Lunatic

Ty lol

vtl Alyssa

Okay now that Alyssa has tested her ability time to point out her scum slip.

Roles are activated on recruitment. Her popular should only be active in her being succesfully recruited per her own words. She said only her second ability works via recruitment. I didn’t recruit her. So if Wylted didn’t recruit her she lied.

Discuss.

@wylted did you recruit Alyssa?

Vote count?

any thoughts on above

What specifically?

The copy pasta thing you did? I have thoughts but I want to wait til we test popular before getting into them

Vtl Alyssa to test popular

Looks like we know the theme split

Can I just say that I hope this game is the start of a new trend of higher activity levels and signup counts.

Me too. There was a day where we had sign ups like this all the time, but it was so long ago I forgot what it feels like to be in a truly active and thriving game. It's nice.

I started the game with a list of 3 players (Alyssa, Helz, Rex) and was told that one of them was Jinwoo. Mikal said that anyone could show up in the list except for me and guild leaders. None of them stand out as super likely, but if I had to put numbers on it, I'd say 50% Rex, 30% Alyssa, 20% you.

Was there anything in your pm to suggest Jin Woo could be either good or bad?

Solid town: Banana, Wryly

Can you explain how these are your top two town reads?

Lean town: Mestari, Alyssa, Mag1c

Curious about these as well, considering you spent a considerable amount of time saying alyssa was sus for defending you.

We shall see you in Valhalla brother!

Well reguardless of result we can view Whiteflame and Thoth as not aligned from this post.. That has value post flip

I had the same thought, but I am hesitant to jump to that conclusion for a couple reasons. The obvious being that by the time whiteflame joined the thoth pressure, there was already a considerable amount of pressure on thoth where you could reasonably assume mafia would cut their losses and bus at this point. And if anyone is capable of selling a good bus I could see it from whiteflame.

However, prima facia it does look good for him. And as I have mentioned already I don't entirely trust my ability to read whiteflame so I will leave reading whiteflame up to the good people of the town.

Not necessarily, but you have to look at whiteflame's intentions here. I've never thought of whiteflame as death-tunnelly or inclined to sheep. In #1337 (interesting number), whiteflame posted for the first time in nine hours to broadside me. Usually, whiteflame gives balanced analysis that weighs all sides of an argument, but here he rails against me without pointing out one redeeming quality of my claim. If Wryly can suggest in #1377 that she might be suffering from perspective distortion, then I think you can see how out of character it is for whiteflame to be as one-sided as a Möbius strip. This tells me that his analysis stems from an undisclosed conflict of interest.

I don't see whiteflame as particularly death tunnelly in this situation, in fact he's been far less death tunnelly towards you than say me or mestari who haven't even changed our votes from you once this whole phase. Hell I was willing to lynch you before 90% of the even better arguments to lynch you even came forward. That said it is also hard for me to doubt whiteflame here at all because he is lowkey making the same points I am making but he is saying them in a more articulated way and getting my point across seemingly on accident. Full transparency though; I absolutely suck at reading whiteflame. I tend to town read him every single time he is scum. So if he is being blatantly scummy I am incapable of trusting myself to come to that conclusion barring some major scum slip. Thats one I will leave up to the rest of the town to figure out and if enough people think he's scum maybe I will bite.

I keep wondering what you people would consider a towny claim. With Mafia, and third-parties if there are any, confirmed to have fake-claims, the best claim in the world is doomed to suffer the slings and arrows of, "Mikal could have slid it to them under the table", unless it's completely confirmable like Innocent Child.

There is no right or wrong answer to this, claims that are scummy rely heavily on certain contexts like who the mod is, past modding styles, their writing styles, is it their personality to use certain roles, do these roles make sense with other roles in the game, etc etc. There is so much more that goes into scum reading you though then just us not liking your claim, that is just the icing on the cake.

Answer as best as you can without copy-pasting your role PM: Does it say that all players, except maybe guild leaders, are recruitable? If not, then I am an outlier regardless of your role PM, but only in that single sense.It's beyond my comprehension how anyone can question that not being a Hunter makes her unrecruitable, 

You being unrecruitable isn't even close to my point about your character not making sense as a recruit because she doesn't have powers, not because she is literally unable to be recruited. The white tiger wouldn't recruit a non hunter to send them into S rank dungeons, because they would just insta die. Your character isn't like stamping her feet about not letting any one recruit her which would make more sense as an unrecruitable character.

wanting to learn how to heal people makes her the backup Doctor

Because in the realm of hunters with virtual super powers, a med school student (not even a real medical professional) is unlikely to do even a fraction as much as a hunter with mystical healing powers, where there are several that exist in the show.

and being close to Jinwoo gives her information about him. 

I can think of at least three other characters that are closer to jin woo and know more about him than his own sister lol. Them being "close" is very loosely considered here because they live together and share the same parents, and are sometimes nice to each other.

Oh yeah, and if you think this is a fake-claim and the justifications are shitty, tell me why you think my teammates approved them. Unlike in Suikoden, I would have needed three people to sign off on it. Maybe only one or two given inactives, but I bet Alyssa would have pushed back on a claim she thought would go over like a lead balloon much harder than you did to the Leprechaun claim in Suikoden.

The point you just made for one was that I was literally mafia with you and advised against claiming leprechaun multiple times and you did it anyway. Chances are you were cocky enough to think you wouldn't be scum read for it. Others have made good points about this as well referencing that you are trying to cause as much chaos and confusion around your lynch to buy you time, and that has certainly been working well for you considering we still haven't managed to lynch you when the wagon started on you over 1100 posts ago. Pie also mentioned your claim could be to oust jin woo or a doctor. There are so many possibilities for why you did what you did, including mafia thinking you are screwed anyway and trying to distance from you and telling you to blatantly make a scummy claim so they can earn town cred from voting you, or maybe you thought the claim would have been more believable than it actually was and are surprised at the amount of negative feedback you are getting towards it, etc etc. Don't get me wrong, I can bite a good wifom argument like this but theres more wifom working against you than for you in this case. Also if you recall, I learned the hard way with you when I let you live in mylo in our first game ever. Remember I made this big post about over analyzing what you would or wouldn't do to make a case that painted you as so scummy you had to be town? I lost the game for that and it's haunted me lol. I was called an idiot by pie and whiteflame for that and in hindsight I kind of was lol. So I take wifom like this with a major grain of salt especially with players where its bit me in the ass before.

 Do you think your justification is watertight? That is, can you imagine that anyone would even slightly question that it's anything other than a perfect fit for your role?

This one is probably not for me since I am town confirmed already but yes it makes pretty good sense to me.

I can't fully disagree with all of those points, but I don't accept the conclusion. If you assume every best case scenario for me being town, what number would you put on it? One percent? Five? Twenty, fifty, eight-five? If it's high, are you going to risk lynching a likely townie in the hopes of confirming their PoE on a third-party?

If I thought the odds of mislynching you were high I wouldn't have even be making this point. Obviously we should try not to mislynch. But people always make mislynching sound like the end of the world, and when there is a surplus of logical reasons to lynch someone, I am hard pressed to feel bad about mis-lynching. I'd rather focus on the positives that mislynching can bring to the future. You have seen town mislynch more than a few times day phase one and come back and win the game. You are narrowing down POE every time you do it, and you are creating activity and reads from it.

I would rather risk hitting Mafia or, better yet, if I were confident that I knew who Jinwoo was, lynch him.

I disagree with hunting heavily for jin woo, but I may be in the minority here. Part of the reasons I don't like third party is because it feels like it distracts from the real point of the game which is to find scum. I have said as much that my feelings about the guild recruit mechanics are much the same. I am indulging them out of respect for mikal and the design of his game. But I won't be super butt hurt to give third party a win here if it means catching all of scum. Pie would probably dis-agree because his elo is precious to him, for me its the joy of the game.

I understand that town sometimes has to make fellow townies take one for the team, but I know that I am town, so I have to self-preserve because, from my perspective, any lynch other than you or wylted has a higher chance of being a mislynch, and you two won't be lynched.

I mean it would help if you had a better alternative for a lynch that wasn't a half assed omgus attempt to get whiteflame lynched for making the same points as the mod confirmed townie.

As with whiteflame, my objection was to the arguments and the manner in which they were presented, not to the conclusion. ThothScummate!Alyssa would have taken a risk even by defending me with a straightforward argument like, "Everyone makes mistakes. I totally buy that Thoth's explanation that he read something Helz said and mixed him up with Mestari." Instead, she contradicted the explanation I gave in a way that came off as the most blatant teammate-saving act imaginable. I double-dog dare you to come up with any scenario that explains this without invoking implausibly poor coordination in scumchat or WIFOM for the sake of WIFOM like I talked about in #1220. Also, my read on Alyssa has moved from scumlean to null because I can't hazard a guess at her motive for defending me like she did.

Double Dog Dare accepted because you just provided me with two since you just retracted your scum read to a scum lean, indicating the read was likely contrived from the beginning, you never pushed her lynch for it, and she has been playing possum with voting you and unvoting you all day phase. Plus her initial defense of you happened way before the claim fuck ups that added to your pressure, meaning that at this point if she was your scum buddy, throwing town cred on you was more of a believable sell since it was mostly TMI that got you scum read in the first place. But it would be hard for me not to point out that you have essentially made some of the same arguments to defend yourself as she did to defend you "I would never do this" yada yada

In other words, you believe that one of Alyssa, Helz, and Rex is probably Jinwoo. If your Jinwoo suspect weren't in my list, you would call that evidence against me. Since they are in my list, you also call that evidence against me. Between this and laughing at my claim, it's clear that your hateboner for me is too rock-solid to let you consider any point in my favor.

Hateboner is a very strong word for me scum reading you lol but I am open to being wrong about third party being in the pile. I am already back tracking on that idea a little bit.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't. Also, being town-confirmed puts your motives above suspicion, but I'm curious why you aren't pushing whoever you think is Jinwoo. Do you not think they are a winsteal 3P?

Answered this already but yeah I guess I don't care super much about losing to third party,

Are you just that confident that I am scum? 

If that wasn't blatantly obvious, I don't know how to get that message across.

If you knew that I were scum and a scummate told me the same Jinwoo suspect that you have, who would you think fed it to me?

Someone with theme knowledge. I don't know who all has theme knowledge, or if everyone has been open about having theme knowledge. Also could be someone who did a lot of theme research. I don't know who yet, but it's something I am considering assuming I don't totally retract the idea that Jin Woo is in those three people.

Could it possibly be that I am defensive because town is testing if my claim is made of wood by seeing if it weighs the same as a duck?

As much as I appreciate a good holy grail reference...

Anyone remember the Russian Mafia when That2 suggested lynching Luna after he came out and claimed Dreamer results, the idea being that either he'd be scum or they'd know the results were accurate? I say we follow that plan for real here. If Thoth is scum, great. If not, we know his list and know SJW must be on there.

Sure, if you want to add that as a reason to lynch thoth to the million other reasons, you won't have any complaint from me lol. I feel like Thoth could have been reasonably lynched 500 posts ago though and we could have still defended that lynch based on where we were at with him then. The case for lynching him just gets stronger and stronger.

No, of course not. Hence why I never hard-claimed my role as confirmable. But it very much could have ended up confirming me if I claimed my PoE and then one of them flipped Jinwoo. I'm a lot of things, but I'm not an Oracle.

I am just going to say this outright, I think I know who Jin Woo is as well, though its mostly a theory based on context clues and a lot of theme knowledge. If you have someone halfway decent on the scum team there is a good chance they also came to the same conclusion as I did and fed you that info to earn you town cred for this exact argument.

Alyssa for her absurd defense of me, which was possibly because she has an ability that told me who I am, which would make even more sense if she's a 3P and needed to get rid of me than it would if she were town and her information made us like paired Emissaries. Why would she defend me? Because she wanted to look extra good and buddy-buddy knowing she was in my PoE after she flipped 3P. That's a possibility, anyway. I don't know whether or not she has information about my role or what information she has if so.

It amuses me that you are trying to hard to sell the fact that you are town here, but seem to be literally unable to accept the one person who seemed to buy your bs in any regard town telling you. Because at this point if you are scum buddies, you need to create as much distance as possible lol.

I thought it was Mestari and Luna. Point me to where and why u started it

Thankyou for having a good memory, I feared for a moment that mestari would get all the credit for this one. Though tbf he did point out the initial "scum slip", but I suspected the same post for different reasons, as evidenced in post #283

You're listening too hard to Pie and whiteflame and it's making you see me as the scientific name of a pig

Googling this, I am sure you mean "sus" but I like to think of a universe where you meant "swine" which equally fits this sentence and is funnier.

If you people are going to fucking scumread me, at least have the common decency to do it for thinking through my claim enough to make it fit so well with everything that's come up so far and having quick responses to y'all's points against it.

The problem is, even giving you the benefit of the doubt, you are undeniably an outlier from my own pm, the publicly known guild recruit mechanic which doesn't play into your character well, and the roles make even less sense for your character. Sure sometimes mods have questionable justifications for the roles they make, but without any flip to indicate that has happened, you at the bare minimum are a good science lynch to test that theory, even ignoring every other point about you. The draw backs to lynching you are not apparent in the slightest. You are a back up doctor, not even a main doctor, in a game where we don't even lose someone during night phase 1, and we would have to assume the mafia would kill the doctor night phase two for your role to even become useable all the way into night phase 3. So other than just letting you live to be merciful, what is the major drawback to lynching you as opposed to getting hoards of information about the set up and role justification from your flip even if you are town, and being able to use your wagon to read people? Lynching you is an optimal strategy even if we assume every best case scenario for you being town. If I was town in your situation I would not be mad about being lynched, in fact I would understand it and think that at the very least my lynch helps the town in the long run, and would be more than okay with it.

You also all need to consider the possibility that Jinwoo got a fake claim.

Rex already confirmed this via mod question, though mikal wasn't able to answer that a third party existed, just that if one did exist they would get a fake claim. Which is further evidence to suggest that the post from mikal earlier indicates a likely 3p.

How come every time I say I'm going to bed for the night my brain drags me back to mafia.

Yeah my sleep schedule is also super fucked because of this game. It doesn't help that I am supposed to go to sleep at like 8am my time, ya know right about the same time most people are getting on to play. Fuckin daylighters.

This all proves what I said in #445 about how y'all wouldn't stop at a character claim.

Which is why I was fine lynching you based on the scum slip and odd behavior before you even claimed the rest. In my mind you were already doomed, there was just a small chance maybe you had a towny enough role and claim to excuse the rest. But that ended up not being the case.

Love that you're trying to twist this into modpsych. I'm not calling you out for having roles that aren't "cool" and, if someone had never seen the show and knew only the bare minimum from reading your character's Wiki, they might have walked away with the information you gave and just slapped them into a role. I can't imagine that's what Mikal did. Oh, and pretty funny to say I'm sheeping Luna here (one of the few other players who knows enough about this show to speak about your character knowledgeably), or pushing an easy mislynch when I've been one of the most hesitant players in this game to jump on your wagon.

Also is it even anti town to sheep a town confirmed player? lol I don't know what his point with that argument is

https://share.google/funicAnRaW6NQu1QD

Lmfao I remember those commercials

In the arrrrrmmmmsss of an angellll

Sarah McLachlin does not approve of this

Man I feel like a dick. Thoth is obviously scum. I’m just torturing a puppy for no reason now to watch him squirm

So why are you still not revealing the information