Alyssa

So if we go back to #503 from last DP, I soft claimed that I could do things outside of recruitment and that part of my role was confirmable. Below is the full claim (paraphrased to avoid getting yelled at):

I'm Go Gunhee, the Beloved Chairman

I'm the Chairman of the Hunter's Association so I inspire confidence in a bunch of people. My composure and belief in humanity pushes others to exceed their limits. Because people believe in me, they fight harder as a result.

I have two abilities:

First is called Widely Admired - I require one additional vote beyond the normal majority to be eliminated during the day phase. Once this ability triggers, the vote count resets and this ability is consumed.

Second is called Rally the Hunters - Each night, I can target one player and, if they have a night action they can take, they can use that night action an additional time that night.

First ability is the one I said was confirmable. Second one was the thing I can do at nights that doesn't require recruitment.

Last night I visited no one. I asked Mikal if my ability would work for guild recruitment and he said that it wouldn't because it's "it's own mechanic", so I didn't see a good target to motivate. With the entire gimmick of this game being that a lot of people don't actually have abilities before they get recruited, I didn't want to just target someone who I thought might be a PR without knowing if they had been recruited yet or not. In the future, happy to cooperate with Wylted or Luna to coordinate who I motivate in whatever manner they feel is safe to divulge.

God damnit...

Good news, we found scum.

Bad news, I feel like I'm about to pay the price for us finding scum.

Gimme a couple of minutes to write up my pre-emptive defense of myself here. I'm gonna just full claim in it with night actions.

Likely one of the inactives or just VTNLing. Small chance I could be convinced for a Pie wagon but I was waiting for this NP to have time to dig deeper into his posts since the Thoth wagon is looking pretty likely.

Off to go back to working on job hunting things. I'll be around later tonight.

Just as an FYI, your link in #1036 broke.

Important to note that my vote on Mestari was my RVS vote from post #3 .

Never voted for Kohai, either. Kohai's in my town pile for the moment.

This post is purely to test the new feature Savant implemented. I should be able to put a post number up and it'll create a hyperlink to it in the post.

Like so. #1001

I think there's merit to the idea of getting as many PRs active as possible to increase the quality/quantity of information we can get from nights. Short term we'll go into DP2 in a pretty similar position as we are in now, but the benefit will increase over time as more and more PRs get recruited. Hard to say if it maths out to a faster solve than just playing normally and voting when reasonable, and I'm also not sure it's an idea that's incompatible with just playing the game normally anyway (there's certainly enough people that voting today isn't going to significantly reduce the number of PRs in the game assuming we vote a townie).

But, again, happy to also vote today. My ideal target is Thoth. Is that agreeable for you or do you want to go with a different wagon?

He was way better at video games than me in general, we played war zone, StarCraft and a few others and I was a like kiddie playing with a pro lol.

Same. That Mestari kid just needs to go touch grass or something lmao.

As far as I'm concerned, the TP bit is only mildly relevant in that we need to know if they can joint win with town. So if you're TP and you intend to win with the town, now would be the time to say so. I can't speak for everyone else, but I'll be much less likely to be understanding if it comes out in later DPs and you try to say you want to win with the town.

Still interested in hearing more from people who haven't talked much. Otherwise, my ideal scenario is probably VTNL to allow guilds to recruit more people? Certainly amenable to voting today, with my preferred target being Thoth as my primary scum lead. Open to be pitched alternate wagons if a Thoth vote isn't likely to happen.

Im not particularly good at shooters and I remember you going hard on me for sucking one time in reserve and I think I crashed out hard back on you and I’m pretty sure that was the last time we had ever talked lol. It sounds like I read way more into that interaction than you did though lol. My bad.

Some good natured roasting is just par for the course with Tim. You should've heard some of the things he's said to me when we play League...though when he was teaching me Deadlock recently he was much more patient.

TP was also my interpretation of this. The question just becomes are they solely their own win con or can they joint win?

Off for now to go back to my BG3 run. Spam ping me on the debatecraft mafia thread if you guys need me to pop back in.

I said earlier that one of my abilities is potentially kinda-sorta-confirmable, or, if it isn't now, then it could be depending on how things play out. Let's say that I claimed information about your guild that I couldn't have known unless I knew it from an ability or shared scum chat with your recruit. If I did, do you trust your recruits enough that you would see this as confirming me, or would you suspect a mole? Just a yes/no question.

What is this post even saying????

How's my RVS vote an argument against me, again?

Tim is the walking definition of a tease.

Well you opened up in post 3 pushing the narrative that Mestari must be scum.

It was an RVS vote.

401 you TR Mestari without reasoning and also cast suspicion on Thoth without reasoning.

Pie (or Luna? Might've been Luna, actually), asked for reads from people so I provided my reads before going to bed. I'm not going to spend every post elaborating on every detail if it's not necessary to avoid making these DPs longer than they need to be. You're always free to ask me to elaborate on something if you want details.

Following up after you are very focused on my attention of you which feels very survival focused.

In part that's fair. The brunt of it is I want to put you in my town pile for the reasons I stated just a few posts ago. So I'd like to also be in yours so that we can collaborate more freely to find scum. My vote's still pressuring, but if I can also spend some time to answer your concerns, it'll help things long term. So short term survival focus will help us find scum faster long term, if that makes sense.

For a clarifying question what in your head evolved your read on Mestari? This would help me quite a bit sorting you.

That's going to be hard to definitively point to. I've known Mestari for ~13-14 years. It's largely gut based in that, from my experience and knowledge of him, I'd wager his behavior this game is more likely to be town!Mestari than scum!Mestari.

It came off more as a defense of herself than a defense of Thoth.

Why would I defend Thoth? I'm scumreading him. I just don't want to get caught in the crossfire if/when Thoth flips scum.

I wanted you to elaborate on the reason for placing your vote on me. At the time, the reasoning you provided was...weird in terms of justifying pressure and so I wanted to get some clarity as to what I was being pressured for.

Thoth is still on my scum radar for his behavior post 'slip'. He hasn't done much to dissuade that opinion yet. Don't know enough about the claim he presented to weigh in too much on if it makes sense or not, but I'll defer to the opinion of people who've watched the show that it doesn't make sense.

Beyond that we're getting a little speculative given the narrative of the DP has been heavily focused on Thoth/Myself/Inactives. Slight scum tingles from Pie potentially trying to capitalize on an opportunistic push against me, but the rest of his behavior lines up with his typical behavior regardless of affiliation, so I'm open to this being wrong.

If I have to strictly pick three, I think there's merit to potentially picking into Casey's pushing of Luna to be more open with recruit intentions as scum motivated, but beyond that they're pretty null.

As far as town goes, small town read to Mestari via things I've already said. If there's anyone who I'm willing to sheep just because I'm busier this game than last with IRL things, I know a town!Mestari is capable of 1v9ing a game, so short of good evidence being presented to make me question my gut read I'm fine tossing him in the town pile for now.

I also get town vibes from Kohai, though I want more definitive stances and analysis from them before I'm willing to lock that one in. But overall they're outwardly agreeing with a lot of the points I agree with, so at least from a mindset perspective there's reason to like that slot.

And, again if you're forcing me to defend three here, I'm willing to put you in the town pile for now. Given the clear air of suspicion around my slot, there's plenty of justification for you just ignoring my analysis and focusing on collaborating with people in your town pile. The fact that you're seeking to engage with me makes me think you're genuinely trying to find scum.

I've been here and answered Pie's questions. If you had questions I missed them. What would you like me to answer?

What type of career are you in

Retail/customer service primarily, but atm I'm just looking for anything that'll cover the bills.

Home now (the interview went pretty well, thanks for asking). Analysis to follow:

Mestari

I already mentioned a brief conclusion of my read on him in an earlier post, but I'm fine elaborating on it.

Important context to understand is that yeah, I'd like to think I know Mestari decently well, both on a personal level and on a mafia-related level. We've played multiple games together in a variety of affiliation set ups, we've talked about the game pretty extensively outside of playing it. We've hydra'd together. I won't say we see eye to eye on how the game should be played, but I have a decent understanding of how he approaches the game.

My read on Mestari is primarily vibes based at this point and that's due almost entirely to suspicion. I've been a fan of most of the things Mestari has said so far in the DP, and if I were to evaluate this game in a vacuum with name plates turned off, my read on that slot would be a step under Luna and Wylted. But I'm also intimately aware of just how large Mestari's range is as a player in terms of town behavior vs. scum behavior. He very much is a player capable of emulating his town behavior as scum, so on a personal level I have to temper that a bit. Do I think this DP is an instance of him emulating his town behavior rather than being authentic? Gun to my head, no I think he's probably being authentic. But Tim's a skilled enough player that I'm not going to assume it as a given.

VTNLing

I get the argument that Mestari is making here and for the most part I think it has merit. If most of the game is locked behind not being recruited into a guild yet, we should focus on enabling town PRs, which makes sense given that the large lobby is gonna mean we have a longer game length. Personally undecided if that outweighs the value of guiding existing PRs through the info we gain from a flip, or if both plans can't coexist to some extent, but I'm willing to believe that Mestari's put more thought into his statement than I have and that he wouldn't say it if it didn't benefit him. Given that I'm leaning town on him, things that benefit him probably benefit town too.

Guild recruitment

Generally a fan of leaders staying mum about who they've recruited unless it's absolutely critical to reveal that information. Think pressuring guild leaders to either reveal who they attempted to recruit or who they plan to recruit is just painting targets for scum if they want to slow down recruitment.

Do you find [the Thoth/Luna interaction] scummy? Why or why not?

i'll go re-read it now, but purely off memory I'd say that there's some scum reasoning for Thoth to want to resist claiming in that scenario if he needed more time to decide on a fake-claim or coordinate with the rest of the scum team. If you want more specific than that, give me a bit to re-read it.

I have thoughts on Mestari, VTNLing and guild leaders, but given that I'm busy with job hunting right now I can't be as active as I was last game. You're free to think I'm lazy, but you're also free to bite me.

I'm still walking home from my interview. I'll address each when I get home.

Can you elaborate more on why you voted me? What about me calling you out was scummy?

Eh no one else seems to be on so I'mma go back to my BG3 run. I'll check in every now and then before I have to go to my job interview.

Would Thoth know that Mikal is familiar with Mestari, though? Also, it's weird that you're providing this cover for him. If this was the actual explanation, surely Thoth himself would have said so. But his actual explanation for himself is "my brain wasn't braining".

Would he have to know that Mikal knew him? Mestari's not someone who does anything quietly, and given the, ahem, interesting conversation we had in the public discord the night before, I think it's fair to think that someone who wasn't familiar with Mestari would ask the guy running the game if they knew who they just let in.

Also I'm saying it now because Thoth's had ample time to claim this cover at this point and hasn't. If he wants to do so now, I'm fine with just skipping the rest of the discussion and hammering.

Your profile is based btw.

Still happy with where my vote is at.

Small edit for clarity.

Still happy with where my post is at. Re-reading the Thoth/Luna interaction over the night didn't give me any reason to think that pressure here is being misplaced, though I want to see more from people who haven't posted before I say let's hammer and go to N1.

I'll also do some soft claiming to help appease suspicion on me. I can do things outside of being recruited, and there's a part of my role PM that's confirmable.

Okay back and mostly caught up (barring my half-asleep 5am post earlier).

Even though Helz hasn't shown back up to answer my questions, other's people's interpretations of what Helz said matched my initial interpretation so I might as well address it and if Helz wants to clarify more when he shows back up that's great.

Alyssa is a higher level of my paranoia on this subject. Everyone has posted but me? Interesting that I am on their mind while that’s not the case. Im going to hold off before saying more but I will vote here and eat some popcorn watching what others see on them.

I'm assuming this comment is referencing #380 from me where I say

Given that pretty much everyone has at least poked their head in enough to skim the DP (save Helz), I think we are pretty much treating Luna and Wylted as town confirmed at this point given the lack of CC (scum would be suicidal to CC them anyway).

Ignoring the generalizing of "pretty much everyone" here, I signal out Helz because he's the one person who's largely an unknown. Whether on DDO, DART, or here, I've either played with everyone in the lobby or can go read their games on here to figure out how they play. Sure, Airmax/Whiteflame/Vader/I think Casey as well? had also not posted by the time I made this post. Couldn't care less about them to be completely frank. I want to see stuff from the one person who I have zero information on. So I called him out. It worked and created engagement.

But barring that explanation, pressuring me here is weird and it's where my confusion really comes from. In what world is anything I said AI in either direction? It's not like the stated reason for pressure had anything to do with the rest of the suspicion that was being thrown around regarding me (more on that in a sec). It's just completely out of thin air, slap a vote on it and let it ride. Which is why I wanted clarification on the vote.

Regarding the actual sus being thrown at me, there's a pretty clear person that's being left off the list of people who's familiar with Mestari on a mafia level and a personal level that matches me (which I hinted at in #386, though I didn't spell it out to not provide Thoth with a get-out-of-jail-free card in case he is scum). Mikal (i.e. the person hosting this game) is just as familiar with Mestari as I am, both on a mafia level and a personal level (arguable as to who knows Mestari better per se, but it's a hair that's not worth splitting for this context). All it'd take is one question in Thoth's role pm of "Hey who's this Mestari guy who's blowing up the discord with sex jokes" for some level of understanding to be imparted. So sure, if Thoth flips scum then I could be scum by association, but there are other explanations to this.