test and a way to identify scum immediately. Mag1c being Doctor obviously sucked, but he was town, and I seem to recall both you and Luna still sussing him.


I basically town-locked him after I realized there weren't any other protective roles in game. As for your explanation, I'm saying I don't buy it.


As for his list of 3 this DP (which he only gave after everyone else had already claimed, so there was no chance he'd been visited, despite having heavily implied that he's the Dreamer), it's not particularly surprising to me. Both Luna and I have claimed investigative roles. Both put the Dreamer in question, especially with Banana's flip. Placing attention on us makes nothing but sense at this point since the decision almost necessarily comes down to which of the three of us is lying. Given repeated green checks on Kohai from both Luna and me, I don't think it's nearly as valuable as Kohai believes to include him in the Dream result.

You’re calling Luna town with your role + Banana’s role which is the strongest combination of the 4 roles we have. My role is the weakest out of all 4.


I'm buying the existence of 3 roles: Luna's, mine and Banana's. Mine is basically a much vaguer Tracker and Banana's role is every other night. And I just thoroughly disagree that a Dreamer is a weak role.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 1:07 PM (post #83)
Also, WF from ur POV can’t be town because he’s putting you + Pie as his scum team. That means he buys Luna as Cop but doesn’t buy you as Miller. It makes zero sense


Two things.


One, I've acknowledged in my responses to Luna that my read on Kohai may be wrong. Pie + Kohai or Pie + Vader could be the team from where I'm sitting, the only difference being the extra green check on Kohai that could be the result of his being the GF or having been Lawyered before being investigated by Luna.


Two, I'd like to understand how this "makes zero sense." A Cop doesn't make a Miller certain, and Pie knows that. We know scum were given a fake claim. We don't know what that fake claim was. As I've already said, if scum received a fake role claim, the Miller is more likely to be that fake claim than either Tree Stump or Dreamer. So explain what doesn't make sense.

whiteflame

Regarding the case that Athena was somehow a Cop pick from that list, recall that Mag1c was the sole protective role in this game. By this logic, based on a single line of text about "spotting traitors," we change the balance of the game dramatically based on Mag1c's NP0 decision. Town loses its protective role if he chooses Athena, trading it for multiple alignment investigative roles (either with Luna or with Pie, depending on who you believe). That's a big shift to assume based on a single sentence of flavor text.

whiteflame

So, I have a lot of thoughts and I don't expect to get them out in a single post. I'm going to get out what I can now and come back to this later when I have a little more time and can respond.


To start, I want to note just how odd Pie's justification is. Honestly, when I first read he was the Dreamer, I half expected the justification to be some reference to Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. Dick. But what we got is stranger.


He's the only one with an element of his justification that is a stated opinion of the mod (he says "Bullish says he loves his AI overlords), says it includes that AI is smart, and therefore... it's the Dreamer?


I get that we're functioning under the assumption that there are roles in play, particularly the Miller, that could affect their results, but Dreamer doesn't scream a "smart" role and that would mean that Bullish literally wrote into the role that there are roles in game that can deceive it. It's literally a part of his justification. Has anyone ever seen a mod give away that kind of information solely to justify why a given character is a given role?


Apart from that, in terms of its use, Pie hasn't given us any reason to believe his role is true. He "knew" he was visited back in NP1. Setting aside the possibility of a scum role that registers visits or Tracks a target, neither are necessary for this to be believable. As I said before, he could have just lied about knowing. Doing so got exactly what scum wanted by effectively forcing a claim out of Mag1c. I know I wasn't the only one who was confused by the decision to push Mag1c to claim, but for some reason, we've brushed that under the table as unimportant. Shocker, our claimed Doctor is now dead.


As for his list of 3 this DP (which he only gave after everyone else had already claimed, so there was no chance he'd been visited, despite having heavily implied that he's the Dreamer), it's not particularly surprising to me. Both Luna and I have claimed investigative roles. Both put the Dreamer in question, especially with Banana's flip. Placing attention on us makes nothing but sense at this point since the decision almost necessarily comes down to which of the three of us is lying. Given repeated green checks on Kohai from both Luna and me, I don't think it's nearly as valuable as Kohai believes to include him in the Dream result.

whiteflame
Whiteflame: 

Out of Pie/Vader, Pie/Kohai, and Vader/Kohai, which team do you think is most likely right now?

Do you think Kohai is actually town, or are you just saying his two checks make him difficult to lynch? Those aren't quite the same thing.


If I had to pick right now, it would probably be Pie/Vader. That in part comes down to an assumption about the role I think scum were given as a fake claim. I don’t see that being either Tree Stump or Dreamer. It’s possible scum just received a character, in which case that goes out the window.


There’s too many investigatives. Between you, me, Banana and Pie, that’s 4 and I don’t buy it. I do have some trouble buying that Pie would go to the lengths he did of saying that his Dreamer role supports the existence of a Miller knowing that his flip would make Vader sus, but it’s possible he was just banking on winning the game right here. The “validation” of his Dreamer role hasn’t struck me as particularly convincing. He’s played it such that he has had no risk of claiming he got results with a visit, and the whole “I was visited” line from last DP could easily have just been a shot in the dark aimed at either getting a claim (which he did) or appealing to an unknown scum visit.


And in answer to your last question, I’d say it’s that it makes him difficult to lynch. It’s always possible he’s just the GF and didn’t carry out the NK NP1, or that scum manipulated my night action to make it look like he hadn’t done anything, or any number of other possibilities that could explain those results. Given it’s either him or Vader and the latter at least has a role that makes sense to be in the game given either your or Pie’s role, it’s something I have to consider.

whiteflame

And now I'm off for the night. I can do some hashing out tomorrow and build my own set of reads. The only thing I'll say for now is that Bullish mentioned three roles (Hider, Commuter and Ascetic) without direct prompting that are clearly not in this game, so the notion that his mentioning a role suddenly makes it more likely to be in this game does not make sense to me. Bullish covering his bases and including every role that could theoretically be affected by a given role is not evidence that that role exists in game.