There’s no world where WF can reconcile you being scum, and the fact he is shows that he’s keeping his options open.
There’s no world where WF can reconcile you being scum, and the fact he is shows that he’s keeping his options open.
I’ll also note that I softed Dreamer very early DP2. And I stated that I townread Vader2 because of my PM very early and the only way Vader2 was scum was if Bullish was troll
https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/88/apocalypse-mafia---dp2?commentId=6ab47c542a2feda0d8972421
Both WF and Luna were the last to claim, so they had their pick of roles to claim.
21 hours left
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 7:13 PM (post #105)
I’m going to post more this evening (sorry for the delay), but I’d like to ask everyone: do you honestly think Bullish would essentially just give away the existence of a Miller in the PM of the only known player whose results are affected by said Miller? Seriously, it would be like my PM including wording that strongly implied the existence of a Ninja, except this also effectively confirms the existence of a player with an SOP claim.
But if Bullish have Miller as fake claim, why does Kiggans not SOP claim it with Pie as partner?
To be clear, this does not make Vader’s claim sus, but I can’t believe Bullish would make this error and if he had, I can’t believe that Pie wouldn’t have made a huge fucking deal about it the moment Vader claimed.
What? Why would I as Town complain if Bullish basically confirmed a Townie to me lol.
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 12:41 PM (post #92)
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 1:07 PM (post #83)
Also, WF from ur POV can’t be town because he’s putting you + Pie as his scum team. That means he buys Luna as Cop but doesn’t buy you as Miller. It makes zero sense
Two things.
One, I've acknowledged in my responses to Luna that my read on Kohai may be wrong. Pie + Kohai or Pie + Vader could be the team from where I'm sitting, the only difference being the extra green check on Kohai that could be the result of his being the GF or having been Lawyered before being investigated by Luna.
Two, I'd like to understand how this "makes zero sense." A Cop doesn't make a Miller certain, and Pie knows that. We know scum were given a fake claim. We don't know what that fake claim was. As I've already said, if scum received a fake role claim, the Miller is more likely to be that fake claim than either Tree Stump or Dreamer. So explain what doesn't make sense.
So Miller is the fake claim that Vader/Kiggans had, but didn’t claim when they got on? That makes zero sense
I’ll respond later to WF/Luna in a bit
Also, WF is essentially claiming Tracker. His argument is that there can’t be 4 investigative roles, so Dreamer makes zero sense. But on the same foot, he’s saying Cop + Tracker + Banana’s role me 100% sense. Cop + Tracker + Banana or Cop/Tracker + Weak Dreamer + Banana seem more balanced?
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/27/2026 at 12:32 PM (post #87)
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/27/2026 at 10:37 AM (post #77)
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/27/2026 at 11:26 AM (post #73)
It doesn’t tell them much to leave me alive going into LYLO. I also don’t think they thought I was dreamer especially considering how I said a Miller made sense. Why would a Dreamer say that.
Why would anything other than a dreamer know about being visited and also have something where a miller could effect it?
Dreamers usually don’t interact with Millers. I’ve never seen it interact with a Miller.
So then what were your talking about when you said the miller made sense with you?
Bullish specifically wrote in my PM that I am influenced by Millers, which is really odd. Doesn’t make sense for mod to put that. It’s never how Dreamers have historically worked
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/27/2026 at 12:30 PM (post #85)
So, I have a lot of thoughts and I don't expect to get them out in a single post. I'm going to get out what I can now and come back to this later when I have a little more time and can respond.
To start, I want to note just how odd Pie's justification is. Honestly, when I first read he was the Dreamer, I half expected the justification to be some reference to Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. Dick. But what we got is stranger.
No, it says I’m smart but make mistakes. You’re the book, not me.
He's the only one with an element of his justification that is a stated opinion of the mod (he says "Bullish says he loves his AI overlords), says it includes that AI is smart, and therefore... it's the Dreamer?
You’re conveniently forgetting the other piece.
I get that we're functioning under the assumption that there are roles in play, particularly the Miller, that could affect their results, but Dreamer doesn't scream a "smart" role and that would mean that Bullish literally wrote into the role that there are roles in game that can deceive it. It's literally a part of his justification. Has anyone ever seen a mod give away that kind of information solely to justify why a given character is a given role?
I’ve been consistent since last DP that there’s a reason why I believed Vader was town, and it has to do with my PM.
Apart from that, in terms of its use, Pie hasn't given us any reason to believe his role is true. He "knew" he was visited back in NP1. Setting aside the possibility of a scum role that registers visits or Tracks a target, neither are necessary for this to be believable. As I said before, he could have just lied about knowing. Doing so got exactly what scum wanted by effectively forcing a claim out of Mag1c. I know I wasn't the only one who was confused by the decision to push Mag1c to claim, but for some reason, we've brushed that under the table as unimportant. Shocker, our claimed Doctor is now dead.
I’ve already explained this multiple times. It was a reaction test and a way to identify scum immediately. Mag1c being Doctor obviously sucked, but he was town, and I seem to recall both you and Luna still sussing him.
As for his list of 3 this DP (which he only gave after everyone else had already claimed, so there was no chance he'd been visited, despite having heavily implied that he's the Dreamer), it's not particularly surprising to me. Both Luna and I have claimed investigative roles. Both put the Dreamer in question, especially with Banana's flip. Placing attention on us makes nothing but sense at this point since the decision almost necessarily comes down to which of the three of us is lying. Given repeated green checks on Kohai from both Luna and me, I don't think it's nearly as valuable as Kohai believes to include him in the Dream result.
You’re calling Luna town with your role + Banana’s role which is the strongest combination of the 4 roles we have. My role is the weakest out of all 4.
Also, WF from ur POV can’t be town because he’s putting you + Pie as his scum team. That means he buys Luna as Cop but doesn’t buy you as Miller. It makes zero sense
Read my theory about Mag1c having the Cop with Athena and Kohai’s reading of Mag1c’s PM. It’s really telling.
I think the dead giveaway for WF being scum is that he’s specifically calling a Pie + Vader team. That implies that he believes Kohai AND Luna are town. If Luna is town, it makes sense to have a Miller in the game.
Here, he’s specifically calling it out as fake. This is a problem for him though. If Miller was the fake claim, I either SOP it immediately or make my partner do it. If Kiggans was my partner, I would’ve told him to SOP it. Makes it far more believable. But he didn’t, Vader2 did at the end. And I think everyone had also said something in DP1 before Kiggans even came on, so I would’ve told him to take Miller immediately.
I also promised I would do wagonomics. Look at DP1:
Official Vote Count
vader (4/5) - Banana, Thoth, lunatic, Kohai
Kohai (4/5) - Pie, whiteflame, magic, Vader
Not voting: JenKiggans,
Luna and WF split on each wagon. Lends more credence to Luna/WF.
Got questions for all of yall.
Pie:
If you're town, who are the two scum right now, and why? I want an actual pairing, not just a POE.
Right now, I’m 85% on WF being scum. My top scumread. Vader I buy as town. That leaves you and Kohai. Right now it’s 65-35 you vs Kohai as second scum. Kohai made a great point about the way the PM was written + Athena makes perfect sense as Cop vs you. My Dreamer is hella weak to begin with considering Millers can be on there.
If someone else, say me, was in your shoes and asked someone who visited them np1, would you be suspicious of them?
For you, it would be NAI. You’d do it as scum and town. Everyone else is on spectrum, but closer to town read.
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/27/2026 at 11:26 AM (post #73)
It doesn’t tell them much to leave me alive going into LYLO. I also don’t think they thought I was dreamer especially considering how I said a Miller made sense. Why would a Dreamer say that.
Why would anything other than a dreamer know about being visited and also have something where a miller could effect it?
Dreamers usually don’t interact with Millers. I’ve never seen it interact with a Miller.
Bullish said that he chooses someone that is guilty as one person, and the rest are randomized. If Kohai is town, that means exactly you + WF are scum. Cause Vader investigates guilty. But more likely, the odds are 50/50 that one of you is scum, and that leaves Kohai as scum.
Doesn't that mean both scum can be on your results?
Yes, and I’m strongly considering it.
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/27/2026 at 2:38 AM (post #60)
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/26/2026 at 8:23 PM (post #36)
From my POV, it’s not Vader because Bullish specifically mentioned Miller in my PM. And with my Dream, it means that it’s EXACTLY Luna/WF or Luna/WF + Kohai, but the odds of Kohai being scum are the highest statistically
Can you explain the kohai part better? My brain is not understanding how you are arriving there...
Bullish said that he chooses someone that is guilty as one person, and the rest are randomized. If Kohai is town, that means exactly you + WF are scum. Cause Vader investigates guilty. But more likely, the odds are 50/50 that one of you is scum, and that leaves Kohai as scum.
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/27/2026 at 2:36 AM (post #59)
Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 9/26/2026 at 8:21 PM (post #35)
Character: AI Takeover
Role: Dreamer
Justification: Bullish says he loves his AI overlords. AI is super smart and basically knows everything but still can be very wrong. This Dreamer.
Assuming I’m not visited, I will receive a list of 3 names, at least one of which is scum. Bullish mentioned that my ability is affected by modifiers such as Miller and Godfather.
I asked him how the modifier would even work. He said this (paraphrased): he will take one player who inherently investigates guilty then he will randomly take 2 other names from remaining pool.
Thats how I knew I was visited NP1. I received a list of 3 names last night: Luna, Vader, Whiteflame.
Yeah I did suspect you would claim dreamer. I am not a fan of how you handled your role though, like at all. I still struggle to wrap my mind around why a dreamer would claim they were visited, that made it obvious what you were early and that mafia were just okay with you living despite you making it obvious what you were. Not to mention the overlap there is between a cop and dreamer on investigation power.
It doesn’t tell them much to leave me alive going into LYLO. I also don’t think they thought I was dreamer especially considering how I said a Miller made sense. Why would a Dreamer say that.
If you are town though, mafia will 100% have an answer to this, I guess miller is accounted for, but I wouldn't be surprised at all about a godfather or lawyer/framer.
They definitely have some visiting role. No question.
Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/26/2026 at 10:34 PM (post #56)
My biggest fear is still a Luna / wf team. Noting from mag1c’s flip
Jesus - (Jesus is known for curing lepers through miracles, but not for spotting traitors. You are the doctor.)
I wonder if one of tbe other gods would have e been the cop
I was thinking the same thing. Athena makes so much sense as the Cop. And even if Mag1c didn’t choose Cop, we have my Dreamer that could sort stuff out. We just got unlucky that Mag1c visited me.
Also the fact that BOTH WF/Luna cleared you is interesting
Originally Posted by Kohai on 9/26/2026 at 9:55 PM (post #49)
WF’s Ice-IX from Cat’s Cradle stands out to me. That character + their role sticks out like a sore thumb among the players who’ve claimed and flipped
Hold on. His claim is basically a Tracker. Think about it. If he tracks someone to no one, it’s a 2. If he tracks someone to someone else it’s a 3.
1) Kohai/WF
2) Kohai/Vader
3) Kohai/Luna
4) WF/Vader
5) WF/Luna
6) Luna/Vader
Im going take Vader out since only way he’s scum is if Bullish gave it as fake claim AND specifically wrote about it in my PM.
That leaves:
1) Kohai/WF
2) Kohai/Luna
3) WF/Luna
Luna and I have a pseudo-CC, especially with Banana’s flipped role. Luna investigated WF and Kohai innocent, which is interesting cause even he doesn’t believe they’re both necessarily innocent. I’m going to have to iso him. Mag1c also heavily sussed him:
WF has a very interesting role. A key note is that he’s missing a justification. I’m curious how that role fits his character.
Kohai, has 2 green checks on him from Luna/WF. He’s also highly likely to be scum based on my dreamer results. It’s possible that he’s the GF or Lawyer with that. Treestump sounds like it’s up Luna/WF’s ally. The delay in claiming is also interesting.
Going to do some wagonomics now
There has to be a solve here one sec
Originally Posted by Lunatic on 9/26/2026 at 6:11 PM (post #12)
Well I was hoping for some solid results last night, but nothing. I am Nuclear War, MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). I am the cop. Justification is all about deterrence cold war era doctrine that says if 1 party uses nukes, the other will retaliate in kind and both parties will be destroyed. Maintaining nuclear deterrence depended on intelligence, early warning systems, and the ability to identify an enemy's actions before responses were made which is why I am cop. Thought the justification was kind of a stretch at first until I seen other people's justifications lol.
Night One I investigated Whiteflame, Night Two I investigated Kohai.
Both are innocent.
I am going to assume mafia have some sort of counter to Cop, so take these with a grain of salt.
Why did you choose WF and Kohai each night
Originally Posted by whiteflame on 9/26/2026 at 5:22 PM (post #6)
Alright, cards on the table:
My role is called a Contact Counter. The way it works is that I target someone, and I get a count for the number of people who are in their contact chain. My visit counts towards that chain. So, for example, if I used it on myself and no one targeted me, it's a chain of 1. If I used it on someone else who didn't visit anyone, it's a chain of 2. If my target does visit someone, it's a chain of 3. I got a whole list of possible results based on various interactions after asking several questions of Bullish, so if people want to know them, I can go through it.
The long and short of it: I used my night actions on Kohai NP1 and Vader NP2. I chose two players who claimed roles that did not visit, since picking a target who did visit someone else would just confirm that they had visited someone, not who they visited or why. Both Kohai and Vader had chains of two, meaning that, absent any fuckery, I confirmed that Kohai did not visit anyone NP1 and Vader did not visit anyone NP2.
Very interesting claim. I would like to know what you asked Bullish and what his answer was
From my POV, it’s not Vader because Bullish specifically mentioned Miller in my PM. And with my Dream, it means that it’s EXACTLY Luna/WF or Luna/WF + Kohai, but the odds of Kohai being scum are the highest statistically
Character: AI Takeover
Role: Dreamer
Justification: Bullish says he loves his AI overlords. AI is super smart and basically knows everything but still can be very wrong. This Dreamer.
Assuming I’m not visited, I will receive a list of 3 names, at least one of which is scum. Bullish mentioned that my ability is affected by modifiers such as Miller and Godfather.
I asked him how the modifier would even work. He said this (paraphrased): he will take one player who inherently investigates guilty then he will randomly take 2 other names from remaining pool.
Thats how I knew I was visited NP1. I received a list of 3 names last night: Luna, Vader, Whiteflame.
Alright I’m here