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whiteflame
Originally Posted by Vader on 9/23/2026 at 8:12 PM (post #40)
I don't like the way that Pie also claimed. Looked like he was getting some people to soft their claims that they had or actions but I do not think it is atypical of him to do that. I don't know what information he would specifically get.

My question is why didn't Magic go after Kohai. It was his strongest read besides me and he pivotted to someone that he was town reading by the end of the DP. I agree with Luna here and is a good point I didn't think about. I feel like he didn't play whatever he had, ideally, depending on his role.


Originally Posted by Vader on 9/23/2026 at 8:13 PM (post #42)
Also he had a hard town read on Thoth. If he was a protective role, why didn't he protect Thoth? I don't know if his read changed but when he launced his consistent top read was Thoth and I felt like if he makes the justification that he was trying to protect his biggest town read, he'd go for Thoth

If he's investigative, no reason he doesn't go Kohai or someone he had a read on like Luna


Seems like there's a lot to dig into with regards to both their choices. There are some oddities to Pie's choices, but I'm having more trouble making sense of Mag1c's as well. He's leaving the reveal to Pie for some reason, which bothers me.


I less get Thoh. He rode hard for him early stages and now feels like he's backing out of that read.

I smell a Thoth / Magic team tbh


Maybe, haven't been thinking on team makeups yet.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Thoth on 9/23/2026 at 7:39 PM (post #39)
Before I read up, I would like to ask whiteflame this question: Ignoring that Banana's ability was even-night, if someone had used it on you last night, which category of these would they have seen?

none, visiting, informational, protective, manipulative, killing, special.

You don't need to say which category specifically. I would be fine knowing if it's, for example, one of two or three categories. Actually, I won't scumread you for not answering at all, but, if you give the answer I expect, I'm townpiling you until I have reason not to. So ask yourself how much it means to you to have me townpile you.

Also, I'm curious what 'visiting' and 'special' are if not in the other four categories. I would not take this as proof of at least one of each kind being in the game, but I am curious how Bullish classifies them.


Considering that any answer I give will at least confirm that I am or am not a PR, I'm hesitant to answer this in the way you want, and I'm all the more hesitant given you're asking me and me alone for this information. Is there a reason I'm your focus?

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/23/2026 at 5:29 PM (post #34)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/23/2026 at 8:07 AM (post #20)
Alright, one of you visited me last night. I know who you are and you know who you are. Confess or be lynched.
How would you know who visited you and why would that make them scum automatically? You not being dead is a good sign already that it wasn't neccesarily a scum visit, and if you were roleblocked you wouldn't know who visited you. So calling attention to this like that is weird if you are town.


Depends if he knows the nature of the visit, though Pie hasn't elaborated yet on what he knows, so I get the issue. If he just knows he was visited, it's a weird choice.



Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/23/2026 at 5:39 PM (post #35)
Okay, I think the Pie situation is actually worth lookingt at for a minute. Pie said someone visited him and basically challenged that person to claim it. Magic has now admitted that it was him. I'm not saying that automatically makes Magic scum. Obviously there are non-scum reasons to visit someone. But I do think this is something we should actually understand before just moving on from it. Magic, what exactly did you do to Pie last night?
And more importantly, why Pie?
Because if you had some reason to specifically target Pie, I want to know what that reason was. Was it because of his behavior in DP1? Or was it something else?
I also think Pie's reaction deserves scrutiny. He immediately knew someone had visited him and made a pretty aggressive public demand for that person to claim. Now that we know it was Magic, I'm interested in whether that reaction makes more sense depending on what Magic actually did.


I'd like to interrogate this more as well. I don't really understand either of their responses to this situation so far, Pie for not clarifying what he feels is so sus about being visited and Mag1c for not elaborating on anything regarding his night action or choice of target. We know he's a PR now, doesn't necessarily mean he should full claim, but the complete lack of insight into what he did and why he did it is puzzling.


Separately, I think I'm going to spend more time looking at Kohai today.

My current problem with Kohai is less "he hasn't posted enough" and more that I don't think I've seen a particularly convincing explanation for his progression through DP1. I'd like him to actually lay out who he thinks is scum and why rather than just reacting to whoever is currently being discussed.
I'm still not dropping Magic. My gut is still there, and his reaction to my questions today hasn't exactly made that feeling go away.
But I don't want to spend another entire DP arguing with him while everyone else gets ignored.


I'm not setting aside Kohai entirely, but at least based on what I've seen behaviorally, he's not a priority for me right now. That might change, particularly with a good set of reads.


So right now I want:
Magic explain the Pie visit.
Pie explain what you expected the visitor to be doing and why you thought they should confess.
Kohai give me your actual current scum pool and explain the progression that got you there.

Then I'll decide where I want my vote.


Seems reasonable to me.

whiteflame
Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/23/2026 at 3:24 PM (post #31)
Do you have anything to elaborate on from yesterday?


Hmmm... seems like you're insinuating something should be forthcoming. I'll see how Thoth responds.



Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/23/2026 at 3:29 PM (post #32)
claim option fmpov

Lunatic - top scum read
Thoth - coverage play, for clarity on yesterday
Kohai- going along with Pie’s plan


I get Luna because you were quite clear on your issues with him already. I kind of get Thoth. Less clear on Kohai.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/23/2026 at 3:00 PM (post #26)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/23/2026 at 10:07 AM (post #20)
Alright, one of you visited me last night. I know who you are and you know who you are. Confess or be lynched.
that would be me.


That's one mystery solved. Not sure why you'd say that and then not provide any details as to why, but at least you did say it.


So with that in mind, it doesnt change a thing about how I see you.

The accusatory language in that last sentence is hilarious. Vader was my top scumread, ofc I was going to push that. And yeah you flew up my rankings over Whiteflame… why I would I push my 3rd choice when Vader and Lunatic are right there?

this questioning is so fake.


I agree with Luna, this does seem more defensive than I think was warranted. You were hardly the only one on Vader, and he did ask questions along similar lines of everyone, whether you think they're "fake" or not.


Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/23/2026 at 3:19 PM (post #30)

Originally Posted by Vader on 9/23/2026 at 5:53 AM (post #14)
My character is false vacuum decay. It’s a fake a quantum state that is meta stable and because I am false I am Miller

I can’t give you free town cred for this bc if someone else were miller, they’d’ve SOPed by now, meaning mafia knew it was a free thing to claim… but only if someone replaced in.

This is not a scumcase. Just not giving free towncred due to the specific circumstances.


That's fair, though I don't think Vader takes this kind of risk, personally.

whiteflame

Apologies in advance for the brevity, I really am short on time today, but I didn’t want to just let this sit.


Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/23/2026 at 4:06 AM (post #7)
Whiteflame, I want to hear more from you today because I don't feel like I have a great read on where your head was at during DP1.


Fair.


You had some early thoughts on Pie/Kohai and the claim discussions. After everything that happened in DP1, what is your current read on those slots? Did anyone move significantly for you?


I’m still wary of Kohai, though I wouldn’t say he’s my strongest scumread at this point, and I don’t think we have the leeway we had last to just eliminate him and see what happens. Pie I’m a little less sure of, but I’ll let him cook on the visit front and see where he’s going with it.


What is the strongest reason you would have for voting someone today? Not just who feels off, but what specific behavior makes you think they are more likely scum than town if any? Is there anyone you feel you have a stronger townread on now compared to the end of DP1? And what specifically earned that?


Right now, I wouldn’t say I have a strong reason to vote anyone, more that I have reasons to look in different directions than I did last DP. Essentially, I’ve just narrowed my POE. Part of that comes down to a re-read of Kohai’s DP1 posts. Maybe I’m just not used to his scum behavior, but the defeatism I’m seeing towards the end of the DP looks a lot more like the usual town behavior I’ve seen from him. Vader straight claiming Miller knowing that that would draw attention to him makes me think he’s likelier to be town than not. I still think much of your argument last DP pegs you as town, so that leaves Pie, Mag1c and Thoth as people I’m mainly considering.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/23/2026 at 10:07 AM (post #20)
Alright, one of you visited me last night. I know who you are and you know who you are. Confess or be lynched.


Wasn't me.

whiteflame

Well... shit. Even night Follower would've been pretty great to have, but here we are. Given how widely townread Banana was, I guess that's not surprising, but it's pretty disheartening.


And at least Vader isn't gone from the game entirely. Good to have you back in, man.


I'm going to bed. It's been a long day and going to be longer tomorrow. I'm going to reconsider a lot of my reads this DP, but if anyone has pertinent information from the NP, now would be a good time to provide it.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/22/2026 at 1:25 PM (post #350)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/22/2026 at 12:17 PM (post #348)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/22/2026 at 11:15 AM (post #346)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/22/2026 at 12:10 PM (post #343)
Before we end the phase I really think you should give some sort of soft. You are absolutely the only person besides kiggans who hasn't given any sort of soft, which defeats the purpose of a mass soft. Are you afraid to lock yourself into something?

We shouldn’t have mass softed in the first place. And Kiggans definitely should go first
Why not? You seem pretty pro "getting claims". A soft just locks people in into something they can't back out of without giving away real information.

Claims are solid, softs aren’t, but fine idrc, mine can be good or bad depending on who you ask

Still, gives us something to work with. Interesting.



Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/22/2026 at 1:25 PM (post #351)
VTL Vader

Guess we'll see how this shakes out.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/22/2026 at 1:16 PM (post #347)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/22/2026 at 11:11 AM (post #344)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/22/2026 at 1:02 PM (post #329)
We've got an hour left. Is everyone comfortable with where their are votes out? Two similarly sized wagons is interesting, probably a good thing overall, but I want to get some clarification from people about their votes and if this is where they are comfortable staying.

Good timing, I just caught back up.

I think both wagons have decent logic to them and, frankly, neither Vader nor Kohai is that likely to have any form of confirmation, but at least Vader has a role that could theoretically be "confirmed," particularly with the possibility of stopping an NK. I can't say anything from Kohai has swung me on my decision to VTL him, and much as I get his frustration, he should know that he'd be a target this game given he was just scum last game. So the decision not to full claim reads a more scummy to me.

And while I've kind of been giving JenKiggans the benefit of the doubt, their continued absence is making me question it. I don't want to disincentivize them from playing in future games, but I can only take that justification so far.

As far as Jen goes, I think we focus on them dp2 pretty heavily. Don't think we have time to really steer a wagon there, but I agree Jen is 100% a problem based on the activity.


Seems not, would've taken a CFD at this point anyway.

whiteflame
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/22/2026 at 1:02 PM (post #329)
We've got an hour left. Is everyone comfortable with where their are votes out? Two similarly sized wagons is interesting, probably a good thing overall, but I want to get some clarification from people about their votes and if this is where they are comfortable staying.


Good timing, I just caught back up.


I think both wagons have decent logic to them and, frankly, neither Vader nor Kohai is that likely to have any form of confirmation, but at least Vader has a role that could theoretically be "confirmed," particularly with the possibility of stopping an NK. I can't say anything from Kohai has swung me on my decision to VTL him, and much as I get his frustration, he should know that he'd be a target this game given he was just scum last game. So the decision not to full claim reads a more scummy to me.


And while I've kind of been giving JenKiggans the benefit of the doubt, their continued absence is making me question it. I don't want to disincentivize them from playing in future games, but I can only take that justification so far.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Bullish on 9/22/2026 at 11:01 AM (post #282)
Official Vote Count

vader (3/5) - magic, Banana, Thoth,
magic (2/5) - lunatic, vader
Kohai (2/5) - Pie, whiteflame
Pie (1/5) - Kohai,

Not voting: JenKiggans, whiteflame

DP1 ends in ~3 hours, at 09/22 14:00 EST


I'm both voting and not voting? A paradox!

whiteflame
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/22/2026 at 10:52 AM (post #277)
Ya I don’t like the claim from Vader at all. The justification lines up for sure, but 2x Roleblocker could just as easily be the scum role with the Solar Flare as the potential fake character claim.


That's crossed my mind as well. I believe you said it earlier, but we only know that scum received "at most 1 fake role/character claim." So the options they have are likely limited.

whiteflame
Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/22/2026 at 10:37 AM (post #274)
I won’t claim character or justification. I will however claim tree stump (now you know why I was hesitant to claim). Unfortunately y’all can ML me for the upteenth time but y’all are stuck with me the rest of the game


What's the point in holding this information back, exactly? If you're telling the truth, scum won't kill you during the NP, so your only goal at this point should be to prevent the ML. I'm not stuck on you for claiming Tree Stump, but if you expect me to ignore the choice to limit your claim like this when you've already given away your role, you're going to be disappointed.

whiteflame
Originally Posted by Vader on 9/22/2026 at 10:34 AM (post #271)
It’s fine. I had a feeling it was going to be me because I ended up scum reading Magic for the same reasons Luna did in his read unironically as I going through the DP so figured it would. I’m in a role transition that I found out I would be getting last week and need to go through a lot of training. Trying to find time to type


Hopefully it's at least a good transition, though adjusting and training for it is clearly drawing a lot of your focus. Hope it goes well.

whiteflame

I'm willing to place the focus on Kohai for now. I think Vader's claim is at least believable, though the existence of a fake claim for scum leaves the question open. I'll leave it to others to decide if there's more there than I can see.


VTL Kohai

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Vader on 9/22/2026 at 10:27 AM (post #266)
I am a solar flare. My role is a 2x roleblocker. Do with that as you will. Gonna be slammed all day today
The logic was that if a flare was big enough it can fry EMPs causing a blackout


Interesting, so a town RB. A solar flare does fit pretty well, and it is both scientific and kind of boring, so it tracks with what you've said so far. Sorry you're slammed dude.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/22/2026 at 10:01 AM (post #258)

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/21/2026 at 10:15 PM (post #212)
Still townreading you but I'm really not liking your disappearance when you don't really have to defend yourself.

If town doesn’t want to follow me, then tell me what to do. I’ve said 50 times to get Kohai to full claim, and crickets. We’ve been going in circles all DP, just like I said we would.


At this point, I'm fine with either getting a claim from Kohai or Vader. Much as I don't agree with a lot of Thoth's reads, I do agree that it's best to give JenKiggans some space to post and participate more and I wouldn't support just pressuring or eliminating them.


As for Mag1c vs. Luna, if I had to pick one to pressure, it'd be Mag1c, but he's a secondary priority at the moment. Looking back through his posts, I can at least get some indication of why he changed his read up on you in particular. It's not perfect and I think Luna makes some valid points about his giving himself room to use flips strategically, but I'm ready to say we can just cross that bridge if/when we come to it.

whiteflame
Before reading #224, I had a mild townlean on whiteflame for reasons that I do not want to get into. whiteflame: if my guess is on my point here, it could be worth thinking about how you said your apocalypse is not one that a lot of people prep for. I would like Banana to think about this too, based on her soft in #244. I am not so enthused about your readwall in #224. I don't see JenKiggans citing his being used to IRL Mafia as 'pushback'. I think you should know that Banana can give great readwalls as scum. See Solo Leveling again. Pie has definitely pushed this hard this early many times unless I have Alzheimer's. That observation is so out-of-character for you that it's almost Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf. I absolutely think Mag1c could and would distance and quickly undistance himself from his partner by a country mile if he thought it were the right play. I felt that #168 was scummy, whereas I think you are claiming you see it as townie. I townlean Mag1c, but it's purely a gutread. In other words, I disagree with a lot of your statements and pretty much all of your stated reads.


I appreciate the in-depth explanation, though a lot of this just incorrectly interprets my reads.


To start, my point on Banana wasn't "she has a good readwall so I'm townreading her," it was that I saw her actively pursuing her susses with a lot of questions as well. I'm aware Banana can provide reads that look good in DP1. She's thoroughly capable. However, at least based on my experience with her, I don't think she's likely to go the extra mile and pursue these lines of questioning if she's scum. The fact that she hasn't revisited them much is making me question that, but only a little.


Yes, I would classify JenKiggan's decision to introduce themselves with a post saying that they are used to IRL Mafia and will have trouble reading behavior from posts alone as a bit of "pushback" on trying to provide behavioral reads. If you want to call it something else, be my guest, but it does sound like a bit of an excuse to get out of providing more reads.


I didn't say Pie doesn't push hard early, I said he's "rarely pushed this hard this early," i.e. he's usually not a substantial focus in DP1 for being behaviorally off. That's been my experience, don't know what yours has been.


I'm not convinced that scum Mag1c would draw more attention to himself by distancing and undistancing from his partner, especially since pressure was already coming off of Pie around that time. If the goal was to establish that distance early as a means of separating them, I think he'd keep it up when others are questioning it. You can disagree with that read if you want, but it's my perspective.


And no, I can't say I agree with you that #168 is scummy, and it's gotten less scummy the longer this argument has gone on about Mag1c changing his reads. I just don't buy that scum Luna doubles and triples down on his view that there's something wrong here, especially given how much he's focused on a pattern rather than individual posts. It seems like your reasoning for scumreading that post runs contrary to even your understanding of Luna's usual scum play, so I don't get your perspective.

whiteflame

Anyway, I'm going to leave it there for tonight. No services tomorrow, so I'll be on early and digging into ISOs in the morning.

whiteflame

Alright, I'm finally caught up. I'm not going to give detailed reads because that will require me to do at least some ISO work going through everyone's posts, but I will give basic thoughts about where I see everyone currently. It's subject to change, but then what isn't?


JenKiggans2026 - Null. I hope whatever landed you in the ER is largely resolved. Can't read much into your thoughts from your few posts so far, just not a lot of reads. Stating that he's used to live in-person Mafia as pushback to his providing more insights earlier is rubbing me the wrong way, but could be true, so null for now.


Banana - Lean town. Strong opening set of posts with a serious set of reads and a lot of detailed questions. If it's a ploy, she's gotten really good at it because this looks like solid scumhunting and analysis.


Thoth - Slight town. Largely comes from the same place as many have mentioned with the apparent error in his PM, just doesn't seem like something he'd mention if he's scum. That isn't because I think he wouldn't draw attention to himself (he often does as scum), but because this doesn't match the usual pattern I expect to see from him as scum. I may elaborate later, but this seems more like townie Thoth.


Pie - Slight town/null. More of a vibe check that's leaning towards the former. A lot of NAI behaviors should put me solidly in the latter camp, but his response to pressure is tugging me towards the townread. He's rarely pushed this hard this early, but usually pushes back harder on giving his claim, something I'd expect more from him as scum. Still, that doesn't feel like a strong behavioral cue, so I'm leaving him a bit on the fence.


Kohai - Null. I was kind of sussing him earlier in the DP when he said Pie was targeting him because they were teammates as scum last game, which seemed a little strange, but it's also the kind of paranoia I've seen from Kohai before. The current read on the potential Mag1c/Pie team seems a little unlikely (I don't think Mag1c creates distance with his partner and then drops it that quickly), but I can at least understand his concern about each. I end up landing in the middle after swinging a bit.


Vader - Slight scum. Don't love the FoS On Kiggans and a little wary of him piggy-backing on Luna's reasoning to put a vote on Mag1c without much reasoning. Feels a little opportunistic on both fronts, given Kiggan's relative absence and Mag1c already becoming a major focus.


Luna - Lean town. I've often agreed with his reads, but his thoughts on Mag1c in post #168 swayed me more than usual. I can see how he derived his conclusions from a pattern of behavior and read choices that he sees from Mag1c. I want to dig more into that read and see if I come to the same conclusions independently, but the pushback from Mag1c on each of those changes to his reads hasn't looked great.


Mag1c - Null. I'd like to go through all of his reads and see if I can understand the changes he's made over the course of the DP. Setting that aside for now, I'm a little baffled by the sudden influx of posts just before he thought the DP would end and the vote on Kiggans that accompanied that sudden flurry. Possible he was just frustrated by what looked like a no lynch in progress, or it could just be an effort to get the last word in before the DP closes and look like he's the only one who cares. Haven't decided which.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Thoth on 9/20/2026 at 5:22 PM (post #86)
Re: post #68. I have never heard of anyone actively prepping for my apocalypse in the way that doomers get ready for nuclear war or a pandemic.


Alright. Same’s true of mine.



Originally Posted by Thoth on 9/20/2026 at 8:01 PM (post #87)
Also, upon re-reading my PM, I just realized that it is factually incorrect.


The PM itself? Might want to touch base with Bullish about that.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/20/2026 at 4:44 PM (post #84)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/20/2026 at 2:14 PM (post #81)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/20/2026 at 12:44 PM (post #76)
Yeah. There's zero chance pie is town here.

Anyway I'm gonna get ready for yom kippur

Is there though? Being a bit aggressive early on isn’t unusual for him regardless of alignment.
True. But he's obviously targeting me because we were scum mates last game


Not really AI from my perspective.


May you have a meaningful and reflective Yom Kippur.
Amen and may you also have a meaningful and reflective Yom Kippur.
whiteflame


Originally Posted by Vader on 9/20/2026 at 4:34 PM (post #82)
My football team lost and my star QB got hurt won’t be responding til later


Yep, rough man. Pulling for your Bears to do some work this season, but with that QB injury, it’s going to be tough.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/20/2026 at 12:44 PM (post #76)
Yeah. There's zero chance pie is town here.

Anyway I'm gonna get ready for yom kippur


Is there though? Being a bit aggressive early on isn’t unusual for him regardless of alignment.


May you have a meaningful and reflective Yom Kippur.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/20/2026 at 12:33 PM (post #72)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/19/2026 at 8:26 PM (post #41)

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/19/2026 at 8:59 PM (post #39)
Vote Kohai plz. Otherwise it’s going to be CFD and town may not get a lynch on scum like last game lol

Dude, I don’t get why you’re pushing this hard for this, especially given the DP extension.

Gotta generate the activity early on. We’ve been sitting on our asses early on. If I have to be the bad guy to do that, that’s fine


Fair, though I can’t say I’ve seen good reason to call out Kohai yet. Might just be that I’m giving him too much of a pass for Yom Kippur-related absences.

whiteflame


Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/20/2026 at 10:07 AM (post #68)

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 9/20/2026 at 9:53 AM (post #67)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/19/2026 at 8:26 PM (post #37)
Well, we have to start somewhere, so let’s do some light soft claiming. If people want to follow me on this, you’re welcome to do so, just thinking we say what medium our apocalypse is from.

Mine is from a book
spaced out and didn’t even type what I was going to type oops

I’d say too many people are afraid of mine. A pair of different ways it could go; I know of at least one couple in my town who actually spend time preparing for it.


Alright, that limits yours pretty cleanly. Does your PM cite specific examples from fiction or is it more generalized? Mine is very specific.