Lunatic

WF, I want to talk to you directly before you make this call, because it’s all on you now. I’ve been the cop this entire game. Every result I gave came back exactly right. Helz town. Thoth scum. You town. You know that last one is true better than anyone. I did my job, I found a scum, I handed him to you, and I cleared you when Kohai spent the whole game trying to get you lynched. And I don't want to lose this game because you’re too paranoid to trust your own cop.

I get why. I’ve bussed before, I’ve faked cop before (twice in a row would be just insane), you know my scum game. But think about what you’re actually accusing me of. I could have won yesterday with one fake guilty. On Helz, on you, on anyone. Kohai was already on you. Helz was already leaning you. Thoth and I had two votes sitting right there. Instead I threw away a guaranteed win, handed you my “partner,” and walked us into a coin flip where you decide everything? Nobody does that. Not me, not anyone. There’s no big reward on the other side of that risk. There’s just losing. Look at who Kohai has been all game. Townread Thoth DP2. Wanted you dead since DP1. Put town Mag1c at L1. Named the Vanillizer on day one. And right now he’s not even arguing results, he’s arguing my meta from other games, because the results in this one don’t work for him. If you vote me and I flip town, every single thing I did this game was real and we lost because we couldn’t trust it. Please don’t let that be how this ends. Trust the results. Vote Kohai.

Kohai your argument is in shambles now and you are just getting desperate at this point.

Kohai your argument is in shambles now and you are just getting desperate at this point.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 11:03 PM (post #126)

Why didn’t you consider the possibility of wf being a godfather?

I am not clearing whiteflame on the result alone, it's that combined with thoth being a vanillizer.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 11:02 PM (post #125)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 1:00 AM (post #124)

THERE IS A COUNTER, just because you refuse to accept that a vanillizer is a counter, doesn't make it not true. And again, you assume TMI that there isn't a lawyer or godfather in the remaining scum role, which is pretty telling.

This is such an obvious slip. You came in this DP claiming inno on wf and instantly voting me without any of us having breathing space to discuss. Obviously that means you weren’t consider wf as a godfather.

Bro stop throwing a tantrum and making text larger, it's an incredibly childish strategy. But thoth having a vanillizer is what completely cleared whiteflame, there was no chance scum vanillized themselves and then got lucky that I happened to get a guilty to help him bus thoth lol. You are ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:57 PM (post #122)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 12:53 AM (post #119)

Very different scenarios, because in that game there was a reason to bus, in this one there is absolutely no reason to bus.

Thoth was on everyone’s radar. Even if you thought you could get one of us to misvote if we had lynched him you’d be strongly paired with him. Easier to hard bus in F5.

Being on the radar is very different then pushing him for no reason when both helz and whiteflame were bigger options for a mislynch yesterday. I was the one who doubled down on that and made the lynch happen. I could have even died on the hill of my result while accepting helz plan to lynch outside of the result, and ended the game immediately by having thoth help me vote outside. We only needed one vote, and helz was ready and willing to vote whiteflame last day phase. It makes no sense for me to bus in any situation here.

WTf are you talking about? We know from Mag1c it’s blackmailer. You really think scum is a popular blackmailer?

I am saying we don't know the last remaining scum role in it's entirety, you can't dismiss that they have 1x blackmailer, 1x popular, 1x lawyer, or whatever else. We simply don't know, yet you are using TMI by pretending to know exactly what the last scum role is lol.

No. It. Is. Not. Scum have a direct counter to tracker (ninja) doctor and Bp (strongman) but we are supposed to believe the only counter to cop is vanilla?

How is a cop potentially permanently losing ALL of it's abilities not a direct counter lol??

The point is pie helped balance this game and I doubt he would give us a cop without a direct counter.

THERE IS A COUNTER, just because you refuse to accept that a vanillizer is a counter, doesn't make it not true. And again, you assume TMI that there isn't a lawyer or godfather in the remaining scum role, which is pretty telling.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:50 PM (post #117)

I also say it’s super easy to fake a guilty on your partner but faking guilty on a town is way too risky

Except it could have easily backfired and just got me lynched yesterday. You and thoth seet it up to look that way by claiming to blackmail him. Any guilty on him would just look like I was trying to frame him. I was a plausible question for being lynched yesterday too. The guilty just would have backfired on me if I was scum and just colud have left thoth looking scummy in a lylo situation since he would still be in the same spot with his out of sync character claim.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:49 PM (post #116)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 12:47 AM (post #115)

. Any fake guilty I wanted would have won the game DP3. I gave you Thoth.

You also handed town Wylted in bananas’s the Pitt game.

Point is I’ve seen you pull this shit off before and you’re just doing the same shit again

Very different scenarios, because in that game there was a reason to bus, in this one there is absolutely no reason to bus. Your basically just saying that I decided to put the game in a 50/50 for no reason when I could have won the game just as easily yesterday. Yes I have bussed as scum. But when have I ever done it for 0 net gain like you are accusing me of here?

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:46 PM (post #114)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 12:42 AM (post #113)

My results are 3 for 3, and the only way they’re fake is if I threw away three separate guaranteed wins to set up a coin flip.

Which is quiet easy if you are scum.

Question when was the last time we had a game with a cop that didn’t include either godfather, milller, lawyer, framer or other way to clearly mess with the cop’s accuracy?

This question is set up on false premises, we don't know the entire game balance yet, we don't know what the remaining scum role has. That said I've already explained in great depth why a vanillizer also works as a counter to cop here. There's probably also games where lawyers and godfathers exist, but I am not going to do that research for you, when the cross also applies to your popular since there is plenty of games where scum have popular and outside roles.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:20 PM (post #110)

I'm about to go to sleep. Gonna make my final points

Regarding Luna's case:

1) Why would I "slip" the existence of a vanillaizer?

Nobody chooses to slip. That’s what makes it a slip. You named a role on DP1 unprompted, framed as a worry about your own claim, and it turned out to be exactly what the scum team had. “I always think about these roles” doesn’t change which one you landed on.

2) I've shown in multiple previous games that roles like this is what I'm always thinking about especially when I have a role that is confirmable.

3) Blackmail chain: I had thought that there was scum between helz / mag1c for reasons I stated earlier in the game. In the end we were forced to lynch mag1c

Your read was “scum between Helz and Mag1c.” Both flipped town. And “we were forced to lynch Mag1c” leaves out that you’re the one who put him at L1.

My case:

1) I encourage you to review again the interacitons between luan / thoth. Both sussed each other but never voted or hard pushed each other. Luna had multiple opporunities to vote thoth / wagon him day 1. He chose to keep his vote on shining.

That applies to you more than me. You joke-voted Thoth DP1 and immediately unvoted. You townread him early DP2, and WF called that strange. You never voted him until after my guilty. At least I had him as a top scumread the entire time. You were giving him town credit.

2) Mech:

Why would Hawking be in the game but Clinton not? Luna himself admitted that Clinton is likely to be in the game. Why would I, as scum, risk asking about a character that's high probability to be in the game?

That’s not the question. Both could easily be in the game. The question is which one of us is lying about being who we say. Clinton plus Popular is the most natural fit in the setup, which is exactly why it’s the claim scum would want. One host question tells you if it’s safe. And you posted it at post 4 of DP1, before anyone else had said a word. WF flagged that kind of instant claim as a prep-time tell on day one.

Does cop and the stated justification actually fit with Stephen Hawking? Compare his justification "I have one of the greatest minds in history, and nothing escapes my analysis" and compare that with justifications that have flipped.

I wrote “justification in a nutshell” in DP3 #20 because I summarized it, I didn’t quote the PM. Your own Clinton justification was a one-line summary too. Hawking was at Epstein’s island conference in 2006 and is in the files. He’s as on theme as anyone here. None of this touches the core. Any fake guilty I wanted would have won the game DP3. I gave you Thoth.

Both posts you're referencing basically amount to "my being confirmed Popular should be NAI." Neither of them suggest he's seen a game where a Popular player has an active role to boot, so no, I don't believe he answered that himself on day 1. He's continued to suggest he's never seen it before, though I have made a game where scum had a player like that and I posted the link for it.

I mean I made the same point, the irony isn't lost on me that I am now the one having to argue that same point.

As in any game, I don't think sussing me is a scum tell, regardless of how townie I think I'm being. I don't really get considering pairings in DP1, but we were all basing our reads on threadbare information then. And in DP3, especially with the focus on me, Kohai and Helz and the belief that we should lynch in that pool, I get it. I mechanically had a whole lot less going for me than Helz did, so POE was enough to consider me the obvious choice, and for a lot of the DP, we'd all written off a pairing between you and Thoth. It could be sus, just not obviously so.

You have to look at the motives behind his pushes though, its not just about being suspicious of you. When you can actively dismiss every push I make on the one scum we have caught as "bussing" and give him a pass on every wrong push he's made, I don't know what to tell you anymore.

I went back and re-read that exchange. He was literally responding to Thoth saying "It is never okay to VTL me, and I do not grant you permission to ever do so." So, yeah, it was a response to a bit of absurdity from Thoth. I was sussing it, but closer inspection says it's NAI. I agree, the decision to townread Thoth early in DP2 was odd. I disagree that his voting Thoth based on the belief that a) your Cop result was accurate and b) the second Blackmail couldn't be real is sus. I think he had a reasonable basis for the vote and it solidified a position he was slowly building through DP2. And yes, just like you, he was reticent to vote for Thoth in DP2, focusing on the 1v1 between me and Mag1c. Not really sussing either of you for that.

Even with all the excuses you are making for kohai, a joke vote on your own partner is the cheapest distancing there is. Thoth giving him the setup line doesn’t make it NAI.

Covered this before, but he a) brought it up in a previous game without a Vanillaizer, b) had no incentive to out his partner's role, and c) would have to have been called out by his own partner for TMI. It's odd, I'll give you that, but the decision doesn't make logical sense for him. I'd expect Kohai from like a year ago to make that kind of error and draw attention to himself, but I've seen Kohai improve a great deal and I don't think he's likely to do it now. Off chance, but not an obvious sus.

Out of every role that exists, he named the one scum had, on DP1, unprompted. Thoth flagged it as TMI. Mentioning it in an old game doesn’t make it random here.

I just don't get this. So Mag1c voted Helz. Kohai voted Helz with him. There was a "fight," which basically amounted to a question about whether there could be both a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer (again, the 1v1 we've been talking about a good deal, which involved everyone), so... Kohai is to blame for Mag1c's lynch? What am I missing? Feels like an Underpants Gnomes situation where a step is missing.

Step by step: scum silence Mag1c so he can’t defend himself or explain his reads. His only action is a vote on Helz. Kohai jumps on it before any reasoning exists. That makes Mag1c look like he’s pushing without a case, the WF/Mag1c balance question gets framed around him, and Kohai puts him at L1. That’s the missing step.

Was wondering when this would come up and from whom. Yeah, the Soldier claim was a pretty big deal. I got the impression that Helz was very clear-eyed about making it. He knew he'd pretty much have to be the NK, regardless of who was scum. Assuming Kohai's scum, you're absolutely right, he couldn't kill you. That would have given town another route to victory since he could have just lynched me and been done with it. But a similar dynamic is true for you. If you're scum, then your fake green check on Helz effectively makes it impossible to lynch him in a three-way fight between you, him and either me or Kohai. And it wouldn't matter if Kohai or I was lynched, since Helz would've soloed the win.

So you're right. Killing Helz was the only move Kohai could make if he was scum. What you've left out is that killing Helz was also the only move you could make if you were scum.

It wasn’t symmetrical. If I’m scum, I never need the night kill on Helz, because I could have lynched him DP3 with a single fake guilty. The only person who needed Helz dead at night was the scum who couldn’t control a cop result. That’s Kohai. My results are 3 for 3, and the only way they’re fake is if I threw away three separate guaranteed wins to set up a coin flip.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 9:16 PM (post #107)

I am usually reserved with my votes, I describe myself as an intentional voter. On that end, I don't think there's a point to voting thoth at this point in the day phase if the vote won't accomplish much, and I was in general agreement about the vanillize/blackmailer dynamic. Even knowing he is scum now for sure, I don't know that in hind sight trying to steer the game in that direction makes the most sense with the information we had and at the point in the game we were at, and the limited activity from thoth. I explored him in later rounds and that should be enough.

As someone who is pretty reserved with voting myself, I get it, but I do also recognize that you're trying to gain some steam off of sussing Thoth when you were clearly unwilling to push him based on your sus. Wouldn't be a first for you to break with others in the DP, though I'll grant you that the 1v1 that was being setup at the time was really drawing enough attention that it likely wouldn't have gone anywhere. Maybe you could see the writing on the wall for that push at the time. Again, though, I don't really like that you keep pointing to Thoth's lack of activity as an excuse. Thoth was absent over a good deal of the DP, sure, but there are substantial overlaps in your activity and his during DP2, overlaps when he was present and posting for over an hour in the early morning (particularly true on the day the lynch went through). I don't buy that he just was too inactive to consider because you didn't expect to receive responses. I know he's ghosted us before, but I don't buy that here.

WF, I’m going to stand on all of it, and I want to add something that I think settles the “you’d know the results anyway” point.

If I’m a fake cop, I pick my results. I could have said Helz guilty, and town lynches the Soldier DP3. Game over, scum win. I could have said WF guilty, and Kohai was already “almost certain it’s wf.” Game over. Any fake guilty on any townie wins on the spot. Instead I “chose” an innocent on the Soldier and a guilty on my own partner. Scum knowing the results doesn’t help your case, it kills it. A scum cop with free choice of results never hands town his partner when every other guilty wins. Thoth: “overlaps in activity” isn’t engagement. When he did show up in DP2 he told us he was “only on page 5 reading up” and was talking balance theory. I put him on the spot in #254, he dodged with “Mag1c is my choice of scum,” and the entire town agreed the day was WF vs Mag1c. I’m not apologizing for not splitting votes off the consensus question.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 8:29 PM (post #103)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 10:27 PM (post #102)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 8:26 PM (post #101)

I just realised there is an interesting mirror between night kills / actions between this game and last game when luna and pie were scum.

N1: They killed banana and they had pie as one of their strongest scum reads

N2: They killed Mag1c and mag1c was voting luna

Not really a mirror at all, I don't see how n1 has any correlation and magic never voted me here.

But mag1c did mention you as a top scum read. Funny how 2 players who sussed you were all targeted. Mag1c was blackmailed and Noah was night killed. Those kills and actions have your finger prints all over them

Kohai, Mag1c’s top scumread was Helz, “solid scum.” I was a “much lighter” second. And blackmailing him didn’t stop him voting me. His one vote went to Helz, and you were first on it. Your case also needs me to be two different players at once. I’m careless enough to kill and blackmail the two people sussing me, leaving my “fingerprints all over it,” but also calculated enough to bus my own partner with a cop claim. Pick one. And if we’re reading fingerprints, Mago died voting Thoth, and Thoth was scum. Kills that point at someone are exactly how you frame them.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 8:26 PM (post #101)

I just realised there is an interesting mirror between night kills / actions between this game and last game when luna and pie were scum.

N1: They killed banana and they had pie as one of their strongest scum reads

N2: They killed Mag1c and mag1c was voting luna

Not really a mirror at all, I don't see how n1 has any correlation and magic never voted me here.

The case against Kohai:

Kohai already told us Popular doesn’t prove alignment. DP1 #152: “wolves have had popular modifiers like this in Mikal’s games.” DP1 #155: it would “prove my role and not necessarily alignment.” Today he’s asking if anyone’s ever seen a Popular with extra powers. He answered that himself on day one.

His reads were wrong in exactly one direction. WF, he’s been on you since DP1 #113 (“strong potential pairing”) and opened DP3 with “almost certain it’s wf.” You know you’re town. He also floated a Helz/Luna team, voted Helz alongside the blackmailed Mag1c, and put town Mag1c at L1. Every player he pushed was town.

His handling of Thoth. He voted Thoth DP1 and immediately went “JK, unvote.” He townread him early DP2, which you yourself called strange. He didn’t vote him for real until after my guilty.

Vanillizer on DP1. He brought it up unprompted before anyone was vanillized, and Thoth called it “supermassive TMI.” Scum turned out to have exactly that.

The Blackmail chain. Mag1c gets blackmailed, his only move is a vote on Helz, and Kohai is the first one on it (DP2 #13). That fight is what got town Mag1c lynched.

The N3 kill. Per Helz’s Soldier flip, if Kohai is scum, killing me or you loses outright. Killing Helz was his only move that didn’t lose immediately. That’s why we’re here.

My results are 3 for 3. Helz town, Thoth scum, and WF, town. As scum I could have won DP3 in the first hour off Kohai’s own vote on you. Instead I handed you Thoth.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 8:09 PM (post #95)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 10:03 PM (post #91)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 7:59 PM (post #85)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 9:43 PM (post #77)

WF, fair read, and I appreciate you giving the towntells their due. On being hands off with Thoth in DP2: I’d point out you did the exact same thing. In your #280 you called Thoth “the most probable person to be his scum partner,” then voted Mag1c in #288, because DP2 was the WF vs Mag1c question and we all treated that as the lynch. I was in the same spot. I did put Thoth on the spot in #254 and told him he was still a top problem we had to deal with, but I wasn’t going to split votes away from the main question on an activity read. When I had a result, I voted him.

There's a difference between stating that I think I know the likely team and specifically putting attention on one of them (in this case, Mag1c) with the aim of getting to the other (Thoth) based on the flip. I don't see that kind of reasoning from you in your posts, and while you put some attention and Mag1c and me, there wasn't a clear decision that I could see. I do see you putting Thoth on the spot, but never stating a clear intent to vote or actually voting. I agree that changed in DP3.

There's only so much you can do with thoth and his generally sporadic activity levels, it's something I have struggled with him in multiple games. We are also pressed with a deadline and when I woke up dp2 the consensus was pretty much that a black mail and a vanillize didn't make sense existing on the same night phase, which I agreed with that logic. I've pressured thoth and been met with inactivity in more games than just this one. The difference in those games is that we usually have more time to sus him out, as opposed to me stalling the entire lynch of magic just to get him talking. The conclusion dp2 was obvious between you and magic, we had plenty of time to go through thoth still.

I guess, though the difference here is that, even when Thoth was active, there wasn't the kind of push I'd expect from someone who was clearly sussing him. I agree, attention in the DP was on the belief that only Mag1c or I were telling the truth. You seemed pretty on the fence about it, and I get that. It just seems odd that, when you had a clear scumread besides and he did become active later in the DP, there were a couple of posts making your reads clear, a post asking him some admittedly pointed questions, and no votes.

I am usually reserved with my votes, I describe myself as an intentional voter. On that end, I don't think there's a point to voting thoth at this point in the day phase if the vote won't accomplish much, and I was in general agreement about the vanillize/blackmailer dynamic. Even knowing he is scum now for sure, I don't know that in hind sight trying to steer the game in that direction makes the most sense with the information we had and at the point in the game we were at, and the limited activity from thoth. I explored him in later rounds and that should be enough.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 8:08 PM (post #94)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 10:06 PM (post #93)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 8:01 PM (post #88)

Scum don’t kill their best mis lynch candidate. They keep him around.

Exactly. And you know very well I'm the easiest mislynch around. If I was scum why would I put myself in a 2 v 1 situation with two of the top players on the site that are typically very difficult to lynch?

Kohai, you didn’t pick this final three, the Soldier did. Read Helz’s flip. If he’s the last living town member, town auto wins. So if you’re scum going into N3: Kill me, and my Thoth guilty is basically confirmed. Town lynches you, or mislynches WF and Helz is last town. You lose both ways. Kill WF, and Helz and I vote you. You lose. Kill Helz, and it’s a 50/50 in front of WF.

Killing Helz was the only kill that didn’t lose on the spot. “Why would I put myself here” doesn’t hold up when this was the only spot left.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 8:01 PM (post #88)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 10:00 PM (post #86)

Kohai, if you want to follow the trail, follow all of it. Mag1c’s top sus wasn’t me, it was Helz, “solid scum.” I was a “much lighter” second. After he got blackmailed, the only thing he could do was vote Helz. And the very first person to jump on that vote was you, DP2 #13. WF flagged that himself in DP2: “I didn’t like the early jumping on the same vote with Mag1c.” The Blackmailer silenced Mag1c, his vote landed on Helz, you piled on, and that Helz vs Mag1c fight is what got town Mag1c lynched. The trail of blood points at Thoth just as much. Mago died voting him, and Thoth was scum. And Noah’s own N1 plan was a redirect between you and me, with a “strong scum read on one” of us. His sus wasn’t only on me.

In what world do I kill Noah n2 over someone like you? Noah had me as solid town read. If I was scum I'd easily have been abe to manipulate him given that he was following my footsteps nearly the entire game.

Kohai, WF already answered this in #90 and I agree with him. Noah was a wild card with a redirector that came online N3, and as a new player he wasn’t going to lead a lynch anyway. Being easy to steer in the thread doesn’t matter if he can mess with your night kill. And his redirect plan from DP2 was literally between you and me, with a “strong scum read on one” of us. If you’re scum, that’s a new player with a live redirector pointed in your direction going into N3. That’s exactly who you remove. As for “why not kill me”: nobody knew I was the cop on N2. I was unclaimed, and both you and Noah were sussing me. You said yourself in DP2 that I was “the one person I really need to solve.” Scum don’t kill their best mis lynch candidate. They keep him around.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 7:59 PM (post #85)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/12/2026 at 9:43 PM (post #77)

WF, fair read, and I appreciate you giving the towntells their due. On being hands off with Thoth in DP2: I’d point out you did the exact same thing. In your #280 you called Thoth “the most probable person to be his scum partner,” then voted Mag1c in #288, because DP2 was the WF vs Mag1c question and we all treated that as the lynch. I was in the same spot. I did put Thoth on the spot in #254 and told him he was still a top problem we had to deal with, but I wasn’t going to split votes away from the main question on an activity read. When I had a result, I voted him.

There's a difference between stating that I think I know the likely team and specifically putting attention on one of them (in this case, Mag1c) with the aim of getting to the other (Thoth) based on the flip. I don't see that kind of reasoning from you in your posts, and while you put some attention and Mag1c and me, there wasn't a clear decision that I could see. I do see you putting Thoth on the spot, but never stating a clear intent to vote or actually voting. I agree that changed in DP3.

There's only so much you can do with thoth and his generally sporadic activity levels, it's something I have struggled with him in multiple games. We are also pressed with a deadline and when I woke up dp2 the consensus was pretty much that a black mail and a vanillize didn't make sense existing on the same night phase, which I agreed with that logic. I've pressured thoth and been met with inactivity in more games than just this one. The difference in those games is that we usually have more time to sus him out, as opposed to me stalling the entire lynch of magic just to get him talking. The conclusion dp2 was obvious between you and magic, we had plenty of time to go through thoth still.

Kohai, if you want to follow the trail, follow all of it. Mag1c’s top sus wasn’t me, it was Helz, “solid scum.” I was a “much lighter” second. After he got blackmailed, the only thing he could do was vote Helz. And the very first person to jump on that vote was you, DP2 #13. WF flagged that himself in DP2: “I didn’t like the early jumping on the same vote with Mag1c.” The Blackmailer silenced Mag1c, his vote landed on Helz, you piled on, and that Helz vs Mag1c fight is what got town Mag1c lynched. The trail of blood points at Thoth just as much. Mago died voting him, and Thoth was scum. And Noah’s own N1 plan was a redirect between you and me, with a “strong scum read on one” of us. His sus wasn’t only on me.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 7:54 PM (post #82)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 9:38 PM (post #76)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 9:36 PM (post #75)

Luna -

Going to get this out of the way first, Luna's had a couple of towntells over the course of the DP that I'm considering. They're peppered into the DP at various points, e.g. asking Savant to ping Thoth, the "derp" moment with the uncertainty about the lack of an NP, and the confusion over Noah's NK. I'm still considering them and whether they were purposely included, but I am giving him a bit of credit for them (particularly the derp since Thoth briefly called him out for his lack of familiarity with the DP structure).

Luna has been playing mafia long enough to know how to find the answers to these questions. It is very easy to fake derp yourself (I know because I've done it myself).

With regards to their d1 interactions - Luna had plenty of opportunity to push for a thoth lynch but does not. He stays on shinning. He asks Shining who he wants to lynch. When shining says Thoth he stays on Thoth.

Yeah, like I said, it's plausible he just did this to sprinkle in town tells purposefully. It's plausible.

I think you mean when Shining says Thoth, he stayed on Shining. I don't see any votes on Thoth from Luna before DP3.

WF, fair, I didn’t vote DP2. I was going to (I said as much when Helz hammered), but the wagon moved before I got there. And yeah, I’ll agree the Thoth/me susses on each other weren’t strong distance. I’m not resting on that. My case is my results.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 7:38 PM (post #76)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 9:36 PM (post #75)

Luna -

Going to get this out of the way first, Luna's had a couple of towntells over the course of the DP that I'm considering. They're peppered into the DP at various points, e.g. asking Savant to ping Thoth, the "derp" moment with the uncertainty about the lack of an NP, and the confusion over Noah's NK. I'm still considering them and whether they were purposely included, but I am giving him a bit of credit for them (particularly the derp since Thoth briefly called him out for his lack of familiarity with the DP structure).

Luna has been playing mafia long enough to know how to find the answers to these questions. It is very easy to fake derp yourself (I know because I've done it myself).

With regards to their d1 interactions - Luna had plenty of opportunity to push for a thoth lynch but does not. He stays on shinning. He asks Shining who he wants to lynch. When shining says Thoth he stays on Thoth.

Kohai, the derp point can’t be proven either way so I’ll leave it. But the Shining point applies to you just as much. You asked Shining “why is this?” when he named Thoth, then voted Shining anyway and called him “still the best lynch.” That was the consensus DP1 lynch and we were all on it. I also told Mago in DP1 I’d help pressure Thoth once the day resolved, and that’s what I did.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 7:36 PM (post #75)

Luna -

Going to get this out of the way first, Luna's had a couple of towntells over the course of the DP that I'm considering. They're peppered into the DP at various points, e.g. asking Savant to ping Thoth, the "derp" moment with the uncertainty about the lack of an NP, and the confusion over Noah's NK. I'm still considering them and whether they were purposely included, but I am giving him a bit of credit for them (particularly the derp since Thoth briefly called him out for his lack of familiarity with the DP structure).

Apart from that, though, there's not a lot to cover between Luna and Thoth in those first two DPs. Luna pointed to a lack of contribution on Thoth's part, which is just low-hanging fruit that a lot of us were discussing at the time.

Luna's perspective on Thoth was more skeptical than Kohai's by the end of DP1 and he said that he'd help push Thoth in DP2. That was basically instantly forgotten when DP2 started. I get it to some degree since Magoroth was dead and with him the push on Thoth was kind of dead in the water. The problem I have is that Luna's attention doesn't go away from him, yet he doesn't post a vote on Thoth at all throughout the DP. That includes calling out the outlier claim later in the DP and pointing back to the vote from Magoroth on Thoth the previous DP. To some degree, I get it given the whole hurricane situation as a reason for delaying a push, but past the point when he started posting more, I can't say I understand the absence of a push given that he remained Luna's top scumread throughout much of the DP.

I wouldn't say there's anything obviously wrong here, he's sussing Thoth for the same reasons many of us were. It's just odd how hands off he was throughout DP2 despite that.

WF, fair read, and I appreciate you giving the towntells their due. On being hands off with Thoth in DP2: I’d point out you did the exact same thing. In your #280 you called Thoth “the most probable person to be his scum partner,” then voted Mag1c in #288, because DP2 was the WF vs Mag1c question and we all treated that as the lynch. I was in the same spot. I did put Thoth on the spot in #254 and told him he was still a top problem we had to deal with, but I wasn’t going to split votes away from the main question on an activity read. When I had a result, I voted him.

I’ll leave balance alone. We’ve both said our piece and neither of us knows the full setup. On the JOAT point, I never suggested Kohai is a JOAT. Popular is a modifier, so what I’m suggesting is just a Popular Blackmailer. I am pointing out that we don't know what the other scum even has to say that they don't have a lawyer or something is a bit of a reach when we don't know the full set up, but we at the vest least know a vanillizer exists, and counters my role. On me never voting Thoth in DP2, that day was the WF vs Mag1c question. Town agreed one of you was lying, and that was what we needed to resolve. I pushed Thoth with questions and kept him at the top of my list, but I wasn’t going to pull the day off the main question for an activity read. I voted him the moment I had a result.

Since you’re moving to behavior, I’d point you at a couple things from your own ISO of Kohai. 1. Kohai brought up a Vanillizer on DP1, before anyone had been vanillized. Scum turned out to have exactly that. Kohai townread Thoth early in DP2, the confirmed scum, saying his behavior looked the same as last game. You called that “an even stranger choice” yourself. I had Thoth as a top suspect from DP1 on and never let up. Thoth sussed me in DP1, and I sussed him right back the whole game. If we were partners, that’s a whole lot of distancing with zero payoff.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 12:04 PM (post #64)

Read Thoth’s ISO. There’s very little mention of Luna in their posts and almost no interactions.

Same with Luna.

They avoid talking to each other or snout each other

I was on Thoth all game, he was pretty inactive for the most part but I had pressured him and asked him questions so that’s just false.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 12:04 PM (post #64)

Read Thoth’s ISO. There’s very little mention of Luna in their posts and almost no interactions.

Same with Luna.

They avoid talking to each other or snout each other

I was on Thoth all game, he was pretty inactive for the most part but I had pressured him and asked him questions so that’s just false.

Strongman was one shot, but countered three different shots (my BP and the 2X Doc). Ninja countered two separate uses of different one shot roles with one shot of its own. So, no, I don't buy that it's one shot roles getting one shot counters. I also just don't agree that the Cop would be the only role that cares about the Vanillaizer. I cared about it and I just lost a single-use BP. Anyone losing any roles "cares" about it.

The difference is there is a back up to losing a bulletproof in a world where we didn’t lynch a doctor np1, there’s not really one for cop. Vanillizer hitting me is more devastating which makes it a better counter imo.

The Inventor probably bears the least resemblance to your role out of the available active roles beyond mine, but let's go with it. The Inventor could give out a maximum of two shots of investigative roles, all to other people whom the user may or may not trust, yet yours allows you personally to investigate 3 other people and that's equivalent? I don't see it.

You don’t see a role existing in this game when that same role has existed in 90% of games in every game you’ve ever played because it’s not the same as some other random role that exists in the game? Come on Whiteflame. Mafia had plenty of things to counter me and had ways to kill me.

Yeah, and that's always been a consideration, but it's an extra factor that I can't ever be certain of. Weird that you'd say asking about Clinton is low risk when you just said he was the most obvious pick to be in this game. Generally speaking, as scum, I would almost never risk asking about one of the most likely characters to be in a game. Sure, you'd just lose out on a character claim, but that can be a sizeable loss by itself and you'd gain, at best, light intel.

Asking about Clinton’s a high risk high reward claim that lays off immediately and is better the sooner you claim it.

Alright. What I'd like to understand, then, is how either Epstein or Derschowitz would fit the profile of a Blackmailer/Lawyer/Popular. I could see either of them fitting two of those, but not the full suite of 3.

I never said scum needed a Lawyer, I said maybe. Drop it and it's just Blackmailer + Popular, and that fits Epstein perfectly. He's infamous for collecting blackmail material on powerful people, and Popular is basically his whole deal: everyone's friend, the social hub of the entire network. Two roles, both on the nose for him. Claiming Clinton is a good cover for that. What I'd really like you to weigh is #57, since you haven't touched it. Kohai's very first post of DP3 was "almost certain it's wf." If I'm scum, me, Thoth and Kohai win the game right there, no claims needed. Instead I claimed cop and handed you a guilty on my own partner. Every one of my results has flipped exactly as I said. Balance arguments cut both ways. That one doesn't.

Anyways getting ready for bed. If I am hammered before I wake up, GG's I guess.

Its a little worrying that whiteflame doesn't seem to be suspicious of kohai at all here. I am getting the vibe that he might already have his mind made up here lol