Magoroth

Gg.

Lmao

I’ll be replying in case you have anything to ask me, preferably not bullshit like “I know you’re acting Towny but actually you could be an impulsive player that likes to play dangerously regardless of alignment”.

for now I’ve exhausted my brain cells, unless I go and case Whiteflame’s entire game up to this point or look for distancing/fake bussing between him and Shining (here’s hoping there’s no distancing between me and Shining)

by the way Wryly, not that it helps my case or anything, but if I didn’t know you were Town, I’d be scumreading you for saying “you like to play impulsively” and all that shit. it doesn’t look like an actual read, more like scumpaint. do you even believe I am scum?

Unrelated, but I’m at the train station and there’s an insane person screaming at the top of her lungs 😐

If you do a site search for “sensor”, you get one random BS claim “sensor cop bulletproof” or something and then one gamr where it is a claim made by player, from April of this year. And MS is quite active so this role is by no means common. I wasn’t in that game, either

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=14542345#p14542345

It’s not a common role there by any means, that’s for sure.

Oh so IT is on the Wiki. Well rip.

but if you check the latest games this year on MS (never played there before), it wasn’t in any game I played in, at least

I cannot even check the MS wiki because the site is down. lol

I suppose if the host was exceptionally evil he would add Godfather and/or Miller into the mix as well, but its a little crazy, although not impossible.

not the case this game, just thinking about possibilities

and you are right I am experienced, but this role is not common on /MS/SC2, the sites I played on. I suppose you’re gonna have to trust me on this, but I’ll double check the MS wiki (it 100% doesn’t exist on sc2)

okay that makes sense, then I have to somehow convince you this setup is real.

think from the perspective of a host. he is not God and can make mistakes. I can see a host giving scum Ninja and Redirector vs Cop/Tracker, then adding a Sensor to the town that gets accurate results. it sorta makes sense to put these roles, the hope obviously is for the cop and tracker to get bullshit results, or at least POTENTIALLY bullshit results, and Sensor to get accurate ones.

it’s rather creative setup design. Sensor can see completely different things than the Cop and the Tracker. making all investigatives doubt each other’s results.

blame that on poor communication with the host. I wasn’t sure which questions to ask, nor how to interpret the answers I was given.

so basically I was told results I get are 100% reliable. Then I asked the host if its possible to see 1 scum on the lynch when in fact there were 0 or 2 and he at first gave me the first answer he gave me at start. then we got into “you are immune to manipulation” and “you are affected by Miller and Godfather”.

obviously, the reason the host said this is because those two roles aren’t in the game

Just try to ignore the claims for a second. Read without mech and you can find me as Town pretty easily. It is only my claim, which is true, that fucks me over.

if you don’t look at me with red tinted glasses, my behaviour makes perfect sense as Town who is afraid of being wrong and given an unfamiliar role, on a new site. like if you just try to set aside your suspicion for a second, I am pretty straightforward and not exactly hard to read.

on the other hand, ask yourself, again, which claim is obviously more advantageous: mine or Whiteflame’s? why would a bodyguard even claim actually instead of saying “I am not an investigative”? Golden rule is you never claim as protective.

you claim at MyLo which we weren’t at. a real bodyguard stays hidden and doesn’t claim in the hopes of protecting an important role; he could’ve taken a bullet instead of some other role, like for instance, you or Thoth.

have you never lied before? liars usually try to avoid flat out lying and try to find ways around by stating things like “I cannot have done this” instead of a crystal clear lie like “I did not do this”

And, do you think as a new player I risk my neck out by claiming a role I didn’t even know existed? I wouldn’t fakeclaim a role thag I don’t even know to use, nor ask any of the questions I asked. I’m not that bloody erratic as scum to fakeclaim a role and then doubt its results, I got a lot of flak especially from Mag1c over my mistrust of my results.

it’d be way safer for me to claim something easy like Doctor or something. It’s not like there’s as many questions to ask about that as about a Sensor, less opportunity to slip.

We don’t need any protective roles with three investigatives. The setup is weirdly balanced by the fact that it seems townsided, only it isn’t. It’s designed to make town mistrust each other.

it is like this on purpose. It’s an intentionally WIFOMMY setup which isn’t in our favour.

ask yourself this. Which fakeclaim is safer and easier to make, Bodyguard or Sensor? Neither our roles are proven; at least mine is proven partially correct thus far because Shining was scum, and I called out that PoE way before we decided to lynch shining.

So you think I magically knew all this time that we make it into the final three and masterminded some kinda plan that would only get me townread if somehow happened to mention the Kohai/Thoth NKs (both of which look good for you in a kinda superficial way and not for me) and then use the least likely argument possible, knowing ahead of time it would sound like a bunch of bs?

So you think I magically knew all this time that we make it into the final three and masterminded some kinda plan that would only get me townread if somehow happened to mention the Kohai/Thoth NKs (both of which look good for you in a kinda superficial way and not for me) and then use the least likely argument possible, knowing ahead of time it would sound like a bunch of bs?

“Both of which he dismisses as irrelevant"

FMPOV, actually, everything you say is irrelevant anyway because it’s bullshit. But I’ll bite. I don’t even know if I would perform the NK or not, I do like WIFOMY NKs so I’ll grant you that, but I wouldn’t kill Thoth last night if I actually thought you were Bodyguard, which apparently scum!me would have to believe since you’d probably be telling the truth D3, I know I was.

it’s kinda useless for me to speculate on what I would do and wouldn’t do as scum, and what NKs I would even perform, I have’t thought about it because I’m not scum. If the argument is “Magoroth would NK X because [...]”, I can neither “invalidate” nor even engage with that argument because 1. I did not do it 2. I haven’t been in the business of NKing, and the world we live in would be completely different if I actually was scum.

if we play this game, then the reason you NK’d Thoth and Kohai is obvious, Thoth didn’t trust you, Kohai was probably in part a fear kill and in part because it narrowed the PoE, it was a ballsy move on your part because it brings us to the obvious “I can’t be scum because I’m narrowing my own PoE”, which kinda worked in your favour.

you claim however that I killed Kohai because it scum painted YOU TWO? Why in the world would I do that then doubt my own results? I was prepared to lynch outside of [Kohai, Mag1cman, Whiteflame] yesterday, I was uneasy with Thoth being away after being townread. Why in the world would I narrow the PoE then suggest my results may be bullshit anyway?

How can it not shift substantially when I’m a bloody sensor, there’s a confirmed Cop, and he has a green check on the scum? Apparently Whiteflame is blatantly ignoring the fact that it HAS to shift substantially regardless of my alignment, if I’m town it obviously has to shift and he knows this, he’s just going for the “OH MY GOD MAGOROTH IS INCONSISTENT”, it’s called getting new information.

“There’s nothing for me to engage with"

It’s not really designed to engage with you, it’s designed to discredit the discreditor which is you, why would I engage with confirmed scum lmao?

Actually, 2-3PM UTC, but that doesn’t matter that much.

For the record, I will travelling tomorrow between 6am and roughly 4pm UTC, so I will not be available at that time.

If you want me to enter a call for my defense, I will do so. But not if it’s vs Whiteflame. You should ask both of us to case ourselves as Town individually. Trivial for me because I know I’m Town, not so easy for scumbag Whiteflame here because he’s scum and he will probably have to try to discredit me, make something up, or throw some smoke and mirrors that doesn’t actually talk about himself but compare himself to me or one of the other players in the game (like Shining).

By the way, I kinda told you to Lynch me yesterday and it wasn’t a bluff. Now we’re at LyLo and you have to somehow probably go against your intuition here and Lynch Whiteflame, then we both win. At the risk of being an ass, you were wrong about Mag1cman and Whiteflame, I tried to get you to vote Whiteflame yesterday. I should’ve tried to convince you harder yesterday, but I don’t like the possibility of being wrong so I gave it a rest and just voted Mag1cman. Now we’re stuck in this shitty situation we cannot get out of.

So, Wryly, you’re the one who has to break the stalemate. You either believe me and we win, or you believe scumbag Whiteflame here and lynch me. If there’s anything you want me to answer, preferably none of his BS because he’s going to try to manipulate you, I’ll answer it.

"

I'm just going to go through and address the major points.

First, I cannot possibly be the GF and Magoroth knows it. If he really is the Sensor, then someone between me, Kohai and Mag1c either must be scum or must have been Framed (as he mentioned last DP). He's discarded the latter option (fairly, since only Wryly could have done it and both of us have every reason to townread her) and focused on me. Kohai and Mag1c flipped town. If I'm the GF, Magoroth's result would have said there were 0 scum on the lynch. I'm in a similar position to Mag1c last DP where the circumstances required for me to be scum are rather specific: I could have manipulated Wryly's result (she copped me innocent) and I would also have failed to manipulate Magoroth's result. In a game where there is apparently both a Cop and a Sensor, the idea that scum only has a response to one (the Redirector he accuses me of being wouldn't do anything against a Sensor) is pretty ridiculous. By contrast, Magoroth has no results on him, and thus has the potential to be just about anything, including a GF.

“I cannot possibly GF"

First off, I’m going to start by saying nothing you say matters to me personally because it’s obviously not designed to convince me, I know you’re scum because otherwise Wryly would’ve hammered me. It’s my job to convince her to make the right decision, and I can do that by 1) defending myself and convincing her I’m Town, and 2) discrediting you when you’re out to discredit me. Which you are doing. By doing the following: claiming the circumstances are EXTREMELY specific for you to be scum. This is just something you made up. Who cares how “specific” the circumstances for you to be scum have to be? This is manipulation. You are NOT saying you aren’t scum, you are saying that you should not be scum. No 1. you are not even flat out saying “I’m not scum”, you are saying “I cannot be scum”, which is not only a lie (I could be a scum from Wryly’s perspective and even admitted as such), it is also manipulation. Someone who isn’t scum would just state it, scumbag. You’re not doing it. I will flat out do it, as I’ve already done it before: I AM NOT SCUM.

“The idea that scum only has a response to one is pretty ridiculous"

Sensor is kinda hit or miss, my guess is you guys were told a Sensor existed and were careful not to vote together. That renders my results less useful, but still 100% reliable (as in the information is guaranteed to be factual).

From a setup perspective, Bleeder + BG doesn’t really make much sense, and I said as much (but at the time it was because I thought the Bleeder role card was possibly tailored). What does make sense is to give Town two roles that are kinda meh (Tracker + Cop), and one real investigative (me).

Redirector further makes sense because most roles in this game that belong to Town, that are of actual consequence, like Hated, Sensor, and Governor, cannot be manipulated. Redirector is very obviously meant to deal with the Cop and the Tracker. Tracker is less relevant because you guys have plenty of roles to make us doubt results - like that Tailor thing, Ninja and Redirector. It’s pretty in-theme for this deception heavy setup, for scum to have so many ways of messing with us. Well, obviously with the Exception of the Governor, Hated and Sensor. These roles all share the same theme - we deal with lynches. My role fits with the setup, you’re a random bodyguard in a setup with a fucking Bleeder, 9p, Cop/Tracker with Ninja. My role fits far better than yours does.

"Second, I made the case very clearly yesterday that my scumread on Magoroth was chiefly mechanical. I said that my behavioral read and only my behavioral read on Magoroth was town. Magoroth is new to the site, so I've been taking every behavioral read with a big grain of salt. "

Yes, you said this before and I already replied to it. Behaviour trumps mech every time. I townread the Cop even though mechanically I should’ve scumread her because Cop + Sensor + Tracker is ridiculously imbalanced. Well, that’s what I thought at the time anyway. It’s not that imbalanced with Redirector + Ninja/Tailor.

"But let's talk about that mechanical read. Magoroth responds to one element of that mechanical read by arguing that Thoth could have been scum. He obviously wasn't. Given that Wryly hasn't voted yet when she could just get a mislynch and win the game now if she was scum, and given Thoth's flip, it's clear Magoroth was dead wrong with regards to his argument of there being a secret Framer. Somehow he turns that around on me and says it was TMI to point out that that highly specific scenario was unlikely? Or that mentioning the Redirector, something Mag1c spent a lot of time talking about last DP, is somehow a TMI slip? Really?"

No, I was wrong with the specifics, Framer, I told you I’m not very good at setup spec yesterday. I was still right about scum having manipulation roles. Wanna know why I was wrong? Because I was Town. I think it’s a braindead inference to see you = Town by Wryly means there must be a redirector, and if I was scum I could’ve made that argument instead of going off about Framers. And yes it is a TMI slip because you’re redirector :)

"Magoroth also talks about is balance in this game if his role is Sensor and he's not doing himself any favors here. He points to the setup of "Sensor/Tracker/Cop vs Ninja+Redirector" and says it's "somewhat balanced" even though the odd role out there is... the Sensor. Ninja and Redirector do jack shit to a Sensor. He also doesn't address the big gaping hole in that setup, something he seemed to be acknowledging multiple times last DP when he kept saying that the setup does not make sense if I'm scum (267, 273, 314, 338). This effort to try and justify a clearly unbalanced setup flies in the face of his own logic."

Yes, obviously I said this setup makes no sense if you’re scum, but that was because there was already a 100% guilty on my side on you. And I thought if you were scum you weren’t immune to detection, so I thought the setup had to be 100% legit, no Framer, no nothing. The answer, that I somehow didn’t think of is that you’re Redirector and had the power to clear yourself as Town by manipulating the Cop. I already said I’m not very good at setup speculation so your goal here is to twist my poor understanding of setup stuff and make it look like I’m scummy.

"Finally, he mentions the decision to kill Thoth. A couple of important elements here that he's glossing over. 

He forgets that I'm the BG and that he had good reason to believe I'd protect Wryly. Magoroth was very blatant last DP about me being his focus probably because Thoth would have been a much more difficult target to get lynched if it came down to the two of them. That's not to mention that, since he would have some means to manipulate Wryly's role, he was probably counting on her copping him and using that as leverage going into the final DP. "

In that case, I would leave everyone alive. Why force a 2v1 in which I’m sure to die? Thoth could’ve helped me because he trusted me more than you.

"Also, much as he's very focused on this lynch, he doesn't mention Kohai's NK NP2. As I pointed out last DP, that NK makes absolutely no sense for me, since it reduced POE based on Magoroth's results down to just me and Mag1c. He even called this out himself, saying how scum shooting within POE would automatically paint a target on them (449). The only person who stood to benefit from reducing POE was Magoroth because he ensured that the choices appeared obvious: just lynch these two and the game is over. Love the strategy, but if we're focused on WIFOM, Magoroth has plenty of reason to have performed both of these NKs."

Except I didn’t even trust my own results and was prepared to lynch outside the PoE yesterday? I literally still doubted my own results yesterday and was going “I think Thoth might be scum”, you are the one who convinced me Thoth couldn’t be scum yesterday! This looks more like TMI on your part that my results were correct yesterday, hoping to buy yourself some town cred that way, perhaps. Or maybe just arguing for the sake f arguing.

In what world do I discredit my own results if I’m trying to force a 2v2 vs you? I’m not even convinced killing Kohai is the correct decision for scum!me. I narrow the PoE, I’d rather keep it open and kill Thoth or Wryly. That way Town has little info.

You just pulled a big brain risky move, and I respect it, but you’re still scum.

Also - I wouldn’t kill Thoth if I was scum here. He seemed to be town reading me, or at least trusting Whiteflame and Mag1cman less than he trusts me. This kill benefits Whiteflame.

Yes, I know, WIFOM, but this really isn’t the time for WIFOM. It really only benefits Whiteflame. I don’t kill the person who can help me make it through endgame. You survived because you townread the scum.

And, you say the setup seems unlikely, I don’t actually think it’s that unlikely. Think about it from my perspective as a Sensor, assume I am Town for a second here.

Obviously, whatever Whiteflame’s role is, he is not Bodyguard. He has to be Redirector and he probably made you visit yourself, that or some hidden bus driver. So the setup isn’t actually that nuts in this case, Sensor/Tracker/Cop vs Ninja+Redirector is somewhat balanced, it also means my role is the only Investigative whose results are 100% guaranteed to be accurate. So, the setup is nowhere near as unlikely as you might think.

Yesterday I asked Whiteflame why the hell he considered Thoth and you to be nearly confirmed Town, because that didn’t make sense, he gave me some jazz about Redirector being unlikely (pretty hilarious considering he has to be Redirector, I should’ve picked up on that TMI slip), it’s actually TMI-ish because he knows I’m a Sensor and figured you really were confirmed Town due to my results. Ask yourself this, why would Town!Whiteflame think you’re ALMOST confirmed Town? The mech is really weak lol.

I townread both you and Thoth but, yes, YOU I had as very sure Town, but not Thoth. Thoth I could still see being scum. Because I’m not scum lol.

So, yes, it’s Whiteflame.

From your perspective, there is 100% a scum between me and Whiteflame, unless you’re scum and choosing not to hammer for some weird shenanigans for some reason.

I made a case on Whiteflame yesterday, and (it’s obviously) correct from my perspective. Whiteflame has been very indecisive yesterday, you should check how he kept giving reasons to be town reading me then actually SCUMREADING ME or saying he will vote me. This is not normal town behaviour. He is scum, check literally last 2-3 pages of the previous day phase, it’s what Whiteflame has been doing lol.

“Behaviourally he seems frustrated Town"

> proceeds to vote Magoroth

tell me that makes any sense? I am literally Sensor, and from my perspective you should almost certainly be scum (at least up until today), yet you were literally bottom of my suspect list for most of this game. and that’s from BEHAVIOUR.

this is ignoring the fact that he voted one of his townreads, which makes zero sense